Burn VCD on a DVD

[eprunner06]

Hopefully this the right place for this topic. I seem to remember this not being possible, but I wanted to double check. I couldn't find anything when I searched the forums. Anyways, is it possible to make a VCD mpg file and then burn it onto a DVD. What I am trying to get at is fitting more of my video onto a single disk. So, basically, can a VCD file be put onto a DVD and then played in a DVD player. If so, how? Any suggestions/input welcome. Thank You!

My System:
AMD 900Mhz
256MB Ram
140 Gigs HD Space (40GB Drive, 100GB Drive)
ATI All In Wonder Radeon (Upgraded all the way up to the last release of MMC 7.7) - Currently I use the ATI TV in MMC to capture my video.
Nero to burn


-Eric

[Jester700]

I think a better idea might be to use a lower DVD resolution (like half D1) and just lower the bitrate. then there should be no compatibility questions.

[mats.hogberg]

Yes, since VCD compliant video is also DVD compliant, what's needed is to decode the mp2 audio track to wav, then resample it at 48 kHz (VCD standard is 44.1 kHz) and reencode to mp2.
Then author as "any" other DVD.

/Mats

[IvIark]

Yes you can do it quite easily but you need the appropriate software.

I use:

TMPGEnc (MPEG Tools) to demux
Goldwave for resampling audio
Besweet to convert resampled WAV audio back to MP2
DVD Maestro or Spruce Up to author

I demux the MPEG1 to it's component M1V and MP2 streams and then use an audio package like Goldwave to resample the audio to 48KHz and save to a WAV. I then run the WAV through Besweet to create a new 48KHz MP2.

The M1V video stream and the new MP2 audio stream can then be imported into Maestro or Spruce Up and authored as if they were MPEG2 DVD streams. I'm sure that other authoring packages can be used with MPEG1 assets if you don't have either of these.

I've created VCD-DVDs on a few occassions now and have used this method for the Lethal Weapon collection, The Alien boxset and recently the Indiana Jones trilogy.

Hope that helps
Mark

[indolikaa]

And just to show you the versatility of DVD, you can take VCD's specifications and bump up the bitrate to 1800~ and still be DVD-legal. The quality of such an encode is surprising.

[eprunner06]

Ok, thanks for all the quick replies everyone. This seems like it won't be too hard to do after all. Just one more question though. You guys said that you have to resample the audio to 48khz. Do you need to do anything with the video though? I assume that it should still be 352x240. Also, how about the bitrate? Do you guys have any recommendations on how high to put that. The way I am understanding it right now is that the final product (after encoding) should be 352x240 with audio at 48khz - is that correct? Maybe the resolution of the video doesn't matter so much though? With what I am doing I would have the option to bump it up to 480x480 if that would be possible. Then the final product (after encoding) would be 480x480 video with audio at 48khz. All in all here, my questions are what to do with the video (does it even matter what it is ... 352x240, 480x480 etc...). Also, what to do with the bitrate (are there any limitations, or specifications that would have to be met)?

Thanks again!

-Eric

[mats.hogberg]

480*480 is not a valid DVD resolution. Take a look under WHAT IS -> DVDR (top left) for a run down on valid resolutions and bit rates. Since you asked about VCD -> DVD, I was asuming that was what you wanted to do...

/Mats

[pokito]

I use SVCD2DVDMPG
http://www.svcd2dvdmpg.com/

there is also a forum for this:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=37

[indolikaa]

480x480 is NOT a DVD-legal resolution, so keep the video as 352x240.

As for audio, 'DVD-Legal' audio streams for NTSC discs are PCM/WAV 16-bit/48kHz and AC3, with PAL also supporting MP2. I have read many different arguments on the range of bitrates allowed for AC3 and MP2 files, with 128 to 448 being consistently mentioned.

To review legal VCD for DVD settings:

NTSC: 352x240 resolution, 1150 to 1856 bitrate, 48kHz PCM or AC3 audio
PAL: 352x288 resolution, 1150 to 1856 bitrate, 48 kHz PCM/AC3/MP2 audio

[eprunner06]

Ok, thank you, that clears it up for me. I'll get this project of mine started within the next couple days.

-Eric

[indolikaa]

Make sure you report back as to your success or failure!

[eprunner06]

Yep, I'll definitely let you guys know ... it could be a little while though ... I still have to actually buy my DVD burner.

[jimmalenko]

PAL: 352x288 resolution, 1150 to 1856 bitrate, 48 kHz PCM/AC3/MP2 audio

I am very keen to do the same thing with AVIs that I have captured. I am probably repeating what has already been said; I wish to place files of VCD quality on a DVD.

Can someone confirm my theory ?

1. I capture to AVI @ 352 X 288 with Uncompressed Video and 48KHz PCM Audio.
2. I use TMPGEnc to create the final file. It is MPEG-1 352x288 25fps CBR, Layer-2 48000Hz 192kbps.
3. I burn using Nero Express > DVD-Video.

[eprunner06]

I am still waiting on getting my DVD burner, but from what I understand you are correct. I would go with that and if it doesn't work maybe post back or just experiment a little bit with it. I am going to be doing mine in NTSC, but PAL should be the same priniciple.

-Eric

[jimmalenko]

I just had a test run with Nero but I got a bit spooked when I went into Nero Express and selected a DVD-Video. Of course it put an AUDIO_TS and a VIDEO_TS folder and looked like it was only going to accept IFO, BUP and VOB files.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't DVD-VCDs have the same structure folder wise as a normal VCD ?
Does anyone know enough about Nero to tell me which template I should be using or whether i need to amke an image file up ? I tried using the VCD template but it drops out at 800MB.

I have a Full Version of Nero but I'm using Nero Express with the templates because I find it easier to understand.

[sNoWy1998]

As a side issue, depending on what you want to use the DVD's for and what type of DVD player you have, you can just dump VCD compliant mpegs onto a ISO/UDF format DVD and burn them, and they will work, providing you have a browser function on your player (mine is a Yamada). It will play them in order one after the other with only a very slight pause between mpegs, you can even quick select and use PBC to pick a specific file. Works for me!

[jimmalenko]

Thanks Snowy. I'll start from the start.

I have 6 x 70 minute AVIs I have captured from VHS. I converted them to MPEG1 352x288 1150kbit CBR Layer-2 48KHz 192 kbit files using TMPGEnc. I now wish to make a DVD-VCD so I can put all 6 files on the one DVD and play them like a VCD. I just don't know how to burn them properly. Do I need to author them or can I just burn them straight to a ISO/UDF DVD ?

I have an LG DVD player which plays burnt VCDs and DVDs no worries but does not like XVCDs at all.

[eprunner06]

As far as I can tell you should use the DVD template in Nero. That is what I am planning on doing once my burner arrives. The way I see this all is that what you are actually doing is burning a Low Quality DVD. Since DVD supports the VCD resolution along with 48khz you are pretty much just modifying the VCD video file so that it is compliant with DVD - only difference is that it is a Low Quality DVD. If you click DVDR in the top left that might help to explain it better perhaps.

-Eric

[indolikaa]

Jimmalenko,

Your theory looks solid. I don't use Nero for DVD-Video all that often. I author the material in DVD-lab and either burn it there or save the project and burn the _TS folders as a data project in B's Recorder.

There maybe some confusion on my part regarding VCD on DVD, so let me restate my thinking.

I capture the video at 352x240 resolution. But unlike VCD, I can work beyond the 1150 CBR standard and go all the way up to 1856 CBR and sitll be within the 'Legal' standards for MPEG-1 files on a DVD.

I capture the audio at 48 kHz PCM, or 48 kHz AC3 between 128 and 384 kbps. This falls within the 'Legal' standards for audio files on a DVD.

Together, these two files can be muxed by the authoring software and burned to create a DVD-Legal file and stream structure.

Now, having said that, where your path diverges from mine is Nero. I don't use Nero to author DVDs, I use DVD-lab. What I can tell you is that, technically speaking, the structure of a VCD and the structure of a DVD are different, regardless of whether the DVD has MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 video.

As for folder structure, DVD and VCD are quite different. For one thing, DVD stores the video as VOBs and VCD stores the video as AVSEQnn.DAT files.

Nero may be cutting you off at 800MB because that is the 'accepted' Nero limit for burning a CD. You can, of course, exceed this through overburning, but it's likely a protection mechanism to prevent 'newbies' from screwing things up.

You are fine up to the point of leaving TMPGEnc with properly-processed audio and video streams.

The Low Quality Template in Nero sounds like it might be the solution. If Nero will let you author the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS contents to a folder on the hard drive, you might also be able to simply burn those two folders on a DVD. That's the way I do it, and I haven't reported any major problems yet.

Good luck!

[jimmalenko]

Thanks for the responses.

I will try using TMPGEnc DVD Author as all the guides I have read have suggested that the method is Encode > Author > Burn for both VCDs and DVDs.

I got into trouble previously because I used Nero to author and burn my VCDs and didn't realise that these were two different steps. I just need to author into VOBs and then I can burn with Nero or DVD Author.

[indolikaa]

I just need to author into VOBs and then I can burn with Nero or DVD Author.

THAT sounds like it will work.

[jimmalenko]

My method will be:

1. Capture to AVI @ 352x288 with Uncompressed Video and 48KHz PCM Audio.
2. Use TMPGEnc to re-encode. It is MPEG-1 352x288 25fps CBR, Layer-2 48000Hz 192kbps.
3. Use TMPGEnc DVD Author to author and burn.

[indolikaa]

My method will be:

1. Capture to AVI @ 352x288 with Uncompressed Video and 48KHz PCM Audio.
2. Use TMPGEnc to re-encode. It is MPEG-1 352x288 25fps CBR, Layer-2 48000Hz 192kbps.
3. Use TMPGEnc DVD Author to author and burn.

It should work. I'd be interested in what you think of the resulting MP2 file. I've read previously that TMPGEnc is not the best audio encoder in the world...

[eprunner06]

Has anyone ever tried using DVD X Maker to author a DVD-VCD, if so how did it work out? I just got my burner today so I am excited to try it out. I was thinkin about buy DVD X Maker tommorrow. I know that you can use TMPGEnc DVD Author to author a DVD-VCD just because people have mentioned it in this post already. I wasn't sure about using DVD X Maker for that task. For all I know, maybe all author programs can do that ... I don't have this topic quite mastered yet.

Thanks,
-Eric

[eprunner06]

Wellllll ... I finally got my burner, very nice Plextor 708A. BUT, after I tested out my first DVD-VCD I was disappointed when I put it in my DVD player and it had no sound. Also, I think that the video quality of a normal VCD was better than the video quality of this DVD-VCD (that's just looking at the picture, leaving audio out of it). When I play the disc in my computer with Power DVD it plays fine. So, I was wondering if anyone had any tips for me. My DVD player is a Pioneer DV-C503. Also, why is the video quality worse than that of a normal VCD...maybe it has something to do with the audio being at 48khz?? I was thinking about bumping up the resolution to 480x480 but since that is not "DVD-Legal" I would think that I would lose a lot of compatibility with various players. I used TMPGEnc DVD Author to author and burn the VCD. The video was captured with ATI's MMC 7.7. Two of the files were captured as 352x240 48khz audio 1.49 bitrate. The other two on the disk were standard VCD ... there was an option that I checked that said TMPGEnc DVD Author would reencode the audio during the output stage for the two 100% VCD compliant files I added to this project.

Any suggestinos are welcome,
-Eric

[mats.hogberg]

why is the video quality worse than that of a normal VCD...maybe it has something to do with the audio being at 48khz

Shouldn't be, and if it is has nothing to do with the audio fq.
What encoding did you use for audio? Not all stand alone DVD players handle MP2 audio - that might be why you get sound with PowerDVD but not on your standalone...

/Mats

[eprunner06]

OK, thank you for the reply mats .... I was playing with some settings on my DVD player and I was able to fix the audio problem by changing an MPEG audio setting from "MPEG" to "MPEG->PCM". As far as the video, I agree, it is very weird how it is losing quality. It almost gets a little bit of a flicker to it, I am going to play with the bitrates a little bit today to see if I can get it to be a nice, clean, smooth picture. At times the picture is OK, but at other times there is a slow flicker like look to it ... just not as smooth and clear as VCD.

I am capturing now with many different bitrates and I am going to make a DVD with all of these captures in a couple hours and compare them all. What about Constant Bitrate vs. Variable Bitrate ... do you think Variable might be better (I am using constant bitrate). Also, MPEG1 or MPEG2, I have been using MPEG1 since these are dvd-VCD's.

Let me know what you guys think .... and, of course if I'm headed off in this bitrate directions when maybe it's the complete wrong thing to try, let me know

Thank You!
-Eric

[eprunner06]

Just thought of one more possibility ... I know nothing about this though. When I capture using ATI's MMC there it asks about "frame sequence" I always use the default which is 4 'P' Frames in a Group and 2 'B' frames in a group. The resulting example of the sequence that they show on top is: I BB P BB P BB P BB P BB I...

Should this be set to something different since I am burning to a DVD. Maybe this is an OK setting for a VCD but not a DVD-VCD? Just another thought that came to mind ...

Thanks!
-Eric

[eprunner06]

Alright so after playing around with this pretty extensively I have come to the conclusion that the poor quality is none other than my DVD players fault. It's not the newest model, but also not extremely old. Pioneer DVC-503. It's a very nice player, apparently though it does not play DVDR's very well. I have come to this conclusion because I hooked up a TV to my computer and then played the DVD on that TV through the computer. Then, I took that same TV and hooked it up to the DVD player. There was a noticeable quality difference between the two. Kinda weird .. O well though. I guess it's time to start looking for a new DVD player.

So, as long as my new DVD player plays these DVD's nicely I have successfully created DVD-VCD's using the following process:

1. Capture Black and White video from my TV-Tuner Card (TVLAND)
a) The format of this capture is: 352x240 41khz audio 1.13 constant bitrate MPEG1 (basically it is a completely VCD compatible capture).

2. Author using TMPGEnc DVD Author. (This program re-encodes the audio to 48khz for you in its output process)

3. Burn using the burn utility in TMPGEnc DVD Author.

4. Play! (and hopefully your DVD player will be accepting of your disk and put out some quality video)

-Eric