DVD +R DL: A Story to share... (LONG)

[cboar]

When I first thought of posting to this forum it was to see if someone could help fix my problems. To be honest, although I would value any feedback, my decision to drop back to DVD-R (4.7Gb) and not use DVD+R DL is pretty much made.

I will try and keep this brief, but there is a number of steps in the story that need to be retold.

About 1 month ago I started to edit footage from 3 camera's taken at my childrens dance recital. 2 hrs of footage from 3 cameras is a lot of editting. The end product will go out to about 23 families whose kids danced too.

I ended up with a 2hr main feature and 3 smaller additional pieces. I wanted this on a single DVD, but did not want to overly compress the footage to be able to place it all on a DVD-R (my usual choice for output). I knew DL technology was out there so I purchased a Plextor 740UF drive capable of DVD +/- R DL (amongst other formats). I researched disks and ended up with 8.5Gb Verbatim (Singapore MKM001 disks).

So the editting was in Adobe Premiere 6.0. I output the main piece as an AVI file (25GB ).
For my first attempt I used Ulead MoveFactory 4.0 (which I patched to make it DL aware).
The process completed and I tried to play it on my Panasonic DVD player (its was approx $100 but does support Progressive Scan - cannot remember the model number off the top of my head sorry). It does play, and actually does play on both the layers of the disk. But I get frequent pixalation and artifacts and even sound interruptions. Also at 1:09:12 into the video it pauses for no reason.

So I went back to the DVI and used TMPGEnc 2.5 to encode from the AVI file to MPG - took forever, used a highish data rate to try and ensure quality (average 8Mb/sec) with the highest setting for detecting frame movement (read a lot of articles here - v helpful).

I then used Ulead again to burn to the disc - no better.

I then used Nero to burn the ISO image from ULead to the disc - no better.

I then used Nero to build the ISO and burn it to the disk - no better (but people here don't rate Nero for DL).

All results are about the same - playback is not acceptable. Both video and sound can be interrupted.

So I found articles here on using some different tools to build a DL disc. It was not clear to me if this would actually help my problem. I can burn to both layers of the disc. I can play back from both layers, my problem is the overall quality.

I will now produce my finished product as 2 DVD-R discs. One with the main feature on it and one for the bonus materials. I have burnt 1 disk so far (the main feature) and it plays back perfectly and I don't even know if the media I am using is that good.

The impression from this site I got is that DL discs may or may not play in set-top DVD players and so the risk was high for customer dissatisfaction.

Summary (if you have lasted this long!): I cannot see myself using DL as a distribution mechanism for video work to the general public. I also cannot believe the pain and steps we seem to go through to do this. It should be as simple as burn and deliver, with 100% confidence that it will work. We apparently have someway to go to get there...

Hope this is of use to someone!

[redwudz]

I've burned a couple of DL Verbatims to backup some DVD's using DVD Decrypter ISO Read> ISO Write, and they seemed to work with my player with no problems. That said, DL seems to still be problematic at times. Outside of being able to put more data on a single disc, I just don't have much use for the format. But that's just my opinion.

And welcome to our forums.

[trhouse]

You said so much and left out the most important factor, the brand of +DL disks used. I have found only Verbatim gives me flawless burns and I only burn +DL these days.

[lordsmurf]

DL media is not your problem, it was your choice of software.

You should have used Premiere, then exported directly to an MPEG encoder. Procoder Express is a good choice ($50). Faster, high quality than TMPGEnc, no contest.

Then author in whatever you want (TDA, SVCD2DVD, Ulead DVDWS2, etc)

Then burn with the PcgEdit method. It is really easy, uses ImgBurn to burn the disc. It's an automated process.

Use Verbatim (MKM) DVD+R DL discs, be sure they booktype to DVD-ROM (my Pioneer 109 auto-booktypes to DVD-ROM on DL media).

I just got done doing 2 projects on DL media, nothing but praise on them. They work and look great.

[Shocker Milwaukee]

I researched disks and ended up with 8.5Gb Verbatim (Singapore MKM001 disks).

You said so much and left out the most important factor, the brand of +DL disks used.

[trhouse]

I stand corrected.

[pchan]

Assuming that your encoding and authoring steps are OK, one sure way to make a compliant DL disc is to use Sonic RecordNow 7.3 burning software. Just burn data disc. It works like a charm.

I use Verbatim DL + R with Pioneer burner. No coaster so far.

Please read this thread by Edmund Blackadder. It's a bit long.
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=225001&highlight=blackadder

[cboar]

Thanks for everyones thoughts on this.

A couple of you have commented on the choice of software which may not have been optimal.

Most of the discussions around the software I have seen in articles and threads on this site to do with software and DL's is the layer break. To be honest, the layer break is the least of my problems. I don't get an acceptable quality on the first or second layer!

I have played my MPG file on my PC and it looks very good. No pixelation etc. So I assume the problem has to do either the creation of the ISO or the burn to the disc.

My gut feeling is that my DVD player (Panasonic) just does not work well with the Verbatim discs. But as I have no idea of the range of equipment the discs will get played on I need to go conversative and use my faithful DVD-R's.

Thanks again. Awesome site - learnt a great deal from everyone here.

[terjeber]

The quality of DVD players varies a lot, and some can play back DL with no problem, others can not. One thing I do notice is that you have a slightly, as you say, highish bitrate. 8M average is quite possibly more than some players can handle on burnable media.

I would go 8M max, 6M average and see if the result isn't better. There shouldn't be a significant quality drop.

I also have to add my $.02 on the burning software, the people who chip in on this are correct, the quality of your disk is very dependent on your burning software. I use DVD Architect with no problems, but some DVD burners are not recognized. I also have used DVD Workshop a bit.

[lordsmurf]

. 8M average is quite possibly more than some players can handle on burnable media.

Myth.

If a DVD player cannot handle the full spec, it is not allowed to carry the DVD logo, and is not a DVD player. They all have to support up to 9.8 or 10.08 (depends on audio).

[bobkart]

I've burned dozens of Verbatim DVD+R DL discs on my PC. I use TMPGEnc exclusively to do the MPEG encoding, then TDA to author that result to a VIDEO_TS folder, then burn that to disc using Nero, at a low speed in the case of DL discs (2.4x), takes about 45 minutes typically. Zero problems with playing these discs back on any player I try them on (I have about 4, or 8 if you count DVD Recorders as Players). DVD Writer these days is an NEC ND3450A.

You may want to check the quality of the burns using applications such as Nero CDSpeed or DVDInfoPro. The symptoms you describe just sound like bad burns. Try a different DVD Writer if you can, even a decent external drive can be had for ~$50 these days.

[terjeber]

. 8M average is quite possibly more than some players can handle on burnable media.

Myth.

If a DVD player cannot handle the full spec, it is not allowed to carry the DVD logo

Oh, no worries, I know they are supposed to handle it, but quite frankly, not all of them do. I do not know why. I create DVDs for family etc, all burned on single or dual layer DVD+R disks. One my players they all play with no problems. If I burn highest possible bit-rate, on one of my fathers DVD players, you will see pixelation, some times the video will hang a little but the sound play etc. If I burn at a lower bitrate, it doesn't happen.

I do not know why this is happening, but I do see it happen.

[bobkart]

Perhaps the player is getting read errors and having to re-read some sectors, thus not being able to keep up with the bitrate involved. At lower bitrates, the re-reading can be done while still not falling behind the real-time playback requirements of the lower bitrates. Just a thought.

[lordsmurf]

I do not know why this is happening, but I do see it happen.

It's probably a bitrate spiking above allow spec. Be it the encoder making a mistake or the authorware allowing something improperly, that is almost always the problem concerning bitrate issues.

It could be the laser pickup in general is just not working well. A disc with high bitrate and therefore less content, on a full disc, will read "faster" than a disc with more content (2 hours or more) on the same platter space. Of course, it would vomit on a lot of commercially pressed discs too.

The disc may have low reflectivity also. This could be an affect.