DVD Lab Pro or Ulead DVD Workshop 2?

[lordsmurf]

I've heard a few comments here about DVDWS2 crashses. In the two years I've been using DVDWS2, I've never had a crash as a result of the software itself. It has crashed maybe 3-4 times in two years, but those are because of something I did. It need also be said that I own the software, full final updated version, bought and paid for, not one of those cracked trials (which are known to have bugs and crash). Just a thought.

Ulead has not lead us to believe that anything will be abandoned, and in fact, according to my sources, DVDWS3 is in development, or at least on the drawing board. Ulead has updated it's other products too in past years. They are very major a competitor to Adobe, in terms of products lines, and they aren't going anywhere. They're actually doing quite well from what I've read, they won't be folding or selling out or merging anytime soon. DVDWS2 in fact, received several updates, including some for DL media. Although layer break is not set correctly (nor is anybody else), at least they tried, right? We know they're breathing. Maybe next time, they can do something like PgcEdit/ImgBurn.

If you want to talk about a weak company, Mediachance (owner of DVD-Lab) is more likely to sell off or dissolve, as it's basically a one-man operation with a couple extra employees. If you read through his various documentations, some of it looks like it was lifted directly from online video sites with some editing and re-write to change it just enough to avoid verbatim plagiarism. This leads me to believe that the author does not know as much about video as he wants everybody to think, and it would very much explain some of the bugs and nuisances associated with DVD-Lab.

[sacajaweeda]

I find it a little bizarre the way you slam DVD Lab at every turn, LS. It's a great program, what is with all the disdain from you regarding it?

[lordsmurf]

I find it a little bizarre the way you slam DVD Lab at every turn, LS. It's a great program, what is with all the disdain from you regarding it?

It's not just DVD-Lab.

There are several authoring programs out there which are just abominations for several reasons. The workflow/interface sucks, and the bugs make you want to smash the computer.

I'm not a fan of Encore either. I cannot believe that coding abortion was actually released by Adobe as a final version software in the state it exists in now. That thing ignores more than 50% of the DVD specs. How useless.

I'm also appalled at how Sonic Solutions totally botched DVDit! from the decent program it used to be, and totally pissed away the potential it had.

Let's not even talk about all the all-in-one junk we have to choose from.

TDA is overrated too, I'd suggest SVCD2DVD over it.

SVCD2DVD works quite well right now as is, but it also has a lot of potential, should the author ever want to take on the larger DVD authoring market.

I have nothing bad to say about Architect, it's a fine program. Just not what I choose to use, as it has certain limitations that I cannot do. Interface is not my favorite, but it does not look too difficult.

DVD Studio Pro is excellent.

Ulead DVDWS2 is excellent.

While there are surely some folks out there who will like pretty much any program, what I can say is that some of them tend to just piss people off more than anything else. Lots try, but few actually go all the way and buy it. Not to pick on DVD-Lab again, but it really fits that description.

[ron spencer]

those who bash DVDLab have no idea what VM commands are and do not want to learn.

Ulead is for quick and dirty use...yes primative

DVDLab requires the user to step out of the box to actually think about what you want...in this case garbage in-garbage out...it will not re-encode bad video assets for you or hold your hand. But if you want ultimate control over your project, it blows away anything else out there...And I have tried them all.

If you have no idea what GPRM, SPRM, the various DVD domains, or cell commands are, then go for ulead. But if you actually want to delve into how a DVD is made then DVDLab has no match.

BTW people who also slam TDA have no idea what it is doing....while primative in its interface, it is actually a smart IFO import machine. It will actually let you import a DVD with multiple angles, tear them apart, and ensure that there are no sync issues. No other program does this. I have used it when DVDShrink, Recode, etc. botches stuff.

[guns1inger]

I actually like DLP because I have everyhing on hand. The interface is open and gives you everything you need, whenever you need it. DVDWS's staged approach to authoring means too much backing and froing. It may suit some (it seems to suit you, LS), but I find it restricting and cumbersome. Each to their own.

DLP has had some bugs at the beginning of each x.0 release, but then id DVDWS was so clean, why does it have patches (although few and far between they maybe). These are a fact of software life, and as long as the software is being actively maintained and the bugs attended to, I have no problem with this.

I can't agree that 16:9 is an unneeded feature. With this incessent industry push for consumers to buy widescreen TVs and widescreen cameras, I am seeing more and more 16:9 material, and worse, more and more merging of 4:3 and widescreen. I need an authoring tool that supports 16:9 properly, which DLP does.

Ultimately, you find a package that suits the way you work. For LS it is DVDWS, for others it is something else. However, being dogmatic about it doesn't actually make it right. Choose what works for you, for the way you think and work, and you will get the best results.

[sacajaweeda]

However, being dogmatic about it doesn't actually make it right. Choose what works for you, for the way you think and work, and you will get the best results.

That's pretty much the way I see it. I've tried just about everything that's out there in the PC realm, and settled on a few different programs, and DVD Lab is my primary authoring tool. Creating compliant AV streams isn't an issue for me, so I don't need an application that corrects or re-encodes files. I don't personally see overly intuitive interfaces as a plus, either. They should be user-friendly, which DVD Lab is, IMHO, but anyone shelling out the kind of money some of these programs fetch shouldn't still need training wheels.

[ron spencer]

exactly!!! Most people haven't a clue how to encode video properly, so they need an application like ulead or whatever to reencode their junk. DVDLab does not do this so when their stuff does not work they say DVDLab is junk. But once people are boned-up on how to make proper video and audio assets DVDlab, which is an authoring program only, is really superlative.

It can even compile without an abstraction layer, which is awesome for total control, but you need to be educated about DVD. DVDLab is not point-click-you're done; and most people do not take the time to differentiate this important difference. If you are "INTO" DVD then use DVDLab; if you want a one-click wonder use something else.

[Noahtuck]

Wow!! 3 people in a row!!!
It's about time!!! I've been watching this thread since the very very first post but i was not going to reply.

ron spencer summed it up very well
As did guns1inger.

I've used both and have been a 100% DLP follower.
It's hard and intimidating if you are totally clueless.

I actually like DLP because I have everyhing on hand. The interface is open and gives you everything you need, whenever you need it. DVDWS's staged approach to authoring means too much backing and froing. It may suit some (it seems to suit you, LS), but I find it restricting and cumbersome. Each to their own.

Exactly!!
I saw someone post how cumbersome & clunky DLP is
I'm not going to look back to see but... I love the way everything is right there and you can do whatever you want without having to fart around constantly.

It supports most sources that most people will be using. Legal sources, at least. There's not much 16:9 or 23.976 (3:2) sources out there, for the demographic they're after (home and small business). If you have such sources, usually you're either an online P2P pirate, or you're in the next level of production and would be using something like Scenarist anyway.

WTF are you talking about
I have done and still do TONS of widescreen projects and it has absolutely nothing to do with online p2p or piracy!! Craziness man craziness!!
not to mention the price diff. between DLP and Scenarist
And i'd still spend $400.00 for DLP before i would DVDWS2.

And there are many things you can do in DLP that you can't do in DVDWS...

There is just no choice, not even a compatition.... DVD-lab PRO all the way!!!

[lordsmurf]

exactly!!! Most people haven't a clue how to encode video properly, so they need an application like ulead or whatever to reencode their junk. DVDLab does not do this so when their stuff does not work they say DVDLab is junk. But once people are boned-up on how to make proper video and audio assets DVDlab, which is an authoring program only, is really superlative.

I don't know where you get this idea. I'm against all-in-one software, as well as letting authoring software doing anything but author. Authoring software should not be used to burn, nor encode video, nor anything else not related directly to the authoring process (import assets, arrange, add functionalty for DVD-Video commands, that's it). DVDWS2 is not all-in-one software. I guess it can be, it has some extra features stuffed in it (so does DVD-Lab, optionally, for that matter), but so can many others. It has the ability to be used purely for authoring. Do not use it to capture, edit or encode anything.

I agree with you. To blame authoring software for having bad assets is entirely the fault of the user, without a doubt. Of course, that's not what the conversation was about when you made your reply.

DLP has had some bugs at the beginning of each x.0 release

You know, I've heard this many times, but that's just not true. Maybe some of the most obvious bugs are fixed, but many small ones still persist throughout the various versions. The generic errors messages and outright program freezes and crashes are the most obnoxious, so you can never quite figure out EXACTLY what the bug is.

On a side note....
I've not given up trying to work with DVD-Lab. But the software issues, the clunky workflow, and the lack of advantages over either DVDWS2 or DVDSP (excluding price) is not a real incentive to even care. To date I've only seen 1-2 guides for it, neither helped, and even with my knowledge of DVDSP (which is far more advanced than DVD-Lab), I cannot get it to work stable and do the things I want. That's all it is. And I'm not alone in this opinion, I've seen it and heard it echoed in many other places online and offline.

[jsmithepa]

I just started on this journey and have about 4 weeks with DLP2. It' kinda intimadating with all those button on-your-face, but I got used to it. I had to go through the menu tutorial and use its help file extensively. Does 90% of what I want. I currently have 2 minor prob with it.

My cons (minor) -
1. The Smart Compile is a cool feature (reduces compile time) but doesn't seemt to work right. So to avoid "it's my fault or DLP's fault?" I just compile from scratch.

2. Subtitle, if I don't play it from its starting point (like jump to middle of chapter) then it doesn't show at all.

Pros -
I love that DLP2 displays that warning window when importing an assest. Tells u what it REALLY wants. 'Cuz of that, my resources are clean from the getcko. Nothing to translate, ready to be DVD'ed.

Love the connection window, tells me how it "flows" which any programmer will feel right at home.

Lots of power, but some stuff, multiple menus, cells can wear u down (no good for quick&dirty built but with some pizzaz noneless).

THEN I looked at DW2, really spent like 2 hours with it. HATE that it forces me to use a 1024x768 display (long story). The interface feels primitive, again, maybe I haven't spent enough time with it. But what really told me to give it up for now is, how skimpy the help file is. OK, ez to use is good, but when I want power, and want to open the hood, I want documentation on how to go about that. Well, when I have more time, I may look at this thing again.


Able to burn DL? isn't that a function of the burner? Don't everybody have Nero bundled with their burner hardware?

[guns1inger]

I have never had DLP lock or crash on me, and I have used it since before the Pro version was released. I have read many posts here about strange output - missing or incomplete strucutres etc - and without fail these have ultimately proved to have come from dubious source (attempts to use VOBs without demuxing, or source created by the likes on WinAVI). I have seen acknowledged (and fixed) bugs at the Mediachance forum, although in all this time, I have only ever had one case of odd behaviour, and it affected one particular brand of player in one circumstance.

I do think some of the so-called design features - transitions/graphics effects are cheesy and un-necessary, but I don't use them anyway.

Clean source has always produced clean output for me.

[lordsmurf]

THEN I looked at DW2, really spent like 2 hours with it. HATE that it forces me to use a 1024x768 display (long story). The interface feels primitive, again, maybe I haven't spent enough time with it. But what really told me to give it up for now is, how skimpy the help file is. OK, ez to use is good, but when I want power, and want to open the hood, I want documentation on how to go about that. Well, when I have more time, I may look at this thing again.

1024x768 is a minimum. It's actually not all that uncommon for software in the past few years. I hated that at first too, but I moved to 1024x678 and liked it. My current LCD is 1280x1024, very nice, DVDWS2 works good in it........ Most of the documentation is not in the book, but on the Ulead site itself. I won't disagree about the book not giving enough info, but I say that about most software.............. I would not say the interface is "primitive" as much as I would say that it's laid out in an easy-to-use manner. But when you start to use it, you'll see all the sub-menus and sub-sub-menus and start to see some of the options. Some are not so obvious, but lots of options exist if you know what to look for. Stick with it, and if you don't know how to do something, post a question. Lots of DVDWS2 users on this forum. Ulead also has some forums, and while not great, there may be tips and info there too.

Able to burn DL? isn't that a function of the burner? Don't everybody have Nero bundled with their burner hardware?

Do not use Nero to burn DL. It does it wrong. I suggest the PcgEdit/ImgBurn combination, it's accurate and easy.

[GeorgeW]

Ulead has not lead us to believe that anything will be abandoned, and in fact, according to my sources, DVDWS3 is in development, or at least on the drawing board.

The last official status I heard on 6/10/2006 was that DVD WorkShop is "ON HOLD" -- did you hear something recently
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Ulead has updated it's other products too in past years. They are very major a competitor to Adobe, in terms of products lines, and they aren't going anywhere. They're actually doing quite well from what I've read, they won't be folding or selling out or merging anytime soon.

In the last year, we have seen Ulead purchased by Intervideo, and now Intervideo being acquired by Corel
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DVDWS2 in fact, received several updates, including some for DL media. Although layer break is not set correctly (nor is anybody else), at least they tried, right? We know they're breathing. Maybe next time, they can do something like PgcEdit/ImgBurn.

At least they tried -- can you imaging if someone said At least they tried about DVD LabPro, or DVDit Pro 6, or Encore DVD, or DVD Architect, etc... -- would you accept that as a valid statement
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I will agree it does not do things like 16:9 menus or NTSC film...

16:9 menus are probably the most requested update for DWS in the Ulead DVDWS Forum. Also, there's alot more 16:9 source material than you think -- in fact, HDV is widescreen, and regular dv camcorders are including true 16:9 modes (like the Canon ZRxxx and elura models).
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It's really best to create separate clips anyway. Just use an MPEG editor and clip out what you want. It will speed up the authoring process for starters. And then professional workflow would have required you to edit the full menu clip in an NLE timeline anyway. What you request here is sort of a newbie-ware type feature. Probably not what you want to hear, but it's the truth of the situation.

It would be much easier to just set the start point for a motion thumbnail. I would not consider that a "newbie-ware" feature. Considering you said the demographic they're after (home and small business), wouldn't this be a time-saving feature for those types of users???
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I have nothing bad to say about Architect, it's a fine program. Just not what I choose to use, as it has certain limitations that I cannot do. Interface is not my favorite, but it does not look too difficult.

I'd say DVD Architect 3.x can do everything DVD WS 2.x can do (so I don't know what you consider to be limitations), plus DVDA3 can do more (assuming it came with Vegas 6 -- because it is not sold separately). It is not without some bugs, and its interface isn't as "user friendly" as DVD WS, but it's not too difficult (imho).
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About bugs...

You know, I've heard this many times, but that's just not true. Maybe some of the most obvious bugs are fixed, but many small ones still persist throughout the various versions. The generic errors messages and outright program freezes and crashes are the most obnoxious, so you can never quite figure out EXACTLY what the bug is.

I think DVD WS 2.x also has its share of "generic error messages" (as do other programs). And yes, I have seen posts in other forums about DVD WS program crashes and freezes. Here are some of the generic error messages in DVDWS:
-unspecified error, error code:8004138c'
-"Unspecified error. Error Code 8004145d".
-'unspecified error' 80004005
-error 8004138d
-error 800413a4
-Error code: 80041464
-error 80041459
-there are more
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On a side note....
I've not given up trying to work with DVD-Lab. But the software issues, the clunky workflow, and the lack of advantages over either DVDWS2 or DVDSP (excluding price) is not a real incentive to even care. To date I've only seen 1-2 guides for it, neither helped, and even with my knowledge of DVDSP (which is far more advanced than DVD-Lab), I cannot get it to work stable and do the things I want. That's all it is. And I'm not alone in this opinion, I've seen it and heard it echoed in many other places online and offline.

DVD Lab PRO has a clunky workflow? That probably goes to personal taste. DVDLab PRO has so many more features than DVDWS, that it might appear to be too complicated. I personally think DLP has an excellent interface/workflow that allows me to build my DVD with total control over navigation and playback. And if I simply need a DVD without advanced VM scripting, DLP lets me build a DVD just as easily...

Here are some DLP2.x Advantages over DVDWS2 (I don't use DVDSP, so cannot comment about that software, but I understand that version 4 is extremely powerful, but this is more a discussion of DVD WS vs DLP).
-sprm checking
-gprm check/modify
-scripting / vm commands (you have the power to control/customize navigation and playback)
-control of button navigation on menus (left/right/up/down arrows)
-multiple angles
-buttons over video
-up to 30 menu cells
-16:9 menus
-manually control VTS assets (you control where your titles should go in your dvd structure)
-chapter playlists (play a chapter and return to the menu, or play several chapters in a different sequence and return to the menu -- all without needing to add additional assets that will eat up your disc space)
-import chapter list text file (timecodes and/or frame numbers)
-smart re-compile
-lean abstraction layer (for freedom to code with up to 10 GPRM's)
-compile without abstraction layer (for total control)
-support for closed caption line-21 for NTSC DVD's (takes Scenarist format)
-generate project reports -- assets, links, etc...
-better control of color states for menu buttons
-attach pre-made external VTS (so you can build your DVD in stages, and Import them into a master project)
-pause on chapter-end for "x" time, or until user presses play
-pause on Title end
-setting of UOPS
-and there are more...
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I think it is great that you are such a fan of DVD WS 2.x. To me, its greatest strength is its user-friendly interface. But I think it needs some updates in order to keep pace with the competition...

Regards,
George

[lordsmurf]

Ulead has not lead us to believe that anything will be abandoned, and in fact, according to my sources, DVDWS3 is in development, or at least on the drawing board.

The last official status I heard on 6/10/2006 was that DVD WorkShop is "ON HOLD" -- did you hear something recently

Yes, last week actually. It was not official.

I don't know anything beyond an acknowledgment of "DVDWS3", and a confirmation that an authoring feature in the discussion will "not be available in that version" (paraphrasing, since my info is 2nd-hand). That's all it was. Take it how you want, but the conclusion I draw is that DVDWS3 is at least being planned, maybe even being developed. The feature in question was something unusual and somewhat advanced (difficult even in Scenarist or DVDSP), not anything mentioned in this thread. The discussion would have ended much faster if DVDWS was not expected to be updated or upgraded again.

Again, take it how you want to. But common sense tells me DVDWS has a future.

DVDWS2 in fact, received several updates, including some for DL media. Although layer break is not set correctly (nor is anybody else), at least they tried, right? We know they're breathing. Maybe next time, they can do something like PgcEdit/ImgBurn.

At least they tried -- can you imaging if someone said At least they tried about DVD LabPro, or DVDit Pro 6, or Encore DVD, or DVD Architect, etc... -- would you accept that as a valid statement

I made up my mind years ago that authoring software companies don't know jack crap about burning. They all tried DL and they all failed. I don't hold anything against any of them. It's hard to be disappointed when you expected failure to begin with.

The context of my original DVDWS2 quote was more about knowing they are alive, not so much about the success of that exact update.

[terjeber]

It need also be said that I own the software, full final updated version, bought and paid for, not one of those cracked trials (which are known to have bugs and crash). Just a thought.

I love the inuendo: Maybe DVDWS wouldn't crash as much if only you had a legal copy. Sorry to dissappoint you, I have two legal and registered copies of DVD Workshop. I have legally owned DVD WS since it first came out. I have run both of my DVD WS copies on a wide variety of hardware over the past few years, and they both crash with regular intervals and obscure error messages.

Ulead has not lead us to believe that anything will be abandoned,

I disagree. As mentioned elsewhere, the official word is that it is on hold, and the fact that nothing has happened with it in over two years speaks volumes about how serious they are about it. Also, if they decide to ressurect development for the product now you will see one of two thing happening, it will either take a very long time for it to be released, or it will be released in a timely manner, but with staggering amounts of bugs. Software that hasn't really been touched by anyone in two years is notoriously hard to maintain.

Ulead has updated it's other products too in past years.

Which to a degree is my point. They have upgraded their low-end software all the time, that is where they make their money. They also upgraded Video Studio Pro to version 8 recently (after a looooong wait). I own version 7, after trying version 8 I figured the upgrade wasn't worth the money, the new features was another testament to the fact that they don't really spend a lot of time with their "high end" software.

Again, I do not fault Ulead for this at all, quite the opposite, I applaud the business savvy it takes to do this. Any business should spend their efforts on the products that make them money.

For the record, I also own Cool 3D Studio, another product that Ulead has abandoned.

They are very major a competitor to Adobe, in terms of products lines,

No, they are not. They are not even on Adobes radar. Ulead doesn't sell a single product that can seriously compete with any Adobe product, and that is saying something, I don't really like any Adobe product, even though I use more than one. OK, I like Photoshop. Kinda.

they won't be folding or selling out or merging anytime soon.

Eh, huh? They were just bought for a pittance by InterVideo, which was then bought, for two pittances, by Corel. Or maybe that was a pittance and a half.