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  1. Member BrainStorm69's Avatar
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    OK...massive data dump. I haven't really done any analysis yet myself. I'm going to show the same screen cap from straight to the card (set up properly for black level and white levels). Then same cap through the ES10. Then same cap through ES15. So I hope everyone has a fat pipe.

    [EDIT - Important - I just realized that I have been leaving out one critical step in this. I have left out the last step of converting to rgb in Avisynth with ConvertToRGB(matrix="PC.601"). For those who don't know, this doesn't affect the graphs at all, but does affect the screen caps themselves, which have contrast stretch from being converted to RBG by Paintshop Pro. This means the screen caps show more contrast than actually exists in the video caps. I'm not sure I'm going to go to the trouble of doing this all again to correct for that. Doing so would probably take another couple of hours of work.]

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    I think I'm about done for now. Now I know why LS never does this...takes too damn much time...:P
    Last edited by BrainStorm69; 30th May 2010 at 13:14.
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  2. Member
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    Well, as I mentioned on some other posts, I got a DMR-ES15 to use it as a TBC between a JVC HR-S9800U (which, from what I read, I have to keep the TBC and DNR off) and my Canopus ADVC110.
    One question I still have is: the ES15 has TBC pass through on all inputs, but does it also have DNR on pass through?
    I read something about DNR on the specs.
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    DNR passes on ES10.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
    FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS
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  4. Originally Posted by Caple View Post
    the ES15 has TBC pass through on all inputs, but does it also have DNR on pass through?
    Yes. There are three settings: Off, Auto, On.
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  5. Member
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    Good. Thanx.
    Can't wait to receive the ES15 and the S9800U
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  6. Anyone know if Pioneer DVR-520H-S can pass through?
    I think it has "Digital TBC" whatever that is, but i hope itīs TBC.

    and Caple, where did you buy them?
    I canīt find anything without paying a fortune;S

    EDIT:

    Just found this - JVC Super VHS HR9600
    Does anyone know if it has Line TBC?
    I know it has TBC and Noise Reduction, and S-video output.
    So if it has Line TBC i may very well buy it.
    Last edited by zerowalker; 21st Feb 2012 at 22:40.
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  7. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Anyone know if Pioneer DVR-520H-S can pass through?
    I think it has "Digital TBC" whatever that is, but i hope itīs TBC.

    and Caple, where did you buy them?
    I canīt find anything without paying a fortune;S

    EDIT:

    Just found this - JVC Super VHS HR9600
    Does anyone know if it has Line TBC?
    I know it has TBC and Noise Reduction, and S-video output.
    So if it has Line TBC i may very well buy it.
    I don't know about the Pioneer DVR-520H-S.

    The JVC HR-9600U does have a line TBC though, much like the one in the Panasonic AG1980. It was a very popular deck a few years ago, and it's widely considered JVC's best S-VHS unit. AFAIK it's one of LordSmurf's favorites, and it's prominently mentioned in the VCR buying guide. However, two warnings:
    1. I've heard it's very difficult to find one in good condition...and JVC S-VHS units are notorious for breaking down badly. According to orsetto and others, JVC S-VHS decks turn into voracious tape-eating demons when they break. Even worse, failing JVC's sometimes silently degauss your tapes as they play them, and you won't even know until later that your tapes have been ruined...so make sure you play an unimportant tape through multiple times before putting anything priceless inside! You may also want to capture first using another deck, just in case...
    2. The TBC cannot be used without the DNR, and the DNR is known to significantly soften the image with temporal artifacts (moreso than the AG1980, I hear). I don't have the deck (or any JVC's), but I've seen comparison pictures. A lot of people love their image output, and others don't; it's a matter of taste, and you may have to try for yourself. If you're using this for cartoons though, I think it's likely to do far more good than harm.
    If you want a similar model without risking the first issue, you may want to look into JVC D-VHS units instead...I know I would! Their electronic circuits are just as good, but they're newer with supposedly more stable transport, and they're less dangerous to your tapes. The HM-DH30000U is known to have overheating issues though. I'm not sure about the HM-DH40000U, but the newer D-VHS units like the SR-VD400U apparently dealt with those, and I hear the HM-DH5U is supposed to be top of the line. The JVC HM-DR10000EK is an early European D-VHS model (check out this post), and I hear that one doesn't really have too many issues either. Finally, the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U (another D-VHS unit) is supposed to be very similar to the JVC D-VHS models. All of them should have S-Video output (even component output), considering D-VHS is an HD format.



    Keep in mind that all of my advice in this post is secondhand, based on cross-referencing and digesting a few thousand posts on the subject here, at AVSForum, and at digitalFAQ. I've never used any JVC units myself...I've just read a ton.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 22nd Feb 2012 at 00:55.
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  8. Ah to bad you canīt turn off the DNR, and the tape thing sounds extremely dangerous;S

    Though, i donīt think itīs the U version, as i live in Europe. donīt know if itīs any difference.

    The one who is selling says he hasnīt played more than 50 hours, and itīs pretty much been left alone, until he copied some VHS tapes to DVD recently and now wants to sell it.

    But to not be able to turn of the DNR is a big problem, as i donīt like it to remove things and soften the image to make it "look" better, as that can be solved afterwards with more delicacy.

    I donīt know about the D-VHS units though, are there any Europe versions?
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  9. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Ah to bad you canīt turn off the DNR, and the tpae thing sounds extremely dangerous;S

    Though, i donīt think itīs the U version, as i live in Europe. donīt know if itīs any difference.

    The one who is selling says he hasnīt played more than 50 hours, and itīs pretty much been left alone, until he copied some VHS tapes to DVD recently and now wants to sell it.

    But to not be able to turn of the DNR is a big problem, as i donīt like it to remove things and soften the image to make it "look" better, as that can be solved afterwards with more delicacy.

    I donīt know about the D-VHS units though, are there any Europe versions?
    You can turn off the DNR in the 9600, but you can't turn it off if you're using the TBC.

    As far as European models go, you may have read my post before the edit:
    The JVC HM-DR10000EK is an early European D-VHS model (check out this post), and I hear that one doesn't really have too many issues either.
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  10. Oh well, it seems like it will be impossible to find that version;S
    But it really is sad that you canīt turn of the DNR...
    Is there any setting to lower it extremely?
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  11. As far as I know, no...there's only an on/off switch, and it must be on if the TBC is on. Just so you know though, I think the D-VHS models share this same shortcoming. The only way I know of to use a TBC without DNR is to use an external device (DVD recorder or full-frame TBC).

    While we're on the subject of DVD recorders and TBC's, I've been playing with a Toshiba XS-34 tonight. It handles luma levels much more gracefully than my Philips DVDR3475. It doesn't create any flickering or histogram spikes whatsoever, so the picture quality seems much better in that sense. (There are a few other small differences in image quality, but nothing that can't wait for a full review.)

    However, the XS-34's TBC is MUCH weaker. The DVDR3475 is rock solid no matter what I throw at it, whereas the XS-34 only corrects horizontal jitter and waviness about 35-90% as well, depending on the magnitude of the errors in the frame. It's only slightly better than my AVT-8710 (without the artifacts though ), so it doesn't really cut it, at least not for my VHS-C tapes. I'm 99% sure I'll be able to get the DVDR3475's image quality up to the same level by adjusting the input levels with a proc amp though, so that's good news...but I'm still waiting on my proc amp to arrive. Sigh.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 22nd Feb 2012 at 02:07.
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  12. I see, well if thatīs the case then a DVD recorder is probably the way to got as it seems to be the cheapest.
    You know of any that are available in Europe?
    Or maybe any VCR with S-video output?
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  13. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about DVD recorders for Europe, but there are a few Europeans on this board, so maybe they'll be able to chip in. All I can say is, try to find out if a European version of the Philips DVDR3475/3575/3576 exists. If it does, grab that and a proc amp to fix the contrast/flickering issue, and you should be all set. If no such recorder exists though, you may just have to wait for someone with more PAL/European knowledge.

    If you can deal with a weaker TBC, the Toshiba DR-XS34 does have a slightly better Y/C comb filter than my Philips DVDR3475, so you can check around for European versions of the Toshiba DR/RD line. My knowledge of DVD recorders is limited to just those though, and it's up to you (or others) to determine whether European versions exist...

    Still, keep an eye out for the JVC HM-DR10000EK D-VHS VCR, as well as the HM-DR10000EU and HM-DR10000MS. The Panasonic NV-FS200 is the PAL version of the AG1980; you can't turn off the DNR, but it's not quite as strong as JVC models, so maybe you'll like it? I know I've heard of one particularly excellent PAL region VCR on the board, but I can't remember what it was...try searching!
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  14. I would like to not be force to get an proc amp if possible, so will hope someone with more PAL knowledge can jump in!

    Yeah will do, but the possibility is below Zero probably, High End VCR here are extremely rare, atleast i canīt find any that are up to the challenge.

    Please do, sounds like a Pearl in the ocean
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  15. Heh...you're right about finding a pearl in the ocean. Even in the US, only the Philips DVDR3475/3575/3576 has a TBC as strong as the ones in high-end VCR's, and it requires a proc amp for good results. I never wanted to get a proc amp either, but...here I am, sigh. I've learned tonight that the Toshiba models just aren't as good (although their Y/C comb filters are even better), and most DVD recorders aren't even known for any particular abilities. The Panasonic ES-10/ES-15 are known for their TBC, but they have their own image quality issues. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to find a European DVD recorder with a good TBC...so unless someone else knows, you're probably stuck looking for a high-end VCR.

    You'll have a bit more of a selection in the VCR department, but most force DNR on you, and the JVC S-VHS models are dangerous to your tapes. You might want to look into the European version of the Panasonic AG1970 though: That model has a weaker TBC than the AG1980, but it doesn't have heavy DNR, and it has S-Video. It's also supposed to have excellent tracking and reliability.

    If you're willing to take an entirely different direction and encode your captures to DV format, maybe you can look into MiniDV camcorders? A few of them are known for having great Y/C comb filters and exceptionally strong TBC's, and it might be easier to find their European counterparts. Here's a thread to help point you in that direction.
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 22nd Feb 2012 at 02:47.
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  16. Well atleast they are possible to find,S
    But doesnīt a proc amp cost a fortune?

    oh i thougth ES-10/15 where good from the screenshots above, what does i screw up?

    Hmm i donīt know, will look up about the AG1970. The TBC can be fixed afterwards, the important thing i S-video that is working correctly. and a good VCR.
    Then TBC is the problem, and to even make it worse.

    PAL got some kind of Phase-Shift thing with the Chroma Lines that totally mess up the picture (it can be worked around but i rather not have it) if the decoder doesnīt know when to change the chroma line, and my capture card doesnīt, and another one i tried didnīt either (well it didnīt even work with VCR in the end). So there probably isnīt any card out there that support it, atleast not with the ability to capture uncompressed;S
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  17. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Well atleast they are possible to find,S
    But doesnīt a proc amp cost a fortune?
    Some do, but not all. If you're tight on money, a PAL version of the Vidicraft proc amp should do the job just fine. An NTSC version just sold on ebay for $40 US a couple days ago, and I think they made PAL versions too. I'm not sure how much they'd cost today, but IF you can find a European version of the DVDR3475/3575/3576, it may be worth looking!

    Remember though that the Vidicraft proc amp is composite-only. If you're willing to use a composite connection from your VCR (or you can't find an S-Video VCR), you can hook it up like this:

    VCR -> Vidicraft proc amp over composite
    Vidicraft proc amp -> DVD3475 over composite (fixes DVDR3475 flickering/levels issue)
    DVDR3475 -> capture card over S-Video (DVD recorder separates into S-Video with a Y/C comb filter).

    The DVDR3475/3575/3576 has a decent Y/C comb filter, and I expect that it will fix your dot crawl, but you'd really have to ask someone who has used the European version if you want to know for sure (assuming it exists)...and as far as I know, nobody here has used it. If you're unwilling to take that gamble, then your only choice is to find a usable VCR with S-Video output!

    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    oh i thougth ES-10/15 where good from the screenshots above, what does i screw up?
    It has color posterization and possibly even compression artifacts/macroblocking on passthrough. I say "possibly" because I recall reading about that, but I can't remember where.

    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Hmm i donīt know, will look up about the AG1970. The TBC can be fixed afterwards, the important thing i S-video that is working correctly. and a good VCR.
    Then TBC is the problem, and to even make it worse.
    It's probably worth looking into then.

    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    PAL got some kind of Phase-Shift thing with the Chroma Lines that totally mess up the picture (it can be worked around but i rather not have it) if the decoder doesnīt know when to change the chroma line, and my capture card doesnīt, and another one i tried didnīt either (well it didnīt even work with VCR in the end). So there probably isnīt any card out there that support it, atleast not with the ability to capture uncompressed;S
    Why couldn't any of these manufacturers just make some hardware that WORKS?
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 22nd Feb 2012 at 03:25.
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  18. Member
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    If copy protection or false detection of it is part of the problem, the TBC in the AG1970 or AG1980 doesn't get rid of it. I have an AG1980 and had a Pinnacle capture card. It falsely detected copy protection on many home recorded NTSC VHS tapes.

    I poked around the web some and found a LeadTek WinFast 2000 XP PCI card that totally ignores all copy protection, without any hardware or software* hacks required. It also records a better image than the Pinnacle.

    The LeadTek can capture NTSC or PAL via the composite and S-Video inputs.

    Only thing I wish it had is an ATSC tuner since the NTSC tuner on it is obsolete.

    *Years ago I had a nVidia Geforce 4 Ti AGP card with ViVo and had to scrounge up an older DLL to use with the latest capture driver to stop it from falsely detecting copy protection on all tapes recorded with my full size VHS camcorder.
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  19. LeadTek WinFast 2000 XP

    Can it capture uncompressed and does the phase-shift;O?
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  20. Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Anyone know if Pioneer DVR-520H-S can pass through?
    I think it has "Digital TBC" whatever that is, but i hope itīs TBC.
    DO NOT buy an old used Pioneer DVR-520 (or 310, 3100, 510, 5100, 220, 320, 420) for any purpose other than off-air broadcast recording. The original "100% Pioneer" recorders of 2002-2005 have zero corrective ability on their line inputs, so are terrible for any sort of passthru configuration (if anything, they add more problems). Whatever TBC these early models have is applied to their tuners only: the line inputs are completely unbuffered and unbelievably sensitive to tape input flaws.

    Later Pioneers made in cooperation with Sony (DVR-640, 540, 550, 560, LX series and the Sony RDR-HX780, 1080, etc) have MUCH improved internal handling of line input from tape sources. But it is more effective internally than as passthru. Also, the later Pioneers (and similar Sonys) are highly sought after as the final group of high-end DVD/HDD recorders, by those who prefer using these machines instead of a PC encoder workflow. It is extremely difficult to find a "cheap" Pioneer 550 etc to test out as a passthru device. The most effective DVD recorders for passthru are the infamous Panasonic ES10, the contorversial Philips 3475 and 3575, and the Toshiba XS or DR-K series. Everything else is a question mark: there is no guarantee passthru is connected to the internal stabilizers, if the deck even has such effective circuitry.

    In North America there is a wide array of second-hand SVHS and newer DVHS models with built-in DNR and line TBC functionality. Exhaustive coverage of individual models can be found here on VH threads as well as on other forums. These VCRs will usually fix a majority of flawed tape signals for most people, at the tradeoff of introducing some undesirable side effects (softening, "plastic" effect, temporal distortions). Some of the VCR functionality can be emulated using passthru devices, external TBCs and processors but not always as easily, predictably or effectively. If you are VERY particular about the end result, expect to need a variety of VCRs and external devices. Unless your entire tape library was made on a single VCR that never drifted and still works perfectly, you'll probably find yourself testing each tape on a different setup until you find whats best.

    Unfortunately the selection of TBC/DNR vcrs in PAL countries is more limited and confusing, and user reports far fewer. In many cases there is no direct PAL sister model to a popular, well-documented NTSC unit, making suggestions from North Americans difficult to apply if you live in a PAL country. The JVC line of VCRs with TBC/DNR was mostly similar around the world, so it isn't as important to correlate PAL models with NTSC equivalents (the JVC TBC/DNR design has not really changed in the past twenty years, specs and operation remains near-identical in any model that has the feature). The JVC DVHS series is newer, with significantly better mechanics, but received limited distribution in Europe. An excellent alternative in North America and Asia was the Mitsubishi HS-HD2000 DVHS, which used JVC-type TBC/DNR, but I have not been able to find a PAL version of it.

    The Panasonic VCR series is the most confusing, with PAL versions completely different from popular NTSC models. The single most widely-discussed Panasonic is the AG1980, a long-lived NTSC model whose closest PAL equivalent is the NV-SF200. However the NV-SF200 used a different chassis and transport, and had other circuit differences, so one can't assume they perform identically (they don't: each is better in some respects). The older AG1970, which has some singular playback advantages for a small percentage of odd tapes, is thought to be available as the NV-SF80 or NV-SF100 in PAL format. But this is far from clear, as Panasonic offered many more AG variations in PAL format than NTSC (in North America, the AG1970 followed by the AG1980 spanned two decades with no other comparable models).

    I keep a JVC 9911, Mitsubishi 2000, Panasonic 1980, Panasonic 1970, and several "ordinary" vcrs in my system, swapping them in and out depending on the tape. These feed directly into Pioneer 550 and 560 DVD/HDD recorders. With this arrangement I rarely need to add external TBCs or other hardware. Of course it is a compromise: I have chosen to accept the MPEG2 PQ limitations of the recorders in exchange for predictability and convenience/efficiency in digitizing a huge collection of Beta/VHS. The work being done by other posters to this thread involves PC hardware, software, and additional external hardware correction. My point being, achieving the full potential of PC-based solutions requires a larger variety of options be at hand: at the very least, several types of VCR. No matter how incredible your capture card or software, it all hinges on the VCR: modern DVD/HDD recorders internally compensate (for better and worse) a lot of issues that need more attention during PC capture. A single VCR, TBC, or passthru may not be sufficient to cover all problems that arise.
    Last edited by orsetto; 22nd Feb 2012 at 14:57.
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  21. Member
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    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    LeadTek WinFast 2000 XP

    Can it capture uncompressed and does the phase-shift;O?
    I've used HUFFYUV lossless compression with it and Adobe Premiere.
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  22. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    oh i thougth ES-10/15 where good from the screenshots above, what does i screw up?
    It has color posterization and possibly even compression artifacts/macroblocking on passthrough. I say "possibly" because I recall reading about that, but I can't remember where.
    I think it was on here, and I think it's wrong.

    Anyway, ES10s and the others are/were easy enough to find over here. Sometimes with broken drives, but that doesn't matter.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  23. Originally Posted by bizzybody View Post
    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    LeadTek WinFast 2000 XP

    Can it capture uncompressed and does the phase-shift;O?
    I've used HUFFYUV lossless compression with it and Adobe Premiere.
    Can you capture PAL with it and upload a sample pleaseE?
    Please capture in Virtualdub, and keep it 720x576 Yuy2


    And can someone please link me to HR9600 TBC off and on, canīt find any screenshots

    Thanks
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  24. Originally Posted by 2Bdecided View Post
    Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    oh i thougth ES-10/15 where good from the screenshots above, what does i screw up?
    It has color posterization and possibly even compression artifacts/macroblocking on passthrough. I say "possibly" because I recall reading about that, but I can't remember where.
    I think it was on here, and I think it's wrong.

    Anyway, ES10s and the others are/were easy enough to find over here. Sometimes with broken drives, but that doesn't matter.

    Cheers,
    David.
    This is one of the posts I was referring to. Supposedly, the Panasonic ES-series encodes to MPEG-2 and decodes it again before passing through analog output. I read somewhere that the degradation is more apparent in darker/shadowy scenes, though that comment may have been referring to the posterization. It would be nice if the extraneous encoding/decoding steps were demonstrated untrue though...do you have one on hand to run tests and post before/after clips or images?
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  25. Member
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    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Originally Posted by bizzybody View Post
    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    LeadTek WinFast 2000 XP

    Can it capture uncompressed and does the phase-shift;O?
    I've used HUFFYUV lossless compression with it and Adobe Premiere.
    Can you capture PAL with it and upload a sample pleaseE?
    Please capture in Virtualdub, and keep it 720x576 Yuy2

    Thanks
    Can't do PAL, I'm in the USA and a long way from any PAL video equipment.
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  26. Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Supposedly, the Panasonic ES-series encodes to MPEG-2 and decodes it again before passing through analog output.
    They do not. There is no evidence of macroblocking or DCT ringing. Any modern device with TBC capability is digital. So you get some analog to digital to analog conversion problems.
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  27. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Supposedly, the Panasonic ES-series encodes to MPEG-2 and decodes it again before passing through analog output.
    They do not. There is no evidence of macroblocking or DCT ringing. Any modern device with TBC capability is digital. So you get some analog to digital to analog conversion problems.
    That's good to know! I suppose the only remaining image quality concern with the ES-10/ES-15 would be posterization. Since it's been an ongoing concern for years, it would be helpful if an owner might someday put up image comparisons for others to judge the severity.
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  28. You can see slight evidence of posterization in some of the images posted in this thread. But with VHS sources the posterization will be lost in all the noise. In other words, the benefits of using a DVD recorder's TBC far outweigh the problems. Can you do better with a professional S-VHS deck and standalone TBC? Of course, if you can find them in good working order. But you'll pay a lot more.
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  29. Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You can see slight evidence of posterization in some of the images posted in this thread. But with VHS sources the posterization will be lost in all the noise. In other words, the benefits of using a DVD recorder's TBC far outweigh the problems. Can you do better with a professional S-VHS deck and standalone TBC? Of course, if you can find them in good working order. But you'll pay a lot more.
    Well, the exact amount of degradation is more interesting to me from the standpoint of comparing it with other DVD recorders with passthrough TBC's. For instance, I have a Philips DVDR3475 and a Toshiba RD-XS34, and I'm curious how they both compare to the Panasonic ES-10/ES-15 in terms of performance and image quality.

    My XS-34 has mostly transparent picture output aside from levels changes: It sharpens a bit (at least using composite in, S-Video out), and it deals with levels very gracefully by reducing my source's contrast and preventing any/all clipping (which is good, since the camcorder I'm using it with otherwise clips into my AIW 9600). Unfortunately, its TBC isn't nearly as strong as the DVDR3475 or the one built into the AG1980 or JVC S-VHS lineup, and it rewrites the sync information, preventing any further correction. If I get some time, I might upload a clip of it to compare with the two I posted here.

    In contrast, the DVDR3475 has a flat-out excellent (seemingly perfect) line TBC...I'd say it's just a hair better than my AG1980's, if that's even possible. It also has very similar picture quality to the Toshiba most of the time, at least after you adjust the levels (it significantly decreases brightness and increases contrast, which has to be compensated for). It sharpens pretty much the same amount, which indicates to me that it might just be part of the Y/C comb filter and composite to S-Video conversion (the XS-34 has a slightly better comb filter btw, whereas the DVDR3475's leaves a bit of residual rainbowing...nothing that light denoising won't fix though). Unfortunately, it has an AGC problem that causes it to flicker and shoot up the contrast (or gamma, or something) when the input white levels are too high...and the levels then clip into my AIW 9600, if they're not already clipped. Thankfully, the problem can be corrected: If you have a proc amp, you can reduce the contrast going into the DVDR3475 and end up with a very strong line TBC that's about as transparent as the XS-34 and works with any VCR.

    The Panasonic ES-10/ES-15's TBC strength seems to be somewhere between the Toshiba XS-34 and Philips DVDR3475, since it's talked about pretty highly, yet it's clearly not as strong as the AG1980/JVC TBC's according to the pictures and clips on this board.

    I haven't seen any posterization from my XS-34 or DVDR3475, but that judgment can easily come from me not looking closely enough. At the very least, the histograms don't seem to indicate a significant problem though. I saw your RGB gradient through the ES-15, and the effect was subtle on all three screens I used. The graphs you put up only had a few small areas where the straightness of the lines was compromised, as well (though a shallower slope might show more banding problems?). Unless it's significantly more obvious with non-primary color gradients or dark off-gray colors, I'm pretty certain I'd never even notice a problem in a real image...which raises the question about how reliable my own observations are about the XS-34 and DVDR3475 being free of posterization. (To me, thinking "I'd probably never notice a problem" may not be worth the risk of coming to notice it later after doing a ton of work with a particular piece of hardware!)

    If I get a lot more time, maybe I'll see about running the same tests you ran for the ES-15. Did you ever find a better test for posterization btw? If the pictures you posted show the ES-15 "at its worst," I'd agree that it's pretty negligible next to VHS noise. However, I would hesitate to assume that's true about posterization in the general case, because posterization occurs after the noise and creates banding in the general sense...so I imagine the noise could mask banding that's introduced to the underlying image (which might become more apparent after denoising).
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 24th Feb 2012 at 11:44.
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  30. Originally Posted by bizzybody View Post
    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    Originally Posted by bizzybody View Post
    Originally Posted by zerowalker View Post
    LeadTek WinFast 2000 XP

    Can it capture uncompressed and does the phase-shift;O?
    I've used HUFFYUV lossless compression with it and Adobe Premiere.
    Can you capture PAL with it and upload a sample pleaseE?
    Please capture in Virtualdub, and keep it 720x576 Yuy2

    Thanks
    Can't do PAL, I'm in the USA and a long way from any PAL video equipment.
    Oh, well i need to be sure the capture card i am going to get has support for PAL Phase-Shift Chroma, else i donīt think i need to replace it.

    And Jagabo, when you said S-VHS TBC is better, did you include the VCR i wrote about up ahead?
    The one with DNR/TBC?
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