Is it worth it recapturing videos?

[Riker0007]

So, I captured all my family vhs tapes via a standard Panasonic vcr that passes into my DVDO HD+ (has a full frame TBC) video processor and then into a black magic intensity 4k. Most are meh, but they are very old. Would it be worth recapturing the tapes with a s-vhs player (not the uber expensive ones) maybe a JVC HR-S3800U or woudl a Panasonic DVD/VCR Combo Recorder DMR-ES35V be better? Or just go with what I have?

Thanks in advance.

[Sharc]

Only you can tell what is ultimately worth for you. Depends on the quality of the source as well.
If you like to get some comments or suggestions from other users upload a sample (few seconds with motion) of your result.

[Riker0007]

Thanks for the info. I'm just curious if there would be a quality difference? And if so, which one is better to go with. The combo recorder or the S-VHS deck? I don't mind giving it a go, but would only want to buy one unit. I'll figure out the posting of some clips when I get home from work.
Thanks again.

[aramkolt]

If you'll send me one of your tapes that you've already converted along with the file that you were able to make, I could capture a section with something similar to what you're describing and you can then decide if it is worth obtaining that same hardware yourself and recapturing. Would do it for basically just the cost of return shipping. I've got an EZ48V, JVC 4800/ES10 and I could also compare that to what the "super expensive ones" are able to do like the 9600U/AG1980. I tend to capture into ProRes since it is more Mac Friendly, but you should still be able to get an idea of what the differences are in terms of the players/line TBCs/S-Video involved. PM me if interested.

[Riker0007]

Thanks for the offer. Very kind and will consider. I'm trying to decide now if a jvc hr-s7800u would show a better image? Was hoping someone has some input on this deck. I've had no issues with dropped frames on my captures, but I really don't know if it's worth it for maybe 50 tapes vs. just trying to clean up with software like Neat video or similar.

[Sharc]

.... I'm trying to decide now if a jvc hr-s7800u would show a better image? ...

What is a "better" image in your understanding? Better is what you like more (assuming you have already avoided basic capturing and setup/workflow flaws!). Be prepared that the JVC will usually deliver a slightly softer/less detailed picture but with less noise (means "cleaner", requiring less or no denoising in post processing) compared to the Panasonic. And there are other criteria what makes one "personally look better" than the other. There are plenty of comparisons and opinions in this forum and over at digitalfaq.com.
Also, if your panny is Composite only your capture quality will profit from a S-Video model, avoiding dotcrawl and rainbow artefacts, and so on.....
A decent VCR is a prerequisite for a decent capture, but it can't do wonders on crappy sources/tapes.

[rgr]

My test (VHS tape, not SVHS) showed that the Panasonic*+composite image was little better than the JVC+SVideo.

* - excluding the slight white blows caused by the Panasonic

[Sharc]

My test (VHS tape, not SVHS) showed that the Panasonic*+composite image was little better than the JVC+SVideo.

* - excluding the slight white blows caused by the Panasonic

Simply put from my experience with homemade VHS tapes: If you hate noise you like JVCs for their clean picture. If you like details and accept more noise you like Panasonics.
If composite: a good Y/C separating filter (3D comb filter for example) is key for any brand.

[rgr]

If composite: a good Y/C separating filter (3D comb filter for example) is key for any brand.

Yes, of course. I use a DVD recorder.

And another downside to the Panasonic: its heads get dirty easily.

[Riker0007]

I decided to just get a panasonic hr-s7800u and here is what I've found so far. When I run it directly into the black magic intensity pro 4k via svideo it shows some drop frames. When I run it into the dvdo HD+ (outputs via hdmi with no upscaling) it doesn't but it will only output 480p and I set everything to zero as far as contrast, brightness etc. I thought it's best to capture without any changes and do all the processing in the computer. It appears to be slightly video processed after passing it through the DVDO when compared going directly to intensity, maybe over constrasty/white seemed washed out. I could drop the contrast via dvdo, but I'm not sure that is what to do. Not sure about a potentiometer on the chroma? I'm running test to see which looks better. Is there a better capture device? Not sure where to go from here. I will do some captures and upload.

[aramkolt]

The DVDO isn't really a classic TBC in the way that I think you're trying to use it. A ideal frame TBC won't make the picture look significantly different visually on passthrough. I have an iScanHD+ and I would agree that the image looks quite "processed" going through it in what I can only describe as a reduction of bit depth or artificial increase in chroma saturation, so nearby values seem to get rounded to the same value leading to pixely or plastic-y looking result.

If you're using Windows, you have lots of options for capture devices other than the intensity 4K, but if you do continue to use it, you'll need a better frame TBC as it will drop frames very easily if timing isn't as strict as some of the more recommended/expensive TBCs.

I don't know that I've actually seen a comparison showing how likely it is to drop when used with a DVD recorder for passthrough though.

If I was you and wanted to do it on a budget using mostly things you already have, the 7800U with line TBC on plus an IOdata GV-USB2 or a Hauppage Live2 used with AmarecTV will probably work quite well with few if any dropped frames assuming the tape itself is in decent shape. Reason I say Amarec is because some others have done testing that it tends to drop fewer frames than virtualdub or at least requires less messing with the settings to achieve that result. My guess is it isn't a coincidence that you're using Blackmagic products though, you might be trying to avoid using Amerec/Virtualdub because the Blackmagic interface is simpler?

There's really infinite combinations of things you could use, but the above will probably give you better results than most of them at the least additional cost. I personally like 10 bit ProRes captures via SDI and the AJA KiPro (so no computer required for the capture), but then you need a TBC that outputs SDI or Component Video. ProRes is more Mac friendly also, but doesn't sound like that's a factor here.

[Riker0007]

The DVDO isn't really a classic TBC in the way that I think you're trying to use it. A ideal frame TBC won't make the picture look significantly different visually on passthrough. I have an iScanHD+ and I would agree that the image looks quite "processed" going through it in what I can only describe as a reduction of bit depth or artificial increase in chroma saturation, so nearby values seem to get rounded to the same value leading to pixely or plastic-y looking result.

If you're using Windows, you have lots of options for capture devices other than the intensity 4K, but if you do continue to use it, you'll need a better frame TBC as it will drop frames very easily if timing isn't as strict as some of the more recommended/expensive TBCs.

I don't know that I've actually seen a comparison showing how likely it is to drop when used with a DVD recorder for passthrough though.

If I was you and wanted to do it on a budget using mostly things you already have, the 7800U with line TBC on plus an IOdata GV-USB2 or a Hauppage Live2 used with AmarecTV will probably work quite well with few if any dropped frames assuming the tape itself is in decent shape. Reason I say Amarec is because some others have done testing that it tends to drop fewer frames than virtualdub or at least requires less messing with the settings to achieve that result. My guess is it isn't a coincidence that you're using Blackmagic products though, you might be trying to avoid using Amerec/Virtualdub because the Blackmagic interface is simpler?

There's really infinite combinations of things you could use, but the above will probably give you better results than most of them at the least additional cost. I personally like 10 bit ProRes captures via SDI and the AJA KiPro (so no computer required for the capture), but then you need a TBC that outputs SDI or Component Video. ProRes is more Mac friendly also, but doesn't sound like that's a factor here.

Thanks for your input. Which TBC would you suggest? And do you know if the pinnacle 710 is just as good or better than the io data? I got the black magic years ago for 8mm film capture with a telecine unit and the dvdo was from my old crt projector back in the day and remembered it stated it had a Full frame tbc. What do you think of using a VIDEONICS MX 1 ?
Thanks again.

[Sharc]

I decided to just get a panasonic hr-s7800u ....

You probably mean a JVC HR-S7800U, right?

[aramkolt]

The Pinacle card will probably work without dropping frames just as well as the IoData as long as the VCR you are using has a line TBC which does reduce timing errors between frames as well, but not quite to the same degree as a dedicated Frame TBC. Every capture card will have a certain threshold of timing error that it'll tolerate before dropping a frame, but there's really been no test that shows what that is for each capture card because the test itself would be hard to design as you can't really generate variable timing issues reliably without quite a bit of technical expertise, but I imagine you could do it with something like the HackRF.

The order of steps would be getting your capture card first and see if you do drop significant frames at all before then deciding to invest in a frame TBC. Amarec will report dropped frames, and on longer captures, you can verify if you're having audio sync issues or not which would also be an indicator of significant dropped frames that aren't being appropriately compensated for by Amarec or Virtualdub etc.

I haven't seen a lot of testing done on the MX-1 outside of 12voltvids demo of his, but he seemed to like it.

[Riker0007]

I decided to just get a panasonic hr-s7800u ....

You probably mean a JVC HR-S7800U, right?

Yep. My bad. My other unit is a regular vcr and panasonic

[Sharc]

I decided to just get a panasonic hr-s7800u ....

You probably mean a JVC HR-S7800U, right?

Yep. My bad. My other unit is a regular vcr and panasonic

OK. So now - returning to your original question - I suggest it's time to compare details, levels, sharpness and noise of a capture between your "regular" Composite Panasonic and S-Video JVC. What do you see? Which one do you prefer and why? Is it worth to recapture? Post your results (video snippets of your captures).

[Riker0007]

The 7800 with a-video out is a lot better than the original Panasonic with composite out; it has very mild static like look on the picture. I’m just not sure if I should get a dmr-es15 and use as pass through ? Is it needed with the 7800? Curious if the component out of the es15 to the component input on the dvdo and then analog out to the analog in on the black magic would eliminate drop frames; not be a picky as the hdmi? I did order a io data capture device to test. I’ll post some photos clips when I fire it all up this morning. Thanks!

[The_Doman]

The 7800 with a-video out is a lot better than the original Panasonic with composite out; it has very mild static like look on the picture. I’m just not sure if I should get a dmr-es15 and use as pass through ? Is it needed with the 7800? Curious if the component out of the es15 to the component input on the dvdo and then analog out to the analog in on the black magic would eliminate drop frames; not be a picky as the hdmi? I did order a io data capture device to test. I’ll post some photos clips when I fire it all up this morning. Thanks!

If you can still pick up a ES-10/15 cheaply (if that matters) why not?
Even if only for curiosity to see the results.
I always use my ES-10's and other Panasonics to convert/stabilize my regular VCR's signal to S-Video.

See also:

Is there anything better than a Dazzle DVC 103 in 2025?

I also use a Sony DV-Camcorder (reliable) and Panasonic DVD recorders as stabilizing/S-Video conversion function for capturing.

I did get hold of a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V to use for direct VHS to DVD transfer but it worked for 5 mins and then the DVD recorder failed which I have now learnt is a quite common problem with them.

You could try using the DMR-EZ48V as a pass-trough to possible stabilize the video and also use it to convert the composite VCR video to S-Video.
Using S-Video with (cheaper) capture devices can improve the results significantly.
I have no experience with the DMR-EZ48V or similar models myself but have a look/search:
Google: DMR-EZ48V Passthrough

I've found that the quality of a recording done with my VCR connected to a DVD recorder which outputs S Video is higher quality than if you use composite

Well yes exactly that is what i am also always doing when recording from composite.
You would expect the DVD recorder doing a better job separating/filtering the Y/C signals instead of most (simpler/cheaper?) capture devices.
Also of course combined with the stabilization and optional noise reduction of the recorder it can improve composite recording significantly.
I have several S-VHS/TBC decks too but often prefer capturing with a regular VHS through the Panasonic DVD recorder.

[Sharc]

The 7800 with a-video out is a lot better than the original Panasonic with composite out; it has very mild static like look on the picture. I’m just not sure if I should get a dmr-es15 and use as pass through ? Is it needed with the 7800?

There is no rule or absolute truth, other than "it depends...". Basically if your tape and VCR (wear!) are in good condition it is normally better to avoid extra gear which add its own quirks. However, you may find that for more problematic tapes an external ES-10 or ES-15 may give more stable results or less glitches. In that case it is normally recommended to disable the internal TBC of the VCR, as 2 "TBCs" in a row may do more harm than good. If you get more than very few drops or inserts per hour (maybe 1 or 2) you should revisit your setup anyway.
Search the forum. Plenty of posts about the subject.

[lordsmurf]

should get a dmr-es15 and use as pass through ? Is it needed with the 7800?

No. It duplicates line TBC, no frame TBC exists in a JVC>ES15 workflow. The first TBC in a chain "wins", so only one can be used. You still have no frame TBC. The ES15 contains a strong+crippled line TBC, and a non-TBC frame sync (which isn't the same).

This topic also crossposted: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/15269-vhs-worth-capture.html
More/different advice there.

[Riker0007]

Here are some clips: One is with the 7800 into the dvdo then black magic via hdmi. The other is with the 7800 into the iodata (Maybe the pinnacle 710 would be better but the iodata was from amazon and had free returns, but appears to be in Japanese) I apologize as to be honest, most of this stuff is beyond me and I'm trying to educate myself so I appreciate all those that her giving me help and advice.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/139455/DVDO.avi

https://files.videohelp.com/u/139455/iodata.avi

[Sharc]

No. It duplicates line TBC, no frame TBC exists in a JVC>ES15 workflow. The first TBC in a chain "wins", so only one can be used. You still have no frame TBC. The ES15 contains a strong+crippled line TBC, and a non-TBC frame sync (which isn't the same).

That's why I said that the "TBC" of the VCR should be switched off when the OP prefers the external "strong(er)+crippled" line TBC. The behaviour of the JVC VCR internal "TBC" and the ES-10/15 line TBC are different. Choose the one which delivers better results for a particular case.

[Riker0007]

No. It duplicates line TBC, no frame TBC exists in a JVC>ES15 workflow. The first TBC in a chain "wins", so only one can be used. You still have no frame TBC. The ES15 contains a strong+crippled line TBC, and a non-TBC frame sync (which isn't the same).

That's why I said that the "TBC" of the VCR should be switched off when the OP prefers the external "strong(er)+crippled" line TBC. The behaviour of the JVC VCR internal "TBC" and the ES-10/15 line TBC are different. Choose the one which delivers better results for a particular case.

Thanks. I just ran a VHC tape and with the TBC on on the JVC it cause jitters and bends at the top. With it off, doesn't do it. I even tried it bypassing the dvdo and straight into the black magic and same thing. I guess try what makes it the best. I might just get one like you said to try.

[Sharc]

Here are some clips: One is with the 7800 into the dvdo then black magic via hdmi. The other is with the 7800 into the iodata (Maybe the pinnacle 710 would be better but the iodata was from amazon and had free returns, but appears to be in Japanese) I apologize as to be honest, most of this stuff is beyond me and I'm trying to educate myself so I appreciate all those that her giving me help and advice.

https://files.videohelp.com/u/139455/DVDO.avi

https://files.videohelp.com/u/139455/iodata.avi

First impression only:
- The DVDO is poorly deinterlaced and has wrong aspect ratio. Forget it.
- The iodata is basically better but the capture SW has probably been set with the wrong framerate (AmarecTV setting issue?)
You can however restore (fix) the interlaced format in Avisynth like

AVISource("iodata.avi")
assumeBFF()
separatefields()
selectevery(4,0,1)
weave()

Still, the second half of the video seems to have some ugly field glitches.

[Alwyn]

iodata was from amazon and had free returns, but appears to be in Japanese

IOData GV-USB2 info on my website here; disclaimer, I am on Win 11 but the drivers are the same for XP, according to the IOData website.

Agree with Sharc, that DVDO video is BAD. Even though it appears to be interlaced, trying to deinterlace it creates a mess:


[Attachment 88251 - Click to enlarge]

For the IOData/GV-USB2 video, the field motion reverses on every 4th field. That is not normal for a GV-USB2 capture.

If you're capturing with AmaRecTV, reset the frame rate for capture to 29.97 as I describe.

[Alwyn]

And do you know if the pinnacle 710 is just as good or better than the io data?

Have a look at this, which I have just put up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWD6o0FaeW4