Getting good quality DVD from Mini DV;what's the procedure?

[bombart]

WOW! This is frustrating. I don’t even know where to start. Well, let’s start at the very beginning.

Living in Canada, I bought an NTSC MiniDv camera to start recording all my family occasions. It’s decent… Samsung D71. It takes very good quality movies. When I output it to my TV, it looks amazing. Almost like a DVD, the quality that is. Everything else is completely “amateurish”. So I thought, wouldn’t it be nice to add those professional touches to my videos by editing it on my computer. So, I bought a firewire card, and used the trials of several video editing software to determine what would be best for my purposes. I had even posted to this newsgroup about what you guys thought was the best . I got a lot of helpful responses and finally decided to buy Adobe Premiere 6.0 (Now this was getting to be a very expensive hobby. The wife was not pleased at all, but after I told her how cool it would be to have our own edited movies, she let me buy it.) So, I started editing the movies, and although the learning curve was initially steep, I got pretty comfortable with it and started loving its power. My main objective then was to be able to get a pretty good quality VCD that would play on most DVD players. So after playing around with the export settings in Premiere and looking into several plugins for premiere, I noticed that I got the best quality with Panasonic Mpeg1 encoder. The only drawback was that for like an hour or video, it took around 6-8 hours (overnight basically) to encode on my PIII 733. At the time, I had the All-In-Wonder Radeon video card. I tried capturing into MPEG1 in realtime using the analog inputs that come with the card directly from my MiniDv player. I was dropping “< 1%” of frames. The quality was amazing!!! I couldn’t tell the difference from the Panasonic Encoded VCDs to the “A-I-W Captured” VCDs. Infact, in many occasions, I thought the All-In-Wonder provided better results. Lovely! I had now found a really nice way to make my VCDs in less than 1/3 rd the amount the time. Now, after editing the movie in Premiere, I would “Export to Tape” and output the finished product to my MiniDv tape in realtime. Then, I could capture this edited video by connecting the MiniDv player’s output to the A-I-W’s imputs and get the movie in VCD compliant MPEG1 (MMC7.7) with “< 1%” frames dropped, again in real time!!! So my total time was “2 x Real Time”. So it would take like 2 hours for a one hour movie (as opposed to 6-8 hrs encoding).

Then came along DVD burners!! So I thought, wouldn’t it be lovely to be able to have all our loving memories ON DVD!!!! I mean, the quality difference we are talking about is of the sun to the moon (that’s what I told the wife). And I could have menus, cool buttons, etc that the kids love!!! So, I bought a pioneer A05 like a month ago. Here’s where all my disappointment started. Although I’ve been making backups of my DVDs with a lot of success (excellent quality!!!!) with Pinnacle InstantCopy 7 (pretty cheap), I’ve had no such luck with my home movies. Here’s what I’ve done so far.

1) Upgraded to Adobe Premiere 6.5 cause it came with an Mpeg2 encoder!
2) Downloaded CCE 2.6? and Panasonic Mpeg 2 encoder plugins.
3) Upgraded from the “All-In-Wonder Radeon” to “All-in-Wonder 7500” because the realtime capture to Mpeg2 was dropping like 30% frames. After I upgraded, was back at <1%, only this time for MPEG2

So I tried exporting the movies from premiere using the trial versions of CCE and Panasonic and the built in adobe mpeg encoder. NOW, the quality loss was soooo great!!!! Even the real time capture with the All-in-Wonder 7500 was better that those and the others took SOOOOO long!!! Anyways, I wouldn’t mind keeping the computer on all night, encoding my movies if the end result was good. However, this was hardly worth my while. So I stuck with realtime capture with the All-in-Wonder 7500. The quality was so so. So grit my teeth and went to the next step, finding a good DVD authoring program. So I get the trial version of DVD Workshop. I loved how I could make chapters and menus with such ease. So I bought it! (YEOUCH, $300 USD). What a mistake! I never tried outputting the movie with menus onto a DVD to try in my DVD player because I thought it was good enough to look at the “preview” of in on the comp. BIG MISTAKE! This is because I CAN’T GET DVD WORKSHOP TO STOP REENCODING MY MOVIES (multiplexing audio/video takes hours!). I’ve taken a look at a thread about Workshop and looked at all the advice in there and it still keeps reencoding!!! Also, I end up with a dvd that won’t play properly (video will get stuck on a certain frame but the audio continues on) and who’s quality when playing is like a VCD (worse actually).

With the encoders, the edges (of people and other objects) are sooo terrible… pixeled… etc.

Now I’ve seen DVDs of 2 friend’s weddings. The had professionals taking the video on “Minidv” and then producing DVDs after editing them and adding menus. Now, these look FANASTIC! In fact, one of them had reencoded the audio into AC3 DD audio. My question is, HOW?? I would like to have that quality on my DVDs. I understand the whole “Garbage in, garbage out” theory and I know what’s going in for me isn’t garbage, it’s pretty good, looks great when outputted from MiniDV player to TV!!!! But after the whole procedure to convert in to DVD, it’s lost all its great quality!

PLEASE HELP! I would love to create good quality DVDs with menus and AC3 sound from my MiniDv Camcorder. WOULD PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD SUCCESS PLEASE HELP OUT! I KNOW YOU’RE OUT THERE!! I’M SURE A LOT OF YOU HAVE BEEN WHERE I AM AND HAVE EITHER BEEN ADVISED ABOUT IT OF HAVE, THROUGH YOUR OWN HARD WORK FIGURED OUT THE BEST WAY!

Whatever you know can help.

CHEERS!

Bombart.

PS. Sorry if this post is a little long… I’ve carried this on my chest for a while now

PPS. Where do I post this?

[tkmk]

Most Mpeg-2 Encoders take 3x the project duration to encode, so creating a DVD is pretty time consuming. Pretty much I think you're in the right direction. First do all your editing in Premiere. After exporting the edited video back to your MiniDV Camcorder, try capturing your video using DVD Workshop through a firewire card. I believe AIW 7500 is an analog capture device that is part of a graphic card. DVD Workshop creates DVD compliant Mpeg-2 files so you wouldn't have to reencode your video. Also the newest version of DVD Workshop allows AC3 encoding. You're degrading your video when you convert your digital video to analog and back to digital.

[daznic]

Hi, I`ve been through all the same hassle as you & now have good results by doing the following:-
DV to harddrive through firewire
Edit, Save edited file as DV - so not to compress
Open in CCE 2.66 standalone version & Use settings 7000 kBps CBR (Get the field order right, & select DVD compliant !!) Convert as a Program stream combined Video & audio - Gives you an Mpeg2 file to author in your favourite Program ( I use Spruce up )
This gives you Well over an hour of amazing quality video on a DVDR - If the finished movie is too long, you could always then try running it through DVD2ONE !

Good Luck

[bombart]

Hey! Thanks so much for replying.

@tkmk: [Quote]
After exporting the edited video back to your MiniDV Camcorder, try capturing your video using DVD Workshop through a firewire card. I believe AIW 7500 is an analog capture device that is part of a graphic card. DVD Workshop creates DVD compliant Mpeg-2 files so you wouldn't have to reencode your video. [Quote]

I'm sorta confused about whether I should be using my analog inputs or my firewire card to capture into DVD Workshop. If it's analog or firewire for that matter, how is the quality on DVD Workshop's Encoding? I've heard it's not worth your while... bad encoding.

[Quote]Also the newest version of DVD Workshop allows AC3 encoding. You're degrading your video when you convert your digital video to analog and back to digital.[Quote]

Yes, I've heard about it... thanks. I intend to keep a max of an hour of video on a DVDr so will my video quality be affected that much?


@daznic:
[Quote]DV to harddrive through firewire
Edit, Save edited file as DV - so not to compress [Quote]
The "save edited file as DV" part... am I saving it as Microsoft DV - AVI in premiere? If that is the case, I heard CCE won't import that type of file? Sorry, I don't know much about this... maybe you can confirm it for me


[Quote]Open in CCE 2.66 standalone version & Use settings 7000 kBps CBR (Get the field order right, & select DVD compliant !!) [Quote]

i don't know hot to "get the field order right". I remember there is a setting for lower or upper or something like that (away from my main comp right now so I can't check) but how do I know what this setting should be?


THANKS A LOT GENTLEMEN! YOUR HELP IS MUCH APPRECIATED... IF THERE ARE ANY OTHERS WHO CAN SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS SITUATION, PLEASE DO!!

Cheers.

Bombart.

[TOMMO]

Capture your video using the FIREWIRE PORT. THis will produce far superior results.

Capture ONCE in DV format. Do all your editing in Premiere and then you have two choices:-

1. Render the edited video as MS DV effectively making one large movie. Then encode.

2. Export the movie directly as MPEG 2 from the Premiere timeline.

The advantage of option one is that you can see your finished work prior to lengthy encoding. The disadvantage of course is hard drive space.

You seem to have a multitude of enoders so take your pick. I believe I am correct in saying the field order will be LOWER FIELD first. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

Keep the bitrate up as high as you can. Do not exceed 9000kbps for the combined video and audio.

i cannot comment on DVD Workshop as I have not used it. SpruceUP or MAESTRO and MYDVD are the programs I use, but I WILL BE getting VEGAS VIDEO 4 +DVD as soon as I can.

MYDVD just accepts my DVD footage, creates the files and then I burn to DVD. Excellent quality, however the file sizes are large due to the fact that my 3.5 version uses PCM audio. But the quality is very good.

SPRUCE and MAESTRO seem to expect AC3, which I make using Softencode, good fun that is. So if using SPRUCEUP/MAESTRO, I export the video only as M2V and export the audio first as WAV then encode to AC3.

For your purposes though, you have purchased a load of stuff, high quality stuff, you should be able to use these tools to produce the results you want.

1. Capture once - do not re export to tape then backin again.

2. Edit either as DV then encode or export via the timeline using DVD compliant templates in the encoder of choice.

3. TO get results, be patient and let it encode all night if neccessary, I have and will continue to do so with my P3 866 system.

4. DVD Workshop - sorry - but I cannot really help but you should be able to use this to produce the results you want, but I have read that you can uncheck a box which stops Workshop re encoding everything. Sorry but that about it.

5. DoNOT be put off by how it looks on PC - unless absolutely awful - GARBAGE - Monitors tend not to like INTERLACED video - it should look fine on TV.

Hope this helps.

[daznic]

Hi,
Yes, use lower field first in CCE.
CCE 2.66 will accept my DV files without any intermediate conversions, but i`m using Pal not NTSC. If you have a problem importing DV files the Canopus DV file converter may help - I`ve not used this but maybe others can shed light on CCE having problems accepting your DV file.

No comercial editing programs can convert to Mpeg2 anywhere near as good as CCE or TMPGenc, it`s worth the wait for the quality difference, My PC 1.2Ghz Athlon, 256MBRAM will convert a DV file in CCE with the settings i described at about 0.6x which isn`t too bad.

It`s true that your finished video will look bad on you monitor compared to the finished movie on the DVD. If it looks jerky on your finished DVD, try reversing the fiel order to upper, but I think Lower first is correct for CCE. Another thing to note is that the description of field order is different in different programs, CCE may call it Lower field first, but Tmpgenc may call it field A, just try both, it will be obvious on you TV if its wrong.

DV in through Firewire - Not Analogue !!!!
Edit in Premiere
Save as DV
Convert in CCE2.66
Author in Spruce - up
Burn in Record now max

Perfect !!

[tkmk]

Bombart,
I told you that you should try capturing in DVD Workshop. Actually, I agree with daznic. Try capturing your footage using Premiere using firewire. After editing your footage, you can either encode it directly to Mpeg-2 using Cinema Craft Encoder Premiere Plug-in. Or you could export it to a DV file on your harddisk and then use CCE standalone to convert it to Mpeg-2. The best software encoders are TMPGenc (slow) and CCE (fast) in the market. Since you've spent money on CCE, you should use it. CCE does pretty fast encoding (almost in realtime) so I think you would be better off using the encoder than doing a realtime capture. I understand that DVD Workshop reencodes your movie. Have you checked the settings? During the finish step (where you choose to make a DVD disc or image) there should be an option not to encode compliant files. Also check your Mpeg-2 files are in DVD specs. Basically DVD specification defines Mpeg-2 files to be 720x480/704x480 (D1 resolution) or 352x480 (half D1 resolution) plus audio with 48hz frequency either in LPCM (no compression), Mpeg , or AC3 format. Also you must make sure that your Mpeg-2 files are not over a specific bitrate. As you can read from https://www.videohelp.com/dvd, you cannot have you Mpeg-2 files abobe 9.5 Mb/s. You should get very good results with VBR (Variable Bit Rate) at around 6 Mb/s. I don't use CCE so I really cannot help you with it, but I understand there are many settings you can play with in CCE. Good luck.

[yg1968]

First, most software have trial versions. You shouldn't buy software unless you are happy with the trial version.

Anyways, the good news is that you have everything that you need.

I use a diffrent process but I get good results. Here are the steps that I use:

1- Capture DV avi with Premiere or any other program (for example Windows Movie Maker or DVapp (freeware)).

2- Encode using TMPGEnc. Bottom filed first. I use TMPGEnc and CQ 75%. Min 5000, Max 8000. TMPGENc is worth the $50. They also have a trial version. CCE is too expensive. Although, I have read there is a CCE home edition for $60 coming out.

3- import the mpeg in your authoring program. I use Dazzle DVD complete but DVD workshop is also very good.

4- I have had some problems with RW disks. especially those that have been written to more than once. You will get less problems with R disks.

For DVD workshop not to re-encode, I think that the mpeg bitrate settings in DVD workshop has to be higher than the bitrate of your imported file. Surprisingly, I think that checking or unchecking the "do not re-encode box" doesn't make much of a difference. Try it checked and unchecked. You should be able to find the answer to this question with a search. I know this issue has been discussed on this website:

www.dvdplusrw.org

P.S. Some programs (for example virtualdub) have difficulty with type 1 DV files. If that is the case, you can capture your DV in type 2 DV avi with DVapp or DVIO (freewares).

[tomclary]

FYI, there is a similar thread in the Advanced Conversion forum. I have made a few related discoveries. The Microsoft DV Codec that is part of DirectX 8.1 and earlier versions deinterlaces Type 1 DV format data. CCE uses this codec and is thus not getting the best quality video. I found with DirectX 8.1, it did not matter much if I specified Upper Frame First or not. Which makes sense now that I know the MS DV Codec was deinterlacing and providing a full frame. I upgraded to DirectX 9 which has documented changes to no longer deinterlace at the DV Codec and was now getting interlaced video in CCE. You can tell by going to where you can exactly specify the frame duration to encode and looking at the frame of video. I found the best quality to be no Upper Frame First and then using changer.exe to specify bottom frame first in the video. For whatever reason, CCE always sets top frame first. This is CCE 2.66.01.07, by the way.

I know Ulead MovieFactory and I believe WorkShop capture over firewire as Type 1 files.

I rolled back to DirectX 8.1 because MovieFactory now failed to include the audio on DVD-R I burned. I am still investigating that issue.