what type of vcd have I created??

[kerrang]

I have recently purchased a maxim dvd player from woolworths and have not been able to play my svcd`s without audio sync problems.
Vcd`s work great and the helpline from the manufacturer says it should also play svcd`s.

I have tried numerous templates for svcd with no luck until I tried the
KVCDx2-CQ-704x576-_PAL_-PLUS.mcf template and even though it took 6 hours it worked ok.

I burned an image using VCDeasy to get chapters and ticked svcd and unticked the check mpeg compliance.

So is this disc a vcd/svcd/xvcd???
anyone out there know?

[Eclypse]

Well it would depend on the bitrate of the file, 1000 to 1500 would be a VCD/sVCD, 1500 to 2520 would xVCD, and DVD generally runs about 4000+ Kbps.

[Nelson37]

NO, no, no.

An XVCD is MPEG-1, an XSVCD is MPEG-2. Bitrate irrelevant.

Check your audio sampling rate and bitrate, if your issue is synch only it may just need fine tuning. Use BBMpeg to mux and VCDimager to image before burning, this worked for my Apex.

[pepehdez]

MPEG-1 704x576 25fps CQ_VBR 12, Layer-2 44100Hz 128kbps

It's an XVCD. (_MPEG1_VideoCD_Illegal) Just an altered VCD. Not a SVCD at all, but still good quality.

[vitualis]

BTW, the "KVCD" templates are simply a type of XVCD.

XVCD = non-standard/non-compliant VCD.

Basically, no player is designed to play back "XVCD". Many will but if you go too far off spec, play back problems will arise.

If you want to try SVCD, just use TMPGEnc and use the SVCD templates.

Regards.

[kwag]

I have recently purchased a maxim dvd player from woolworths and have not been able to play my svcd`s without audio sync problems.
Vcd`s work great and the helpline from the manufacturer says it should also play svcd`s.

I have tried numerous templates for svcd with no luck until I tried the
KVCDx2-CQ-704x576-_PAL_-PLUS.mcf template and even though it took 6 hours it worked ok.

I burned an image using VCDeasy to get chapters and ticked svcd and unticked the check mpeg compliance.

So is this disc a vcd/svcd/xvcd???
anyone out there know?

To give you the correct answer, you made an XVCD when you burned your KVCD MPEG-1 file to disk. The MPEG-1 file you made, is not an XVCD. KVCD is not a template. It just so happens that TMPEG "Provides" the feature for user modifications, and makes that available as templates. KVCD started as a method and modifications on MPEG-1, so it applies to any encoder that can "Encode" with special modifications as non standard Q Matrix, Non- standard GOP structures, etc. That is KVCD, which is far from a template. Anyone who still thinks KVCD is a "Template", well, LOLROTF

-kwag

[vitualis]

Don't make it more than it is kwag.

Your "KVCD" is exactly a template. A template being a "set of encoding settings". By your own words, "KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix". That is, it is a way of encoding MPEG video with some alternative settings. I think that the best way to characterise these group of settings as a template.

You have not re-invented MPEG. Sure, some of your methods are innovative and that's great, but ultimately, what makes "KVCD" different from say a "standard VCD" are the different encoding parameters --> hence template.

Regards.

[kwag]

Don't make it more than it is kwag.

Your "KVCD" is exactly a template. A template being a "set of encoding settings". By your own words, "KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix". That is, it is a way of encoding MPEG video with some alternative settings. I think that the best way to characterise these group of settings as a template.

You have not re-invented MPEG. Sure, some of your methods are innovative and that's great, but ultimately, what makes "KVCD" different from say a "standard VCD" are the different encoding parameters --> hence template.

Regards.

Sorry Michael! But you have a lot to learn on what can be acomplished with a lot of math and special techniques that were never designed to be applied to MPEG-1 . That's KVCD, and the MPEG-1s we're doing are second to none. You want to believe otherwise, fine. Keep making SVCDs on 3 o 4 disks. We'll have more fun with higher quality on less media

Have a nice christmas 8)

-kwag

[vitualis]

Sorry kwag, but all your smiley faces hasn't convinced anyone on how your magical KVCD is somehow not a template.

As I've stated before, your KVCD templates are just that. I'm not saying that they are bad -- some of them work quite well. However, they are simply encoding settings you are giving to the MPEG encoder. I'm sure you think that you derived those settings by ingenious methods and perhaps you did. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a group of encoding settings.

Group of encoding settings --> template.

If you are honest with yourself, you'll stop trying to convince people that KVCD isn't a template. It is. You should be trying to convince them that it is the BEST X/S/VCD templates around (which they may well be).

You are ultimately still making MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 files and you are ultimately still making X/S/VCDs. Even if your MPEG-1s really are second to none, it doesn't change this fundamental fact.

Merry Christmas to you too!

Regards.

[Nelson37]

KWAG - to be honest, the statement you are making, combined with some statements and attitudes made in the past by someone who sounded like your younger brother, are the main reason I have not tried your methods to any great extent.

The settings for KVCD can be totally contained in a TMPGENC Template. Using that template results in a KVCD. Therefore, the KVCD method can be implemented simply by using this particular template. You yourself distribute this template as the way to make a KVCD.

It may be a great template, the claims made for it may be exaggerated. Both may be true.

But it is still a template.

[kwag]

But it is still a template.

Then would you care to explain to everyone reading this post, how would you call this if KVCD parameters were to be used in a encoder that doesn't have any provisions to change GOP, matrix, etc. ? That is if the MPEG-1 produced, creates a file with these specifications? Remember, there are no "User Defined" settings, but the MPEG-1 created does create CQ mode encoding with exact tailored KVCD parameters?
For example, if I stream a MPEG-1 file over the web which has been encoded with KVCD optimized parameters. Where is the template there? I don't see it. Do you? If I have a real-time surveillance system, recording 352x240 LBR based encoded MPEG-1. That is, I specified a manufacturer to "hard code" KVCD specifications on a hardware chip, to produce extremely long play time. Where's the template? Oh, btw, are you ready to say that Specifications=Template?
Before, all comments on this site about KVCD were that it was nothing more than a XVCD. Now I see all comments changed to "It's a template" Next thing you'll know is your DVD player will be supporting DivX and as a bonus KVCD MPEG files. Will that ever happen? Probably not. But believe me when I say that the efforts are on the way from our end, and the pressure is on the way by many users who continue to request manufacturers "KVCD" support in their players. In the long run, who benefits? All of us. Because if manufacturers make DVD players capable of more flexible decoding on MPEG-1 ( and MPEG-2 ) I won't care if they say it supports KVCD or not. I care that then I'll be able to throw any MPEG file no matter what bit rate, GOP or whatever, and it will play. Just think about that for a moment.

-kwag

[SansGrip]

Now let's not, as my grandfather once remarked, get all semantical .

While it's true that TMPGEnc treats the KVCD optimizations as a template, it's quite possible to implement them in such a way that no "template" is involved at all.

In other words, the KVCD optimizations are currently expressible as a TMPGEnc template file. They might not be in the future if plans for a KVCD-specific encoder come to fruition, which will be able to take advantage of optimizations to the MPEG-1 and -2 encoding process that are currently unavailable to us. The TMPGEnc template is simply the medium through which the message is conveyed. Anyone who quotes Marshall McLuan back at me gets bonus points .

The fact of the matter is that the KVCD optimizations, as expressed in their current form through TMPGEnc templates, provide a way to encode video and audio onto one CD or two CDs with a quality level that is usually stated to be impossible. I think what riles kwag (and anyone else who participates in his quest) the most is when people who admit they've never tried his optimizations make assumptions about their capabilities.

My recommendation to anyone wanting to comment on KVCD is this: read the forums, learn the latest techniques, download the latest tools, work with them, encode a few movies, and play them in your DVD player. If you aren't satisfied with the results then please feel free to raise your objections in the appropriate forum and I promise they will be addressed in a reasonable and learned manner.

There's really nothing to get so worked up about here. If you like the way the KVCD optimizations treats your movies, then use them. If you don't like it, don't use them. It's as simple as that .

Regards,
SansGrip

[poopyhead]

Before, all comments on this site about KVCD were that it was nothing more than a XVCD.

errr...isn't kVCD a non-compliant MPEG-1??? basically, you tell people to burn the .mpg file as non-compliant VCD. how is that not a xVCD, just with the extra modifications you made???

also, i don't see the basis to promote kVCD quality comparable to that of DVD. the sharpness difference can be easily seen even between kVCD and SVCD. you might be able to make a case about kVCD>>VCD, but a properly encoded SVCD will definitely be higher quality than kVCD. the only point it seems is that kVCD can just fit more stuff on CD-Rs at decent quality, but i dunno about comparing its quality to that of SVCDs and DVDs.

[kwag]

errr...isn't kVCD a non-compliant MPEG-1??? basically, you tell people to burn the .mpg file as non-compliant VCD.

Of course it's a non-compliant VCD. And that's the beauty of it. Those DVD players that can play KVCD MPEG-1s, will enjoy higher quality that any VCD or SVCD. It's all a matter of optimizations. Those who prefer "Standards" will have "Standard" quality on their DVD(VCD)players. Those who rather tune and tweak their system ( like us! ), will enjoy more play time and higher quality per media. If you prefer the "standard" way, good for you. I respect that. But for those of us who can technically tweak and bend the standards to achieve higher experiences, KVCD is "Creme de la creme"

-kwag

[Faceman101]

KVCD = XVCD, that is it.

[vitualis]

kwag, you are obviously missing the point.

No one is saying that KVCD is no longer "XVCD" and a template. It is still XVCD and it is basically still a template and always will be.

Why?

As you say yourself, it is optimisations of SETTINGS of MPEG-1/2 and as long as it remains that way, KVCD will always be specific MPEG encoding settings. Whether any particular MPEG encoder can or cannot encode your particular settings is rather irrelevant.

As such, it is boiled down to a template.

You want to create an MPEG encoder that is more flexible and utilise your ideas? GREAT! Truly. However, it is still an MPEG encoder. Don't confuse the issue by calling it a "KVCD" encoder.

What you seem to be insinuating is that you can somehow magically transform KVCD into something else with your "optimisations". You cannot. Unless you break free of MPEG-1/2 schema altogether that is and then you can truly call KVCD something different.

Of course, it is needless to say that then such an encoding (i.e., non-compliant MPEG as opposed to non-compliant S/VCD) will not play on a stand-alone player that is based on hardware MPEG decoders.

As for a "KVCD" specified player? I admire your capacity to dream and if you keep up your enthusiasm you will go a long way... However, until your "KVCD" becomes more popular than DivX, the chances of a "KVCD capable" player in specifications is a long way away indeed.

Regards.

[kwag]

While it's true that TMPGEnc treats the KVCD optimizations as a template, it's quite possible to implement them in such a way that no "template" is involved at all.

And that's exactly my point, but I guess it's useless for me to try and keep explaining, because for them I will always be wrong. It's good to know some people understand the terms and have a broader understanding of the efforts that have taken place to produce KVCD parameters

KVCD = XVCD, that is it.

Sorry man, KVCD != XVCD. Quote from out main page:
KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix. It enables you to create up to 120 minutes of high quality video, depending on your material, on a single 80 minute CD-R/CD-RW.

And that is not true anymore, as the new LBR parameters create up to 180 minutes with quality EQUAL to a VCD. We've provided several samples on the threads to prove that in the last 3 or 4 days

If you want to call KVCD "templates", that's fine. We'll call it methods, modifications and parameters which are not tied to any specific encoder, and hopefully will be the parameters use on our KVCD Encoder Project ( Which doesn't have, know, or need templates )

-kwag

[kerrang]

Thanx for the replies.

Sorry if I have caused any friction calling kvcd a template but being a newbie Thats what I thought it was.

Anyway the best thing is that template or not I can now encode dvd rips using your kvcd (settings/template?) and play them on my maxim dvd which is what I could not do with any orther template/settings!!

[poopyhead]

Sorry man, KVCD != XVCD. Quote from out main page:
KVCD is a modification to the standard MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 GOP structure and Quantization Matrix. It enables you to create up to 120 minutes of high quality video, depending on your material, on a single 80 minute CD-R/CD-RW.

as long as kVCD still uses mpeg-1, then it's basically a xVCD. you can try to call it something else (even name it after yourself), but since kVCD is still a mpeg-1, you can't escape being xVCD.

i also have to agree with vitualis, in terms of compression:quality ratio...divx is still the preferred choice over kVCD. a properly done 2 disc divx is gonna have higher quality than a 2 disc properly done kVCD. if there were to be any new format player, it would definitely be divx. mpeg-1/2 can only go so far (even with all your modifications)...mpeg-4 still has better compression.

[kwag]

a properly done 2 disc divx is gonna have higher quality than a 2 disc properly done kVCD.

Not any more my friend, not any more. Wake up and smell the coffee It's the other way around. Look at what LOTR will look like on 2 CDs: http://mitglied.lycos.de/catch22tx2000/lotr528x576cq72.28.m1v
And we haven't finished the latest optimizations yet

Edit: Rename the file so the extension is .mpg instead of .m1v. Then view it on WinDVD or PowerDVD. If you view it with WMP, the aspect will not look correct.

-kwag

[poopyhead]

kwag,

you still haven't addressed the fact that your kVCD is basically nothing more than a xVCD.... non-compliant mpeg-1 (even burned in nero as non-compliant VCD)..nothing more

[kwag]

kwag,

you still haven't addressed the fact that your kVCD is basically nothing more than a xVCD.... non-compliant mpeg-1 (even burned in nero as non-compliant VCD)..nothing more

No poopyhead. You still can't get it in your "poopyhead" that XVCD is a "non-existent" name created in the industry for something that is not a VCD. And VCD is a "format". It's a specification for a "disk format" that Philips created. That is what a VCD is. There's a HUGE difference from "MPEG-1" to "VCD". They are not the same thing. So KVCD is not an XVCD. KVCD is an MPEG-1 "format", whether you like it or not. Non-compliant MPEG-1? You're WRONG again. Quoting the book Video Demystified, by author Keith Jack, page 519:

MPEG-1 is an ISO standard (ISO/IEC 11172), and consists of six parts:
System ISO/IEC 11172-1
Video ISO/IEC/11172-2
Audio ISO/IEC 111172-3
Low bit rate audio ISO/IEC 13818-2
Conformance testing ISO/IEC/ 11172-4
Simulation software ISO/IEC 11172-5

"The compression algorithms are up to the individual manufacturers (KVCD?), allowing a propietary advantage to be obtained within the scope of an international standard"

Now can you dig that?, or what part of it don't you understand?
Do you actually have an idea of the flexibility that was designed into MPEG-1? I don't think so. You know why? Because the parameters that are designed into KVCD are not related AT ALL to a VCD. They are related to MPEG-1, and MPEG-1 "never specified a specific GOP or Quantization matrix". So there you have it. In black and white. KVCD IS an MPEG-1 format, as defined by provisions provided from the ISO standards.

References:
(1) Digital Video Magazine, "Not all MPEGs are created equal" by john Toebes, Dough Walker, and Paul Kaiser, August 1995.
(2) Digital Video Magazine, "Squeeze the most from MPEG", by Mark Magel, August 1995.
(3) ISO/IEC 11172-1, Coding of moving pictures and associated audio for digital storage media at up to 1.5Mbit/s, Part 1: System
(4) ISO/IEC 11172-2, Coding of moving pictures and associated audio for digital storage media at up to 1.5Mbit/s, Part 2: Video.
(5) ISO/IEC 11172-3, Coding of moving pictures and associated audio for digital storage media at up to 1.5 Mbit/s, Part 3: Audio.

I hope this clears ALL the "incorrect" information that has been previously posted by individuals who didn't have the correct definition of what MPEG-1 is and what can be allowed/tailored by individual manufacturers/companies to produce MPEG-1 streams that are within the MPEG-1 specifications, but have "propietary compression advantage". And that's KVCD

-kwag

[vitualis]

I notice that you didn't even try replying to my previous post...

Now who is playing with semantics?

It should be clear that when someone mentions VCD, they can also mean "VCD standard/compliant MPEG-1 files". This is clear. We all know that "VCD" is not "MPEG-1" per se.

What poopyhead is saying (in spirit if not in detail) is completely correct. Your KVCD is basically a XVCD (if you plan to put it on a video disc) -- with an XVCD being a non-compliant VCD.

You cannot escape this fact.

Similarly, you cannot escape the fact that your KVCD templates, modifications, call it what you will, is still creating MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 files. You are not creating a new "KVCD" format and as such, you should not be calling it this. What makes your "KVCD" different from say your stock standard VCD is simply the different MPEG encoding settings. Thus, as I've said many times before on this thread, KVCD is best characterised by a combination of settings and what better word than template to describe it?

If you insist on calling the encoded video KVCD then the term is completely meaningless. Why not call the video output file CCE makes "CinemaCraft Video Format" or perhaps TMPGEnc encoded video "Tsunami Super Video"?? The output remains to be called MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 as this is what they are.

As long as your "KVCD" remain optimisations of MPEG-1/2, the produced video should be called MPEG.

Don't try to confuse the issue by grandstanding that "KVCD" is more than it is.

As for your comments about DivX/MPEG-4, pull the other one (or perhaps you should try using DivX more often). You would have to be the only person who has openly claimed that at the same bitrate (a low one too at that) they can get MPEG-1 to perform better than MPEG-4.

Regards.

[kwag]

I notice that you didn't even try replying to my previous post...

I don't need to

"The compression algorithms are up to the individual manufacturers, allowing a propietary advantage to be obtained within the scope of an international standard"

Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Solaris, AI/X are all UNIX variations which also allow for propietary advantages. They each have their individual names/trademarks, etc., but they are all UNIX ( Or UNIX based ).
So KVCD is an MPEG-1 variation. Period.
Yes, you said it's still MPEG-1. Yes it is, but with a different twist that we call "KVCD"

-kwag

[poopyhead]

kwag,

considering what you have claimed so far, you still tell people to burn kVCDs as non-compliant VCDs....can't escape that fact

[kwag]

kwag,

considering what you have claimed so far, you still tell people to burn kVCDs as non-compliant VCDs....can't escape that fact

If you can find another way to put an MPEG-1 file on a CD-R, that will play on almost every standalone DVD player, please let us know. I'm pretty sure thousands will like to hear you
Oh, wait! I forgot! KDVD will go in a DVD as a standard file. Even DVDit or DVD Workshop read the file as a compliant DVD mpeg file! So you have two choices: Use regular MPEG-2 encodings and put ~2 hours on a DVD(+-)R, or use KDVD(KVCD) parameters and put ~5 hours on a DVD(+-)R with the same quality.
It's your choice

-kwag

[poopyhead]

If you can find another way to put an MPEG-1 file on a CD-R, that will play on almost every standalone DVD player, please let us know. I'm pretty sure thousands will like to hear you

well then, you basically tell people to burn kVCDs as xVCDs, yet you still believe kVCDs aren't xVCDs??? until you find away to burn kVCDs as something else, then don't say kVCDs are anything more than xVCDs

Use regular MPEG-2 encodings and put ~2 hours on a DVD(+-)R, or use KDVD(KVCD) parameters and put ~5 hours on a DVD(+-)R with the same quality.

hah, that's a joke! same quality, huh? don't even try to compare kVCDs to SVCDs, stick with blasting standard VCDs. Anyone who has watched original DVDs and properly made SVCDs can easily see the softness of kVCDs.

btw, if a divx standalone player ever becomes mainstream, you can kiss your kVCD goodbye. just ask anyone and they will all say divx has a much better quality:compression ratio than you can ever tweak from mpeg-1.

[kwag]

If you can find another way to put an MPEG-1 file on a CD-R, that will play on almost every standalone DVD player, please let us know. I'm pretty sure thousands will like to hear you

well then, you basically tell people to burn kVCDs as xVCDs, yet you still believe kVCDs aren't xVCDs??? until you find away to burn kVCDs as something else, then don't say kVCDs are anything more than xVCDs

I won't discuss this anymore. You just don't want to accept the facts above.

Use regular MPEG-2 encodings and put ~2 hours on a DVD(+-)R, or use KDVD(KVCD) parameters and put ~5 hours on a DVD(+-)R with the same quality.

hah, that's a joke! same quality, huh? don't even try to compare kVCDs to SVCDs, stick with blasting standard VCDs. Anyone who has watched original DVDs and properly made SVCDs can easily see the softness of kVCDs.

You obviously have a reading handicap . Go back and read the post. I'm talking about KDVD not KVCD

btw, if a divx standalone player ever becomes mainstream, you can kiss your kVCD goodbye. just ask anyone and they will all say divx has a much better quality:compression ratio than you can ever tweak from mpeg-1.

Where have you been lately ??? Standalone DivX players already exist! The problem is that DivX is not standardized yet as MPEG-1 and MPEG-2, and you'll be needing to update your firmware constantly. Just search the net and see how many people are having an "Unwonderful" time playing DivX on their standalone, when they try to play a file that was encoded with MPEG-4(Low), MPEG-4(high), DivX 3.x, DivX 4.x, DivX 5.x, XviD x.x, and then audio on some is mpeg, ac3, mp3, golly what a mess
( But KVCDs play in 99% of DVD/VCD players ) And you can kiss your KISS DVD player good bye. Actual brand name
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/021022/047810.html

-kwag

[vitualis]

KVCDs which are your particular slant on XVCD do not play on 99% of of DVD players. Your own compatibility chart makes that pretty obvious. As for "standardisation", MPEG-4 is as standardised as MPEG-1. The problem is that many people don't necessarily follow a particular set of specifications when making their video clips. In this regard, it is then no different from your "KVCD" MPEG-1 files.

Also, I see you insist on calling your particular MPEG-1/2 files "KVCD". Well, it is up to you really, but I think that is confusing for beginners and for advanced users patently ridiculous.

As for Linux.. etc. being Unix variations, that they are. But what you claim is KVCD is not an MPEG variation (i.e., something based on MPEG but is different from it). It is MPEG. Sure you are encoding it with settings different from what is commonly done but it is fully within the realm of standard MPEG.

Regards.

[Faceman101]

Your LOTR sample has a SVCD bitrate but MPG1 with an odd aspect ratio.

When played on my Apex 1500 it's scrambled.

When played on the computer you can see blocks on the walls and everything looks smooth and soft.

So what would this encoding be good for? A one CD packup of MPG for the comp?

I see what Kwag is saying in how he wants his KVCD to be a different format, BUT! he is still using VCD in his title. Right there it is saying it is a XVCD. XVCD being anything besides a standard VCD. To have your MPG encoding classified as anything else you would need to make a strong case for a new format of MPG encoding and your own header file. Until then, you have your self XVCDs and XSVCDs.