Multi-Angle DVDs... and Blu-Ray?

[blazin-j]

Hello,

Sorry if this is not placed in the right subforum. I wasn't sure which one it best belonged in, so feel free to move it if necessary.

I was wondering what features are considered standard features for DVD and Blu-Ray or what are "extra" features made available by certain manufacturers (if that makes sense).

My questions are:

1. Is the multi-angle viewing a standard feature of all DVD players or is it just an option on certain (i.e., more expensive) players? I wanted to author a multi-angle DVD but I did not know if this feature would be available to all viewers or would be dependent upon the type of DVD player they had.

2. Is there a software program for the PC that will let you view multi-angle DVDs?

3. My Samsung Blu-Ray player's remote has a BonusView button on it. Is this the same feature as Multi-Angle, just with a new marketing term, or is it something completely different? My Blu-Ray remote doesn't have a multi-angle button on it.

4. Is Multi-Angle available on Blu-Ray discs? And is it a standard feature that will be available to all viewers regardless of their Blu-Ray player?

5. Is there a software program for the PC that will let you view multi-angle Blu-Ray discs?

6. Will all Blu-Ray players be able to play multi-angle DVDs (not Blu-Ray) or is this dependent upon the type of Blu-Ray player? In other words, if someone dumped their DVD player and upgraded to a Blu-Ray player, could they play a multi-angle DVD on the Blu-Ray player?

Thanks so much!

[Baldrick]

1. All players supports it.
2. PowerDVD, WinDVD. I don't think VLC and other free players supports it.

[Case]

6. Will all Blu-Ray players be able to play multi-angle DVDs (not Blu-Ray) or is this dependent upon the type of Blu-Ray player? In other words, if someone dumped their DVD player and upgraded to a Blu-Ray player, could they play a multi-angle DVD on the Blu-Ray player?

Not many commercial DVDs use multi-angle. The only ones that comes to mind are the U2 Elevation 2001 - Live from Boston and the language screens in Disney DVDs. The biggest draw-back for multi-angle use in DVDs is the low bitrate for each angle, as the bitrate of all angles combined must stay below the DVD maximum bitrate.
The author/producer of the multi-angle DVD should provide a menu interface for selecting the angle, so that its use doesn't depend on the Angle button on the DVD player remote. When that criterion is met, the Blu-ray player will have no problem with such a DVD, even if the remote won't facilitate.

[Case]

3. My Samsung Blu-Ray player's remote has a BonusView button on it. Is this the same feature as Multi-Angle, just with a new marketing term, or is it something completely different? My Blu-Ray remote doesn't have a multi-angle button on it.

BonusView is the Blu-ray Profile 1.1 that adds optional picture-in-picture functionality, e.g. for commentary purposes. Obviously, that functionality won't be available to Profile 1.0 players.

[blazin-j]

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies. I appreciate your expertise. I wanted to reply to a few comments:

The biggest draw-back for multi-angle use in DVDs is the low bitrate for each angle, as the bitrate of all angles combined must stay below the DVD maximum bitrate.

Very true. The way I planned to get around this limit was by using a DVD9 instead of a DVD5... and a DL BDR if enough space was not available on a single layer BDR.

BonusView is the Blu-ray Profile 1.1 that adds optional picture-in-picture functionality

I'm not "up" on the different profile types of BR players, but it sounds like BonusView is something completely different than Multi-Angle. Since my Samsung remote does not have a Multi-Angle button on it, I wonder if it'll play switch angles on a multi-angle dvds. I understand your comment of overcoming this by authoring it in a way the user can choose the angle from the menu, but I was hoping to keep it more flexible than this and allowing the user to change angle any time they wanted to while the movie was playing, as opposed to requiring a selection from the menu at the beginning.

Hopefully some others will see this post and provide their ideas and expertise too.

[guns1inger]

Using DVD9 does not affect the bitrate limitation. The combined bitrate limit of 10800 kbps is independent of DVD5 or DVD9 use. The reason for going to DVD9 is file size, which while affected by the nu,ber of angles and the birate used to encode them, is not a multi-angle limitation in itself.

That said, while there are limitation on multi-angle authoring, you can use higher bitrates than is being suggested here. I have authored multi-angle DVDs using DVD Lab Pro. This limitations include - must be encoded with closed GOPs, but have the same GOP lengths, bitrate no higher than 7500 kbps. I used 2 pass VBR encoding maxing at 7500 for a three angle disc and had no playback issues.

[blazin-j]

OK, I understand what you guys are saying now about the bitrate limitation. I was only contemplating using one additional (second) angle, but still I see where the bitrate limit could be problematic.

Guns1inger, if I understand you correctly, each of the three angles were encoded at a 7500 bitrate? I was wondering what codec you used to pull that off and keep the play quality decent?

[manono]

Eh? That question is somewhat misinformed? When making a DVD the codec used is MPEG-2. You set the max bitrate (7500 in this case) in the encoder.

The max bitrate for each angle (video + audio + subs +overhead) can go up to 8 Mbps. The GOPs have to be closed and all have the same structure. Other than that there aren't any differences between encoding for multi-angle as compared to a regular encode for DVD.

http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/helppro2/index.html?multiple_angles.htm

[guns1inger]

I took the question to mean which encoder - I used HCEnc for this. This was added to a couple of VHS transfers that I did a while back. One angle was the original unrestored VHS footage, one was a split screen of the original and the restored footage, and the final angle was the restored footage

[Cornucopia]

To clarify a few things:

I spelled some of this out before in this thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/122680-how-to-make-a-multiangle-dvd

Because Multi-angle uses a PACKET SKIPPING method, it doesn't suffer from the assumed limitation of the combined bitrates of all angles staying within the max payload bitrate. However, there is overhead with the packets, and because of the 1x speed of the drive and the low buffer spec of the DVD VM, there are still bitrate limitations:

1 angle = <9.8 Mbps
2-4 angles = < 8 Mbps
5-8 angles = < 7.8Mbps
9 angles = < 7.3 Mbps

This is taken from DVD Demystified, and Spruce and Scenarist manuals.

re: Drive compatibility...
Multi-angle is part of the MANDATORY CORE spec for both DVD-Video and Blu-Ray Video. Therefore, ALL licensed players (hardware or software) must support it (Profile 1.0 and onward).
On Blu-Ray, it is accomplished in almost the identical way as in DVD-Video, except that the switching is much better in BR because of its "Out-of-Mux" features.
This Multi-angle is NOT to be confused with 2nd Video/PIP. That allows for multiple video streams to be simultaneously displayed/overlayed. Standard MA does not allow for this.

Scott

[blazin-j]

Thanks Scott, a lot of great info that pretty much answers all of my questions. The only thing I am confused about is how you can play a multi-angle Blu-Ray disc (or a multi-angle DVD on a Blu-Ray player) if there is no multi-angle button on the remote. I thought my Samsung Blu-Ray player was a decent model, but maybe it's just my remote? Does everyone else that owns a Blu-Ray player have a multi-angle button on their remote?

One parting question - the whole "closed GOP" thing is a bit of a mystery to me. I'm using Adobe CS4. Is there something as easy as clicking a "Closed GOP" checkbox to make it compliant or is it more involved. Not quite sure how to make my GOPs closed. In Premiere Pro, there is a place for GOP Settings when I transcode, but it only allows you to specify the number of M and N frames. I'm not up on this stuff to know exactly what those M and N frames are and how they relate to open or closed GOP. Is there a user-friendly primer available?

[Case]

Does everyone else that owns a Blu-Ray player have a multi-angle button on their remote?

I don't know about "everyone else", but mine does have an Angle button.