TBC-1000 vs DMR-ES15 for video/audio lock

[clashradio]

Hello,

I have a modified Datavideo TBC-1000 with the audio distribution amp removed. I also have a Panasonic DMR-ES15 for its passthrough TBC-like ability. My analog capture device is a Black Magic Mini Converter analog-to-SDI box.

I want to capture vhs via Domesday Duplicator (DdD) and conventional, to later sync the DdD video with the conventional audio. Capturing linear audio is not possible with the DdD. That's why conventional capture is still needed. (I'm guessing it's easier to sync if both video & audio is captured vs only the audio, even though only the audio is used).

I assume the TBC-1000 has a better TBC than any dvd or BD recorder.

Because I need a TBC unit that helps with dropouts, so hopefully the two separately captured files will sync perfectly, which chain do think is better?

A) [VIDEO signal] vcr>TBC-1000>Black Magic [AUDIO signal] vcr>Black Magic

B) [VIDEO signal] vcr>DMR-ES15>Black Magic [AUDIO signal] vcr>DMR-ES15>Black Magic

I thought I read somewhere the DMR-ES15 has hardware sync that locks the video & audio signals together?

Thanks for any suggestions, opinions.

[dellsam34]

TBC-1000 don't have any audio dist. amp to remove to begin with, it's video only device. Anyway, you can wait for the new hardware to come out which includes two stereo line level audio channels inputs (Linear + HiFi) and two RF inputs (Video + HiFi).

[Alwyn]

it's video only device.

No it's not, according to all the pics I can find of it. RCA audio In and Out.

[lordsmurf]

it's video only device.

No it's not, according to all the pics I can find of it. RCA audio In and Out.

That's only the VP-299 distro amp board. It's post-TBC.

[Alwyn]

That's only the VP-299 distro amp board. It's post-TBC.

Huh? The statement was the TBC-1000 was video-only. That's all I was addressing. I don't have one, but every picture I can find of one, including the manuals, show audio In and Out. The internals have nothing to do with it.

[dellsam34]

Yes and no, Audio is a passthrough feature, it is not processed inside the TBC board. But I stand corrected in saying "don't have audio dis. amp", Apologies.

[lordsmurf]

I thought I read somewhere the DMR-ES15 has hardware sync that locks the video & audio signals together?

Yes and no.

ES15 has a non-TBC frame sync. But it syncs in audio. It's not "locked" whatsoever, but it is sync'd internal on output.

The most important factor to remember is that ES15 adds a delay, so you must use audio output from the ES15. If you bypass only video, it will be out of sync.

I assume the TBC-1000 has a better TBC than any dvd or BD recorder.

Better frame TBC, correct.

That's only the VP-299 distro amp board. It's post-TBC.

Huh? The statement was the TBC-1000 was video-only. That's all I was addressing. I don't have one, but every picture I can find of one, including the manuals, show audio In and Out. The internals have nothing to do with it.

Internals matter.

- The TBC-1000 is video only via the VF-301x card.
- The TBC-1000 audio is a bypass direct into the VP-299 output distro amp card. So the audio is not "TBC'd" at any time.

[clashradio]

Internals matter.

- The TBC-1000 is video only via the VF-301x card.
- The TBC-1000 audio is a bypass direct into the VP-299 output distro amp card. So the audio is not "TBC'd" at any time.[/QUOTE]

Because the TBC-1000 doesn't process audio in any way, do you think it's better to use the Panasonic for input/output video/audio?

or use the TBC-1000 for video and feed the audio direct to the cap card?

I'm thinking in terms of less dropouts, so I can better sync the two captured files (DdD and conventional).

[lordsmurf]

I'm low on time, but I wanted to give a quick answer.

The ES10 is not a good option. The non-TBC frame sync will have some % of dupe frames, maybe drop if source is bad or falsely flagged. Non-TBC frame syncs don't correct errors, merely treat them as speed bumps.

The entire "separate audio and video" situation is major weakness of the RF methods, and I'm not convinced their MISRC will fix it. (I don't have time to expand on that thought..

Your goal is a visual assist in NLE for audio/video alignment, and I do this myself when merging sources (audio from one, video from another).

The capture card and capture software can affect this more than anything else, namely settings that attempt to sync.

I'd have to consider TBC-1000 + separate audio, with VirtualDub and proper timing settings.

I'd actually consider a distribution amp (audio only, non-DataVideo), then dual record to a computer using video capture software, and another that uses audio recording software (like Sound Forge). Then visually compare the waves. I'd seen instances where the was mismatch, and the "raw" audio recording would drift. The amp may add delay, so adjust accordingly in the NLE timeline.

How do you make video capture overly complicated? Use RF methods.

[clashradio]

[/QUOTE] ES15 has a non-TBC frame sync. But it syncs in audio. It's not "locked" whatsoever, but it is sync'd internal on output.[/QUOTE]

This is why I'm wondering if it's better to use the ES15, even though I'm guessing the TBC-1000 has a better TBC.

Which chain do you think is the better option?

A) Video: vcr> TBC-1000> Black Magic analog SDI
Audio: vcr> Black Magic

B) Video: vcr> ES15> Black Magic
Audio: vcr> ES15> Black Magic

[lordsmurf]

You're still stuck on the false idea that the ES10 will somehow "lock" (or "sync" or whatever) the audio. It does not. The ES10 syncs audio to itself, but with uncorrected frames. So it's a terrible timecode master.

If the goal is visual sync of video (which it is), in order to sync the audio, then the TBC-1000 is obvious. The delay is 1 field, not that it matters here, for this use.

You're really seeking genlock (sort of), which still won't work here.

BM is a terrible card for VHS capture, so TBC-1000 is especially recommended.

[clashradio]

The reason I went with Black Magic is all because of Domesday Duplicator capture. it's recommended capturing DdD with Linux, not Windows. Prior to using Linux, my analog setup was an Osprey 827/e, but it isn't Linux compatible. BM is cross platform.

I'm somewhat new at proper vhs capture. I've done it wrong for years admittedly. But I do have a AG1980 and TBC-1000, and now ES15.

What I'm also stuck on is if the whole point of TBC is to prevent dropouts. To me no dropouts means it will be easier to sync the two captured files (DdD and conventional).

[Brad]

A "dropout" in video jargon is something else. I don't know the best term for what you're describing. I assume you mean discontinuities; especially where a recording ends and there's a gap of blank tape before the next one.

my analog setup was an Osprey 827/e, but it isn't Linux compatible.

They claim it's compatible with the standard V4L2 in Linux. False advertising?

I want to capture vhs via Domesday Duplicator (DdD) and conventional, to later sync the DdD video with the conventional audio. Capturing linear audio is not possible with the DdD. That's why conventional capture is still needed.

It is possible, by combining the DdD with a "clockgen lite". Only one user has tested this so far. The only real obstacle is that DdD still has no CLI capture software, so he can't easily script them to start at the same instant. He is using an auto-clicker to move the mouse and press the GUI "Capture" button simultaneously with CLI audio capture start.

Here is the Clockgen Lite documentation. It's normally used with CX card(s).
https://github.com/namazso/cxadc-clockgen-mod

Even if you got this set up, it's still not a bad idea to do a conventional reference capture at the same time.

[lordsmurf]

A "dropout" in video jargon is something else. I don't know the best term for what you're describing. I assume you mean discontinuities; especially where a recording ends and there's a gap of blank tape before the next one.

There's two kind of jargon for dropout.

That link refers to the "magnetic dropout", caused by tape damage, often presenting as comets or tracking noise.

But the other dropout is "missing signal" (and thus leads to dropped frames). The signal literally drops out of existence for a portion of time, screwing up temporal timing. Some are analog induced (U-matic issues I've dealt with before), others digital induced (such as what the craptastic Blackmagic cards often do). It has nothing to do with recording gaps, tape snow, etc. Total loss of signal for whatever reason.

[clashradio]

They claim it's compatible with the standard V4L2 in Linux. False advertising?

I've been in contact with Terry Stephenson from Osprey Engineering and Support. He provided me with a few Linux drivers, none worked. He did say "to be truthful, myself and this company is not too swift when it comes to Linux. To my understanding, yes you should be able to use Osprey Preview and Ceylon with the Linux drivers".

Even if you got this set up, it's still not a bad idea to do a conventional reference capture at the same time.

With vhs, I do cap conventional simultaneously with DdD. I don't cap conventional with laserdisc, however.

Like Lordsmurf said, I thinking it's better to use the TBC-1000, with the audio from the vhs player going direct to the BM card, vs a dvd-recorder even though both video & audio are connected.

[aramkolt]

Interesting topic. I don't think having "audio locked" to a traditional video capture really will affect anything when it comes to syncing linear audio up to your VHS_Decode capture.

Audio will continue to be captured even if there is no signal present at all (dropouts) as lack of audio is preserved as silence or other noise in the timeline. The issue with video syncing is when video frames drop and aren't appropriately compensated for, the video advances faster than the audio does when played back at the correct frame rate and the audio will sound like it gets a little further behind with each dropped frame.

In reality, the audio is correct and the video is advancing too quickly in the absence of all the frames it is supposed to contain.