DVD+R in DVD-R burner?

[Simmerheli]

Ok folks. Can someone spill the beans?

Can I burn DVD+R media in my DVD-R burner (or visa-versa)?
If not why?

My question stems from the following:

1) A bit is a bit. 4.7Gig is 4.7Gig no matter what media, correct?
2) Manufacturers market their media as either DVD-R or DVD+R, etc.

As I see it the reason can only be one (or any combo) of the following:

A) The meaning of the bits on the media differ between DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD-RAM, etc. If this is true then the difference is Format, correct?
(This includes standards such as ISO-9660, El Torito, UDF, etc.).

B) The reflectivity of the media differs between media types.

C) The size of the pits and hills recorded on the media differs between media types.

If either B) or C) exists, then I can see that media has to be tied to a particular burner as advertized.

However, if neither B) nor C) exist, then the only difference is format, correct? This leads a person to reason that media is not necessarily tied to burner.

Any clues?

Thanks all

-Mike

[kitty]

Although biased,on the "+" side, see
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/pc/pccomparison.html

[Simmerheli]

Thanks for the link kitty.

The info on the link kinda still aludes to a difference only in format, lossless data, linking, recovery, etc. all alude to format such as UDF.

If this is the case, a DVD-R burner could burn DVD-R format onto a DVD-R marketed piece of media as easily as it could a piece of DVD+R media (unless the material on DVD-R and DVD+R media differ in how they respond to lazer intensity or something. However, multi-compatible DVD-Players I don't believe have more then one laser. Then they must be either refocusing the laser to be able to read the different media types or else simply interpreting the bit streams being read from the media differently, which again brings us back to format. And if format, then it really shouldn't matter what type of DVD media (DVD- or DVD+) we burn in a writable DVD device, the media should accept whatever format, kinda like our PC's HDs can be formatted FAT16, FAT32, NTFS, etc. correct)?

Hmmmmm.

Interesting, don't you think.

Anyone?

Thanks

-Mike

[solarfox]

Actually, "Multiread" DVD players usually do have a dual-laser pickup system; a 780 nanometer (nm) infrared laser for reading CD/CD-R(W) media, and a 650 nm red laser for DVD/DVD+-R(W) reading. The dyes used in CD-R media often aren't as reflective at 650nm as they are at 780nm, which is one of the big reasons why older single-laser DVD players can't read CD-R's properly. (This is especially true of the CD-R's with black or colored data surfaces; the plastic they use is transmissive of infrared, but opaque to one or more wavelengths of visible light.)

From what little I've been able to dig up, the only physical difference I can find between DVD-R and DVD+R media is that DVD-R uses a wavelength-sensitive dye layer, while DVD+R's dye layer is not wavelength-sensitive. Since both formats supposedly use 650nm lasers for writing, I'm not entirely sure what difference this makes (unless the article I read this in was failing to differentiate between DVD-R(General) and DVD-R(Authoring)...)

However, don't forget that even a blank recordable-DVD isn't entirely blank, in the way that a blank floppy disc or an unpartitioned/unformatted hard drive is. There is information already permanently encoded into the pregoove, containing such vital data as the disc type, manufacturer, and so on; therefore, even if the media was otherwise entirely write-compatible, one reason a DVD-R drive would refuse to write to +R media (and vice-versa) is that it won't recognize the disc type as being anything it can write to.

[-jsl-]

The addressing is one major thing that differs. DVD-R/RW uses Land Pre-Pit (LPP) and DVD+R/RW modulates the addressing information in the wobbled groove, ADIP (ADress In Pre-groove). See:

http://www.pioneer.co.jp/crdl/tech/dvd/6-3-e.html
http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/docs/technical_intro.pdf
http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/
http://verbatim.com/products/images/dvd_format_comp.pdf
for more info.

[Cornucopia]

so to summarize -jsl-,

They're not compatible because of "C" and also somewhat "B", and also
"D" (ADIP info and DVD book flag).

I'm sure it's been tried. I can attest to similar failed attempts with DVD-RAM media.

Scott

[kitty]

When I RTFM, I tend to believe the designers.

So I don't F up, I bought a Sony. Now I can throw in any disc but DVD-RAM so it narrows my wrong kinda disk failure rate considerably.

[Gil T Pleasure]

The addressing is one major thing that differs. DVD-R/RW uses Land Pre-Pit (LPP) and DVD+R/RW modulates the addressing information in the wobbled groove, ADIP (ADress In Pre-groove).

So would this effectively make it impossible to create a DVD±R/RW disc that can be burned on either DVD+RW or DVD-RW drive?

Imagine having one disc for your DVD+RW or DVD-RW drive. That would be kewl 8)

[bartman]

In theory, as long as the players firmware knew how to burn to each type of disk it could (this is what the sony does).....so if there was enough room in the flash rom and the politics were right it could be possible to burn a + disk in a - drive (and vice versa).

I wish something would end the format wars once and for all.....but here is what could happen:

a) one format will win....those that bought drives in the opposite format..well...tough.

b) nothing will change and we will have + and - forever....possibly they might drift into different areas..i.e. +disks mainly used in set top recorders and - disks used on PC's

c) they will merge into one format and either everyone will get a firmware update or thet will have to go and buy new drives.

[thxkid]

well I think alot has to do with the companies and the 2 formats,

Panasonic DVD recorders DMR-E10 and E20, say you can not play a DVD+R or DVD+RW in these machines.

Sure enough, I got a HP DVD200i, and no +R or +RW would play in these players.

BUT!!!!

went to PlusRW.org got a free Bitsetter, changed my HP to where it burns all my +R and +RW as DVD-ROM, walla all of a sudden they will play in any and all players even the DVD-R Panasonic Recorders, so I believe they may be putting some type of digital codes on the discs or in the machines, cause the companies that support -R camp all say that +R's will not play in their DVD Players, all of a sudden a little free program comes and WAM they will play in it, that Bitsetter program says it will work with all +R burners except the Sony 500a, find it strange.
Which brings me back to this thread, how different are these 2 formats when one offers a program to allow +R's to play on machine that only support -R's because how it is recorded.

[thxkid]

OK here is the actual web page on the bitsetter

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/resources/bitsettings.html

[Simmerheli]

Ah huh!!!!

So now we are getting somewhere.

It appears that there IS a difference in manufacturing (dies perhaps) that may skew one type of media to one type of standard (DVD-R to DVD-R, DVD+xx to DVD+xx, etc).

Interesting thing though is thxkid's comments on bitsetter (a program I've not heard of up till now). This seems to suggest that by altering some bits/bytes/structures on the media one can coerce a peice of media from the + camp to a - camp. Hmmm... interesting.

In the mean time, however, I think I'll stick to my burner-compatibility matrix and patiently await the outcome of the plus/minus pendulum.

Interesting musing though. :P
Thanks all.

-Mike

[yg1968]

Why not get the Sony DRU-500A? It burns to DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-RW and DVD+RW.

[Simmerheli]

yg1968

Thanks for the suggestion on the Sony drive. I checked it out and it looks like a very nice device. Hmmm, tempting...

Question though. Do you have this drive and if so how long have you had it?

I ask because I havn't had really steller results with Sony products (mine have seemed to break down sooner then I think they should and I don't think I'm particularly rough on electronic devices...).

Thanks

-Mike

[yg1968]

No I don't have it but many people have posted their experience on it in other threads. I have an HP DVD 200i Writer and I am very happy with it. At the time that I bought it, the Sony DRU-500A was not yet out. You can read of other's experience on this website or on this one: www.dvdplusrw.org