VCD/SVCD/CVD why not just Divx..What am I missing?

[hardwork12]

I have learned a lot from all of you and now have had a chance to get some first hand experience with all of this encoding stuff something I knew nothing about 2 months ago. With that has come some frustration and caused me to rethink what I really need. So the answer to the following question (s) I hope will point me in a sensible direction without compromising the future use of my equipment. Better to wait or spend a little extra now if that makes sense long term. So this is what I am thinking about.

What can I do with VCD/SVCD/CVD that I can’t do with Divx with regard to playback quality and features. I live in the USA so that may have some bearing on this question. I pose this question assuming I can build or buy a Divx player for the TV (playing on the TV is a requirement for me). Please do not take this question the wrong way I am just trying to understand the tradeoffs before I invest in hardware not that I think VCD/SVCD/CVD are of no use but rather what am I giving up going Divx only.

I have played with all the formats as best I could, made possible by all the much appreciated support from individuals here and at other reference sites. Obviously I am not the best at encoding but no matter what I do My CVD’s have no better playback quality than my Divx when played on my TV using my s-video out. Either way they are both very good and quite acceptable even on my 53” TV. I purchased a DVD player that could play my CVD’s and that did not look any better than when played with my PC video out so I returned it for now.

The other obvious possibility is to get a good DVD recorder and do everything in DVD format. This seems very expensive for the near term both in hardware and the media is also expensive. That will change I am sure in the next 12 months quite dramatically I hope.

So what would I be giving up if I just go Divx this seems like the ideal solution? The video plays as well on the PC as the TV (all interlacing is removed) and uses the inexpensive CD-r media? So I am obviously missing something important here.

Appreciate your input.

OH let me not forget Happy Holidays to all

[SatStorm]

Thanks and Happy hollidays to you to.
This is not about quality.
Is like saying: Why people have Audio CDs, Mp3s are the same or even better with much less filesize.
You are OK with DivX, a great PC based format, only for power PC users (about 5% worldwide), and only for people ready to accept PCs on their living rooms.
Well, most of people ain't that way! Sorry.
You have to realise that for most people, computers are evil and complicated multifaced terrible montsers, and they hate them. Expecially for the 30 something and more. (For US that might be 35+ something, at least on big cities). Even if they use some kind of computers, like calculators, digital watches, game consoles, DVDs, digital recievers, mobile phones, etc, PCs are evil. A typical wife hate PCs, a typical kid mess up PCs, your parents hate PCs, and expecially your wife ones!
There is nothing with DiVX, it is better. But it is not for mainstream people and it is not a standard! It is an PC/Internet thing, while DVD/VCD is a global thing.

[hardwork12]

Maybe you are right on track (except I am over 40+ ) But two things. Myself I am a systems engineer and computers are connected to me. My Wife teaches Math and Computer technology at the High School level and my son is going to college for you guessed it Computer science. My parents are 70+ and still heavy computer users just not computer hardware (thats where I come in). Guess that is why I did not see any disadvantage I build power PC's for fun. Guess I am in the 5% you talk about. The funny thing is I did not want to try Divx at all I was happy with CVD's its my son that talked me into trying it. Guess this old dog learned some new tricks.

I guess the other main point you made about VCD/SVCD/CVD being world wide makes alot of sence. In the USA I would not even know where to go to get anyhting legally in these formats (not that you can't I just not aware). If you want these formats you have to be computer capable and do it yourself.

I guess the biggest risk is that Divx does not stick around. What I need to do is learn how to go Divx to CVD and see what the result is. If it looks as good as the CVD I make it from then it looks like I may have my answer. Go Divx now and switch formats later if I have to. ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL.

BTW: You have been one of they key contributors to me being able to get anywhere with this stuff so a BIG thanks.!!! Really apprecuiate all the time you use to help me.

[mrtristan]

The only thing that I don't like about Divx, is that you can't enable aspect ratios... I think. There might be a setting to do so, but I've yet to find it.

Anyway, it seems like you already understand the differences between Divx and VCD/SVCD/CVD formats. My advice is to go with what works best for you.

[PlaiBoi]

@hardwork12
I wouldn't recommend going from DivX back to VCD. You will lose quality. DivX is a heavily compressed format, and when re-encoded to another compressed format, the results aren't going to be too great. As you said, television is a must for you, so I would just go with VCD, unless your computer is near your television and you have a video card w/ video-out then maybe use that. Test the quality of your video out, if it's good then maybe you should just make divx rips, but if it's not that great, then go with VCD. Also, keep in mind that if one day you decide to take that great movie you just ripped to divx to a friends house and he doesn't have a computer next to his tv. Then you have a problem. One of the reasons I choose VCD is what SatStorm called a "global thing". I can take my VCD to friends house and most likely their DVD players will play it fine.

[i-on-s]

Alright...you own a 53inch TV yet a 199$ dvd burner is "too much" and the media (when in bulk) for a dvd record is pretty null.

[banjazzer]

DivX is a heavily compressed format, and when re-encoded to another compressed format, the results aren't going to be too great.

Current DivX compression is so good that a correctly produced DivX will encode to an SVCD which is very hard to distinguish from an SVCD produced directly from the DVD - particularly when viewd on a TV.

[Bocic]

Go back to the original issue:
It will be a matter of time. 6-7 years ago MP3 was the revolution, and the monkey business. Now each DVD player (must ) have MP3 on it. When standards, and formats will settle down (a year or two I think) you will find more and more players with DivX, and/or ASF players built in.
just wait ....

[banjazzer]

I think DivX (5) will probably settle down as it is a proprietary product, with money to be made from it. As for XviD, it's hard enough keeping my PC up to pace to handle all the various changes.

[SatStorm]

Wow! My friend hardwork12 you are a lucky person! I am 29 and still remember my mother beat me 15 years ago, because I use to program a sinclair ZX Spectrum!
Today, my job is based on computers and I keep remind her that, all the time. I'm an evil son
She still believes that computers are evil. She even tends to say that I don't have a real job because I use them!
My father from the other hand, is more practical: "This monster feeds you, then OK"
I am lucky with my Girlfriend, she don't know much about computers, but has no problem with them (maybe that will change if I marrie her....)

Anyway, xvid and divx are very good formats, but they are target formats, like any mpeg format. So, convertion ain't lossless if you use them as source. There good formats for archiving material.
About the risc factor: I don't think that there is a risk using mpeg 4. There will always be computers and always the codex would be around if you want to use them. The only minus I see (except those I already posted), is that it will be less practical to use them in the future. Like those vinyl records I have....

[hardwork12]

Hey ALL some good thoughts here. Been doing alot of experimenting and if I go PC based with a network connection to the computer by the TV then If I use my power PC for all my "DVD back-UPs", PVR recordings and captures of videos I can then network over the TV stuff for viewing. The TV stuff looks real good when I capture using powerVCR II in the DVD quality (30meg/min) but who cares that 2hrs is 4 gig approx I am not going to save it after I watch it. If I do want to save it I can encode it to Divx or CVD and both will play on a PC based player.

Using my wireless mouse I can control the PC by the TV and viewing on the TV is good enough to navigate to play files with windows media player. Using TightVNC program to control the PC by the TV I can do all of the PC maintainance and set-up beyond just the playing from my Power PC. Still thinkling about this but it does work quite nice. PC by the TV but no keyboard or monitor. For real DVD I will just use my Real DVD player.

Still maybe I just need to find real inexpensive BULK source for DVD-r DVD-rw (TV stuff) and go that way.

having fun experimenting

[vhelp]

>> VCD/SVCD/CVD why not just Divx..What am I missing?
Ahh, yeah! a Standard !!
VCD/SVCD/CVD are all Standards, and have strict guidelines.
where a divX does not. And because of this, no DVD player can
properly play a divX encode w/out having hickups and whatnot.

Another thing. AFAIK, there are not divX players capable of including support for Menus and Chapters, etc., like a DVD can.
Ther are none to date. This would be a GREAT feature for a divX
standard though.
As a software player, Vidomi (if memory serves me) has min. support
in this area of divX, but again, no DVD player has this ability
for divX (yet)

The above is what you're missing, and is why people go the:
VCD/SVCD/CVD route instead, etc.

-vhelp

[hardwork12]

no DVD player has this ability
for divX (yet)

Not entirely true the KISS DP400 and KISS DP500 using the www.sigmadesigns.com chip is one just not redily available. This plays Divx 4.xx, 5.xx but not 3.11

But yes I agree the standard is a big issue right now but If I stay PC based I should be OK.

Definitely I agree I don't see Divx as a replacement for DVD's but for small file Archiving of video material it seems hard to beat.

One project I have been working on is 8mm home movies and although some of my problem is lack of understanding of CVD/SCVD tricks I was much more sucessful with Divx but had to go to 2000kbit/s to hamdle the camcorder issues so no saving in file size but better than any CVD/SCVD I did. Again though this could be only because of my encoding skill level of VCD/SVCD.

[vhelp]

hard,

I was refering to the Menu and Chapters on DVD players. I wasn't talking
about "software" players. there's no provisions that I know of, that has
Menu and Chapters for divX on those standalone divX players.

-vhelp

[kitty]

You can buy a DVD player for $50-150 and it works very well with a component entertainment system including chapters, navigation, simple games for kids etc. Nonstandard divx would have to be played on a PC near the TV system costing several hundred $ and not allowing any of the cool stuff the DVD format has.

And if I make a VCD/SVCD/DVD of my home movies I can mail them to relatives who play them on their $50 DVD players - they don't have to have a divx computer box. No codecs (3.11a/4/5), nada.

That's why this site is not DivXhelp.com

Divx has its place - just not ready for mass consumer use like DVD.

[SatStorm]

for simply recordings (just to watch once and delete after), I found the realtime grabb with virtualdub and xvid codec much better than grabbing with powerVCR II. With CBR 1300kb/s @ 352 X 576 and watch with zoom player from TV, I have almost indentical picture with the transmission. You have to use PCM audio unfortunatelly (so not having lipsync issues), but if you use a patch vdub version that can be solved.

Basicly, I prefer freeware or inexpensive solutions for my projects.
After years, I realise that the only programs I need for almost everything are: Virtualdub (freeware), dvd2avi (freeware), BBmpeg (freeware), TMPGenc plus (40$), vcdhelp's bitrate calculator (freeware), tooLAME (freeware), nero (free with my cd-recordable), ifoedit (freeware), smartripper (freeware) and some others for special occasions, mostly freeware. With those programs, you can do almost anything!

[hardwork12]

SatStorm

I will have to try your settings just adjusted for NTSC so I assume that is 352x480 (still get confused on that stuff). Never tried zoom player (using windows media player mostly) will have to try zoom player you must like it for a reason. I have done TV catures with virtualdub and like you said they are great. The only reason I tried the "expensive ware" the stuff like powerVCR II (demo right now) was because I can not find any freeware that allows for me to capture TV with a schedule capability that can also change the TV tuner channels so I have a "true" VCR capability.

I am going back and trying my hand at VCD/CVD/SVCD again. kitty made some great points.

Thanks

[PlaiBoi]

I haven't used it myself, but I think AVI_IO has the scheduling function.

but once again, id like to know. What are you doing exactly? Your using your computer to record shows, then watching them on your tv? Is this because your not home when the show airs?

[hardwork12]

Yes I am planning to just schedule the recording of shows on TV and watch them when I have a chance. For example I can set the system to record everytime Friends, The Simpsons, King of the hill, CSI, sports etc is on and watch them when I get a chance.

[vitualis]

What can I do with VCD/SVCD/CVD that I can’t do with Divx with regard to playback quality and features.

1. VCD/SVCD/CVD are standardised disc formats. As such, independent hardware manufacturers can all design and produce stand-alone units that will work as expected. Similarly, I can make a VCD be sure that it will play in just about every "VCD compatible" player.
2. You can make menus, chapters and other forms of user interaction on a VCD/SVCD -- http://www.michaeltam.com S/VCD, like DVD, can be much more than just "video on a disc". Furthermore, this is in a standardised way so that it plays properly on all compatible players. There is no standarised way or even an accepted way of making menus, chapters for DivX. There are even no standardised or generally accepted specifications or encoding parameters for DivX.
3. Hardware decoders for MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 are cheap and have been around for a long time. There is little in the field of hardware MPEG-4 decoders.
4. Finally, DivX lacks legitimacy as a video disc or video format. It still being called "DivX" will stiffle it's commercial acceptability. An MPEG-4 based codec may well become widely used on hardware players but I can bet that it won't be DivX

Regards.

[hardwork12]

vitualis

Some great answers here and as you say standardizaton and features are key ingredients that I was not thinking of. They are definitely a big advantage.

I just have to work with the CVD and VCD format more. The reason I looked at Divx in the first place was because I just can not seem to get my 8mm camcorder movies to be of high quality so I tried Divx. For DVD rips I get great quality video with VCD/SVCD and CVD but still frustrated with the 8mm quality. With Divx 512x384 with 1200 Kbit/sec and using HSV filter and smart deinterlace and Vdub for 2 pass encoding I got great results with Divx. Maybe the key is I need to go XVCD/XSVCD/XCVD and throw more bitrate at the 8mm camcorded encodings and learn some more filter tricks.

Thanks again.

[vitualis]

You can definitely get better video quality with DivX than S/VCD or CVD. However, the lack of standardisation means that you can't play it on anything or expect that anything you make NOW will play on anything in the FUTURE.

I don't know if anything is thinking of the same thing, but a project to create a standardised MPEG-4 video disc format would be a very worthwhile thing.

Regards.

[hardwork12]

Yes it would be great to see MPEG4 become a standard but Like you said it would be a project. I guess maybe why I am getting better 8mm camcorder encodings is because I will get better quality as you stated with Divx but the good points about standardization is important.

What I am going to do for now is work some more with the CVD format that seems the most sensible one for me as it is DVD compatible. It won't be long I hope before the price of DVD-r media drops so that option stays open.

Instead of buying a $200 DVD player so I can play XCVD I will bulild up a computer to use for my player. Computers are part of my hobby so I have almost enough spare parts to bulid a 900mhz computer so for about $120 I have a computer that can play all formats XCVD, DVD Divx 3/4/5.

I have my power PC that I do the captures and encoding on now hooked up to a TV next to the computer so I can test my encodings whether they are interlaced or not so what I see on the PC does not "fool" me. I will then link my power PC and the PC for the TV with my network and use that to load video onto the "player PC' so that way I can do My TV scheduled recording on my power PC with the TV capture card for later transfer to the "player PC" by the TV.

Well its a plan just not sure how well it will work out.

Thanks again for your input.

[SatStorm]

@Hardwork
My friend, you didn't say everything from the begin!
Your source is hi8, which is comparable with VHS. It is a home movie, right? Well, this is really difficult to convert to CD based media without go -x-! It is not the same as movies or TV shows!
Unfortunatelly, you need more bitrate than the maximum of both CVD/SVCD! An average of 3000 is necessary, and some times 3500Kb/s are needed!
Since you live to US and HDTV is a reality there (for Europe HDTV is a possibilty of the far - far future...), I have to say to think switch DVD from the first place!
For your Hi8 home movies, I suggest to use 352 X 480 with 1000min - 3500 average - 6000 maximum bitrate, multipass VBR. That way a virtual identical with the source result is guranted. You can low the average to 3000kb/s and the maximum to 5000 and still have excellent results, but beyond that I believe the results ain't good.
With movies and DVD backups, yes, you can play with the average bitrate . With CVD you can even set it low, about 1600 average (~60min@80CDR) and still have good picture. But with Home Movies, Cam corders, etc, that is imposible. Sorry!

About Virtualdub: There are modified versions of the proggy with built in timers, etc, also a very easy to use program which you can find in the tool section of this site, which allows you this specific thing.
You can program virtualdub with this proggy, like a VCR.

I advice you also to visit both VCDhelp's, Doom9's and other related with our hobby sites, their Tool sections and read what exist . You may suprise with what you can find there! Tons of programs, mostly freeware, for almost any problem!

[hardwork12]

SatStorm/ All

Guess that is why I was not having any luck. I tried what you said and it looks quite good when played with my PC s_video out to the TV. My DVD player can not play anything beyond VCD. So my options are go standard and use DVD for 8mm and CVD for DVD rips and get myself a DVD burner or use nonstandard Divx.

The bitrate issue was what made me try Divx in the first place I guess. Really not knowing anything about it beyond an article somewhere that talked about a sucess story of 8mm to CD using Divx. Also mine are not hi8 but the older 8mm standard. I was also a lousy camera man and I have too much "bouncing" the worst thing to deal with. Like CVD Divx also needed high bitrate. For movies like DVD rips 800 bits/sec in Divx looks outstanding but to get the 8mm to look very good I have to go to 2000kbits/s. At the 2000kbits/s for Divx the file size is the same as for a non "x" CVD so really no size advantage just the quality is as good as the method you recommended as follows

or your Hi8 home movies, I suggest to use 352 X 480 with 1000min - 3500 average - 6000 maximum bitrate, multipass VBR.

Now I am making progress. If I go CVD for DVD "back-ups", DVD quality recordings for TV, and DVD quality for my 8mm I think I have a reasonably cost effective solutuion. I can use DVD-RW to test my 8mm movies before I burn them to DVD-r (these would now be standard high quality format which Is what I want). Use the DVD-rw for playing the captured TV programs and play them on the TV. To save money on the media and stay standard I can go CVD's for my high quality sources like DVD rips and use inexpensive media.

Now I need to look for a decent DVD recorder at a reasonable price. Will also need a new DVD standalone so I can play the DVD-r, DVD-rw and CVD's. I tried the philips DVD724 but had some problems with it so My top candidate right now is the Sony DVPNS715P played anything I could throw at it in the store and very fast at disk load-up. Downside it is $200 USD.

Have A great Holiday.. Guess I know what My holiday gifts to myself will be really appreciate the help and sorry I did not fully state the problem