PAL to NTSC

[epj16706]

Hope this is the correct forum. This is basically my first post to this site, although I've been using the site for a long time. Using the great instructions and tips from this site I've been pretty successful making first DVD backups and now Blu-ray discs. Many thanks to all.

I've finally found a subject that I feel is worth submitting a post on. I have a DVD from England (PAL) that I could play on my computer but not any of the Blu-ray players I have. From the searches that I did on this site, it seemed that I was faced with either buying a new player for the disc (out of the question) or to follow some convoluted instructions that most of you feel are not worth the trouble. Well, I tried following the complicated and confusing instructions I found, and the end result was a mess. After several hours all I had was a worthless disc (the first coaster I've made in a very long time). There was no sound at all and only a black screen. I was about to give up, but then I thought of something to try.

I've been using AVStoDVD for quite a while to convert video files I've downloaded off the net, and I thought maybe I could use it to convert my disc. Many of the files I download are from England and are PAL, so it made sense to me to try AVStoDVD. I had ripped the disc to my computer with DVD Decrypter and I then loaded the VOB files into MPEG Video Wizard. Using MPEG Video Wizard I converted the files to a MPEG file. I then loaded the MPEG file into AVStoDVD and just a couple of clicks later, I had an NTSC DVD of my movie. The whole process took well under an hour. My main concern was that the audio would be screwed up but the sound was properly synchronized throughout the movie.

There might be faster and better ways of converting the ripped VOB files to a format that I could then use in AVStoDVD than by using MPEG Video Wizard, but it was a program that I had used before and that I already had. In any event, it was a relatively easy task, and I thought it might be worth mentioning on this forum.

Again, I would like to thank everyone who contributes to this site. It has made what would otherwise seem like an impossible task relatively easy.

Rick Johnson

[hech54]

DVDDecrypter is OLD and outdated(for decrypting). How "new" is this disc/DVD?

[DB83]

Not being from your side of the pond I have no need to convert from PAL to NTSC or vive-versa.

The problem with conversion, if I read the forum correctly, is not the movie content but the menus. So do you still have these intact ?

[Seeker47]

I think AVStoDVD may be able to convert in either direction. For certain sources, it often asks me during the setup phase whether I want to render the result as PAL or NTSC -- recommending the former to me if the source has a framerate suspiciously near that of PAL. I've answered either way, depending on various things. My Oppo players handle PAL just fine, so that is not really an issue. With downloaded video files, either of the two encoders used by AVStoDVD will show a lower bitrate (sometimes much lower) for the PAL choice, and -- rightly or wrongly -- that tends to throw me, leading to a choice in favor of NTSC. I don't want to deteriorate the PQ appreciably . . . .

But, your example is based on an existing DVD. And AVStoDVD has ways of directly "re-using" existing DVD resources. A rip may be required (I'm not even sure about that), but I seem to recall that your conversion step with the Womble app is not. I'm pretty sure that there is a menu selection about this use of existing DVD material in the AVStoDVD project setup menus. I have notes about this saved somewhere, but I believe the developer, _MrC_, has given step-by-step instructions about this (to me, and probably to others) in the main support thread for the program, here on VH. Yeah, I know that thread is like 40 pages long, at this point. I can try to get you a more specific link for this.

In response to DB83, I think the menus do survive this process, but, absent any recent enough trials for me to recall this, I'm not completely sure.

[epj16706]

DVDDecrypter is OLD and outdated(for decrypting). How "new" is this disc/DVD?

What difference does it make how OLD Dvd Decrypter is? It works! The only point I was trying to make when I said I had ripped the DVD with DVD Decrypter is that the DVD had been ripped and was already on my hard drive. I use DVD Decrypter most of the time and it works on the vast majority of commercial DVDs including very recent releases. And I never said anything about the disc being new!

And in response to DB83: I did not retain the menus. In fact there were no menus, only the copywrite restrictions which I wanted to remove anyway. And from everything I have read about converting between PAL and NTSC the bigger problem is synchronizing the audio. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

[hech54]

DVDDecrypter is OLD and outdated(for decrypting). How "new" is this disc/DVD?

What difference does it make how OLD Dvd Decrypter is? It works! The only point I was trying to make when I said I had ripped the DVD with DVD Decrypter is that the DVD had been ripped and was already on my hard drive. I use DVD Decrypter most of the time and it works on the vast majority of commercial DVDs including very recent releases. And I never said anything about the disc being new!

Goodbye.

[manono]

In response to DB83, I think the menus do survive this process.

No, you can only make the basic menus that AVS2DVD allows.

And from everything I have read about converting between PAL and NTSC the bigger problem is synchronizing the audio. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

No, audio is no problem at all. You either encode the video at the original framerate (25fps) and apply a pulldown to bring it up to the required NTSC output framerate thus keeping it at the same length, meaning you can use the original audio unchanged, or you slow it to film speed and slow the audio as well. But doing that to the audio (slowing it from PAL speed to film speed) is easy. I would guess AVS2DVD uses the simpler first method I outlined.

[epj16706]

Then I misunderstood as to what the problems with conversions actually were.

The reason I started this thread was just that I had spent a lot of time following the instructions from this link: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/241000-How-to-convert-a-PAL-DVD-to-a-NTSC-DVD-using...GEnc-Plus-2-5x
and it ended up being a disaster for me. Obviously I did something wrong and therefore the problem lies with me not being able to follow the directions correctly, but unless it is idiot proof, it doesn't work so well for me. I figured out that doing it the way I said in my initial post ended up with what I considered to be a good quality duplicate of the disc with much less trouble.

[DB83]

No menu on a commercial dvd. I find that pretty hard to believe. What about scene selection if nothing else ?

[epj16706]

No menu on a commercial dvd. I find that pretty hard to believe. What about scene selection if nothing else ?

I guess I'm just too thin skinned for this. Here is a link for the DVD: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Uphill-All-The-Way-DVD/dp/B000AOX7I8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=13...2859133&sr=8-1 I admit it is a cheap DVD, but it does not have any menus. Nor any scene selection. All it has is the copy write warning crap and the movie itself.

I'm a big Roy Clark fan, and I bought the DVD off Ebay quite some time ago from a seller in England. I assure you that it is a commercial release.

[jman98]

You can buy this DVD in the USA now as a legit region 1 release.
http://www.amazon.com/Uphill-All-Way-Roy-Clark/dp/B00BHO0V8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=13...ll+the+way+dvd

For $14.98 it might be your best and cheapest option rather than worry about all the PAL issues.

[TubeBar]

DVD Decryptor and age of the DVD is completely irrelevant for PAL to NTSC. That only pertains to non-standard copy protections and has to do with DVD to HDD ripping. Personally I use anyDVD to remove everything and then DVD Decryptor for specific ripping, IMO it is the best app...too bad Rovi (Macrovision) shut it down thinking it would somehow save their business as LK did a great job.

Sadly I also live in the NTSC world and most of our players/TVs refuse to support PAL. It's really not to costly to buy a BD or DVD player that outputs PAL on Amazon, but it is expensive to buy a TV that supports PAL. My TV supports 480/720 and 1080 and refuses to display PAL which is stupid as it is higher quality then NTSC.

I have converted many PAL to NTSC and there is a slew of issues to keep in mind when doing so. There is NO easy way to effectively do it. NeroVision does an OK job though results in slightly "choppy" video during playback (that is the quick 25fps to 29.97 method via pulldown creating extra frames).

For me the best method was a complicated one using VirtualDub but it works well, but there is some slight quality loss due to re-encoding but honestly no method can prevent lossy to lossy quality loss to some degree, unless you do use a lossless codec (80GB for an SD though and be non DVD/BD).

This is the guide I use and have for many DVDs: http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video/convert-pal-ntsc.htm

[Seeker47]

In response to DB83, I think the menus do survive this process.

No, you can only make the basic menus that AVS2DVD allows.

And from everything I have read about converting between PAL and NTSC the bigger problem is synchronizing the audio. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

No, audio is no problem at all. You either encode the video at the original framerate (25fps) and apply a pulldown to bring it up to the required NTSC output framerate thus keeping it at the same length, meaning you can use the original audio unchanged, or you slow it to film speed and slow the audio as well. But doing that to the audio (slowing it from PAL speed to film speed) is easy. I would guess AVS2DVD uses the simpler first method I outlined.

The timing of subtitles -- if any -- could be a likely casualty, though. I'm pretty sure I've run afoul of that, at times. Sometimes you can find appropriate subs at either the PAL or NTSC framerates . . . .

No tools out there for converting menus . . . ?

[epj16706]

You can buy this DVD in the USA now as a legit region 1 release.
http://www.amazon.com/Uphill-All-Way-Roy-Clark/dp/B00BHO0V8Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=13...ll+the+way+dvd

For $14.98 it might be your best and cheapest option rather than worry about all the PAL issues.

Yes, you are right...it would be easier and cheaper to buy the NTSC version here in the US. Part of my problem, however, was that I had already bought the DVD a couple of years ago. At that time it was not available here in the US. The second thing was that it became a bit of a challenge to convert the disc so that I could view it on the equipment I already have. I thought this forum was to help people learn how to do various things to back up videos not to just tell them that it would be easier and cheaper to just flush whatever they have down the toilet and go to some store and buy a new version?

[smrpix]

Presumably people come here because they like to watch movies and the skills they aquire are a means to an end. If you prefer flushing your time down the toilet to flushing your money -- that is certainly your prerogative.

You can do a search on these forums for converting ntsc to pal menus (or vice versa.) There's lots of good reading.

[manono]

There is NO easy way to effectively do it.

As long as you don't care about getting back the original menus, it's dead simple if you know even a little bit of AviSynth.

MPEG2Source("Movie.d2v")
LanczosResize(Width,480)

And that's it. Send it to your MPEG encoder of choice to encode at 25fps and then use DGPulldown to apply 25->29.97fps pulldown. Or let Avs2DVD do it the same way. Me, I prefer to slow the video and audio to film speed and that guide to which you linked for doing it that way is way out of date as well as being unnecessarily complex.

NeroVision does an OK job though results in slightly "choppy" video during playback (that is the quick 25fps to 29.97 method via pulldown creating extra frames).

Nerovision will create duplicate frames. That has nothing at all to do with pulldown.

[manono]

The timing of subtitles -- if any -- could be a likely casualty, though.

If you keep the film the same length, you can use the same subs (or resize them for the lower NTSC resolution). If you slow the video to film speed there are several programs that can redo the subtitle timing automatically. I use SubtitleCreator for this sometimes.

Chapter points have to be converted though. That takes some time.

No tools out there for converting menus . . . ?

Well, yes and no. There was once a commercial program that did it, but it's no longer around, and it required Scenarist. Menu conversion is pretty much manual, if you must have the 'originals'.

[TubeBar]

As long as you don't care about getting back the original menus, it's dead simple if you know even a little bit of AviSynth.

It depends on the source and how acurate you want it. If it is film I convert it back to 24fps so the time is correct, but if it was PAL Video Tape then the time is correct and converting it to 24fps would slow it down.

. Send it to your MPEG encoder of choice to encode at 25fps and then use DGPulldown to apply 25->29.97fps pulldown. Or let Avs2DVD do it the same way. Me, I prefer to slow the video and audio to film speed and that guide to which you linked for doing it that way is way out of date as well as being unnecessarily complex.

Yes that works for film when the timing is wrong (PAL 25fps speed up) but it does not work for PAL Video tape source where it has not been sped up, in that case I leave it at 25fps. Then you have to take in the pitch effect, is it wrong or right? As I said it just has to do with how accurate you want the conversion to be, if you don't care then it is simple.

I have used DGPulldown and did not like the results, so that guide works for me even if it is out dated and it is more time consuming.

[manono]

If it is film I convert it back to 24fps so the time is correct, but if it was PAL Video Tape then the time is correct and converting it to 24fps would slow it down.

Yeah, sure, but since that guide to which you referred mentions setting the framerate to 23.976fps, I figured you were speaking of movies. Native 25fps stuff, especially interlaced 25fps stuff, is a whole other can of worms.

Then you have to take in the pitch effect, is it wrong or right?

I haven't yet come across a film on PAL DVD (or one converted to NTSC by field-blending) where the pitch wasn't off. In the process of slowing the audio I also do the pitch correction. Don't get me wrong - I expect there are some 25fps films on PAL DVD which were already pitch corrected. I just haven't seen any.

I have used DGPulldown and did not like the results

3:2 pulldown is fine with you but 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown isn't? Like I said, I slow PAL 25fps to film speed, but as NTSC people we've been watching pulleddown movies all our lives we don't even notice it. I don't anyway.

...if you don't care then it is simple.

I do care, and if it's a movie it is simple.

[TubeBar]

Yeah, sure, but since that guide to which you referred mentions setting the framerate to 23.976fps, I figured you were speaking of movies. Native 25fps stuff, especially interlaced 25fps stuff, is a whole other can of worms.

I should mention I don't follow that guide strictly. I don't use 23.97 for movies as it is wrong, I use 24fps and then encode to 29.97 and never use the pull down. This results is correct time and has given me the best results. I probably should have mention that.

I haven't yet come across a film on PAL DVD (or one converted to NTSC by field-blending) where the pitch wasn't off. In the process of slowing the audio I also do the pitch correction. Don't get me wrong - I expect there are some 25fps films on PAL DVD which were already pitch corrected. I just haven't seen any.

I have compared NTSC and PAL versions for pitch and sometimes PAL pitch is wrong and other times it has been fixed. Unless you compare IMO you won't know as pitch isn't really that different. Most newer PAL films do fix the pitch.

3:2 pulldown is fine with you but 3:2:3:2:2 pulldown isn't? Like I said, I slow PAL 25fps to film speed, but as NTSC people we've been watching pulleddown movies all our lives we don't even notice it. I don't anyway.

I don't use the pulldown, as I said what works for me (for movies) is 25fps -> 24fps -> encode to DVD as 29.97. Again I modified that guide somewhat, the filters he suggested do help to preserver some of quality loss.

I have never tried AVIsynth perhaps your method is better I can't say, nor do I claim to be an "expert" with this (I'm not) but mine worked fine. You can see one Video of mine on YouTube which is NTSC but it was PAL. the PAL film print was better quality but the audio was Italian, so I used the NTSC English audio and converted the video to NTSC DVD and it is perfect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR5log6b9-0

[manono]

I should mention I don't follow that guide strictly. I don't use 23.97 for movies as it is wrong, I use 24fps and then encode to 29.97 and never use the pull down.

So, you're particular about .004 of a second, a difference no one will ever notice or hear, yet you purposely make your movies stutter by repeating a frame in every 5?

I probably should have mention that.

It might have been a good idea as it removes you completely from having anything worthwhile to say on this subject. That Youtube video, which you claim to be perfect, repeats a frame after every fourth frame. Anime plays jerky anyway and there is sometimes some real 29.97fps stuff, but for live action movies that's an absurd way to encode. And earlier you complained about NeroVision doing the same thing?

I don't use the pulldown, as I said what works for me (for movies) is 25fps -> 24fps -> encode to DVD as 29.97.

Gimme a break.

Again I modified that guide somewhat, the filters he suggested do help to preserver some of quality loss.

Like blend deinterlacing everything, progressive or not?

Feel free to have the last word.