How do I convert HD NTSC footage into HD PAL - what frame rate is best ?

[Bansaw]

I have some footage* that I want to convert to PAL HD. Currently its in NTSC HD.
What is the best frame rate / frame size to convert into? Do I have to convert it up to 50fps (or 25fps) and turn it into interlaced?

General
Complete name                            : my.mov
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : QuickTime
Codec ID                                 : qt 
File size                                : 168 GiB
Duration                                 : 2h 18mn
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 173 Mbps
Encoded date                             : UTC 2014-09-08 17:29:17
Tagged date                              : UTC 2014-09-08 20:14:37
Writing library                          : aapl
©TIM                                     : 00:00:00:00
©TSC                                     : 2997
©TSZ                                     : 125
 
 
Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : High
Codec ID                                 : apch
Duration                                 : 2h 18mn
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 173 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 fps
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.484
Stream size                              : 168 GiB (100%)
Writing library                          : Apple

[LMotlow]

Your source is already 23.976 progressive, film speed. Interlaced 23.976 1920x1080 is invalid for BluRay/AVCHD, and so is 50fps progressive at that frame size. What most people do with such NTSC source is leave it as-is or speed it up to 24fps.

The HD format specs are here: https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech
More detail about frame structure, GOPs, and encoding h264/MPEG are here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

Are you working with a Mac?

[Bansaw]

Thanks, so, if I'm wanting a PAL HD master, I take my current footage and convert it into frame rate 25fps whilst retaining the same frame size?

[LMotlow]

Nope. Look at the links. 23.976fps progressive or 24fps progressive at 1920x1080 is the BluRay/AVCHD standard. 25fps progressive is never valid at 1920x1080. Your source frame size, frame rate, and progressive frames are already OK. But pay attention to GOP sizes at the second link, above. Your bitrate is out of spec.

[newpball]

Thanks, so, if I'm wanting a PAL HD master, I take my current footage and convert it into frame rate 25fps whilst retaining the same frame size?

What LMotlow wrote, plus you almost never would want to convert a framerate from 24 to 25, instead you speed up the footage.

[manono]

There is no PAL HD as such. For Blu-Ray there are Regions but a region-free Hi-Def Blu-Ray can be played on any Blu-Ray player in any country. I can show you examples of retail 23.976/24fps Blu-Rays out of Great Britain, if you wish.

There are interlaced 25fps and progressive 50fps Blu-Rays, but there's no need to change the framerate of a 23.976fps source to make a Blu-Ray compliant video.

[wulf109]

Question,there are 25FPS Blue Ray issued in Europe that will not play on most U.S. players even if there region free?


Apple Quicktime??

[poisondeathray]

Yes, it's not guarenteed to play, even in a region free USA player (some will play, some wont). 1920x1080p24.0 or 23.976p however is compatible with all players, even "PAL" area units

"25FPS blu ray" at 1920x1080p25 doesn't really exist with native progressive encoding; it's actually encoded or flagged interlaced (progressive content, but encoded interlaced)

[manono]

Yes, it's not guarenteed to play, even in a region free USA player (some will play, some wont). 1920x1080p24.0 or 23.976p

Trying to learn here. You've read accounts either of region free 25fps Blu-Rays or region-locked 25fps Blu-Rays playing in an all-region Blu-Ray player, that won't play in the US or Canada? One would think the player would have some way of converting it to 59.94fps, whether poorly or well. For example, this one (and others from the same place) claims to be able to play any Blu-Ray from anywhere:

http://www.220-electronics.com/region-free-blu-ray-players/sony-bdp-s6200-region-free-...vd-player.html

[poisondeathray]

Yes, it was a while ago on the avsforum. There were some reports about some playback issues. I'll try to find the link

[manono]

That's okay, I'll take your word for it. So, for the former NTSC regions a Blu-Ray player isn't required to play 25fps Blu-Rays but many (most?) players will play them if they aren't region-locked or if you you have a region-free player. For the former PAL regions, the players aren't required to play 23.976/24fps Blu-Rays but all will play them if they aren't region-locked or if you have a region-free player. Is that about it?

[wulf109]

I've bought a few 25FPF blue rays. My LG player will play them if they are region free. Those that are region B locked I run thru my computer to make them region free. My Sony player will not play them at all. The LG converts PAL to NTSC,the Sony does not. The PAL to NTSC conversion seems to be the reason.

[poisondeathray]

@manono - Yeah, just do a quick search , there are dozens of posts, not just 1 or 2 obscure models. It's more model specific than a broad based generalization, because some do play them fine. I remember because I was researching some units for my basement. So if you're looking for at a specific model , make sure you do the research first. Sony seems particularly bad for the region issue, even ones that are advertised "region free" (and the one you linked to is a Sony )

All bd players are required to play 1080p23.976 / 24.0 regardless of where they are from. That's part of the spec regardless of anything else

[manono]

All bd players are required to play 1080p23.976 / 24.0 regardless of where they are from. That's part of the spec regardless of anything else

But 25/50fps isn't part of the spec? Although this is off topic, I found a list of which US players can play 50Hz Blu-Ray discs and convert them to 60Hz for playback on any US HDTV. Some might find it useful:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95245

[poisondeathray]

All bd players are required to play 1080p23.976 / 24.0 regardless of where they are from. That's part of the spec regardless of anything else

But 25/50fps isn't part of the spec? Although this is off topic, I found a list of which US players can play 50Hz Blu-Ray discs and convert them to 60Hz for playback on any US HDTV. Some might find it useful:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95245

That's correct, 1920x1080p25 is NOT part of the spec (interlaced is). However, 720p50 is part of the spec

Thanks for the list. Sony noticably absent. Too bad it doesn't look updated

[LMotlow]

@manono, the "spec" we're talking about is an exhaustive look-see posted at doom9. Some players will make the rate conversion you mention, some won't. Here's the strict spec interpretation, with a lot of encoding stuff and other parameters: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

[Cornucopia]

Yes, and that repeats what the Blu-ray forum put out in their BD AV Application Format spec, just laid out a little nicer/more comprehensively.

Scott

[manono]

That's correct, 1920x1080p25 is NOT part of the spec (interlaced is). However, 720p50 is part of the spec

I knew that 25fps meant interlace encoded 25fps (even if with progressive content). I see it in enough PAL DVDs.

Both you and the chart to which LMotlow linked show them to be compliant and within the spec. That tells me that when Sony and Panasonic sell Blu-Ray players that refuse to play such material (even if they only output 50Hz) they are not abiding by the specs, are non-compliant themselves, and should be called out on it in reviews and in all these video sites. I realize it's all academic, but the next Blu-Ray player I buy sure won't be a Sony (unless I buy one modded to play Blu-Rays from all regions). Right now I'm using a Playstation 3 which won't play any Blu-Rays from outside the US region or any region-free 50Hz Blu-Rays.

[Skiller]

Playback of 50 Hz content is locked out by quite a few players sold in the US because there seems to be an interest in keeping the North American market self-enclosed like it used to be since the dawn of TV standards. It's the same with TV sets sold there. Pretty much any TV sold in Europe within the last 15-20 years is able to display 60 Hz input signals (some only via PAL60 but still), but even today in 2014 there are TVs sold in North America which do not accept 50 Hz input signals – it's locked out by firmware.