Can i mux a 25fps ac3 soundtrack to a 29.97fps TS file?

[Tsunamijhoe]

Can anyone tell me if it is at all possible to get a good result muxing a 25fps ac3 track to a 29.97 ts file?

There is a discrepancy in runtime video is a ts with a 29.97fps and a runtime of 1h.32m.49s and the ac3 track is ripped from a pal dvd and has a runtime of 1h.29m.01s.

If possible,how exactly would i go about it?

Any help is appreciated

[manono]

Can anyone tell me if it is at all possible to get a good result muxing a 25fps ac3 track to a 29.97 ts file?

I can tell you it's not possible - not directly anyway.

If possible,how exactly would i go about it?

I do it by first slowing the audio from the PAL source to that of the NTSC source, while at the same time converting it to WAV audio. I use the 25.000->23.976fps preset in BeSweet, although there are other ways. Then I take that WAV audio (perhaps after doing some work on it in Audacity) and convert it back to AC3. I use Soft Encode, although others might use Aften and a GUI, or eac3to with a GUI. In fact, I believe eac3to can do it all in one step, slowing it from PAL to NTSC, or from 25fps to 23.976fps, using the -slowdown switch.

After that mux it in. There may possibly be a constant delay, but that's easily fixed.

[Tsunamijhoe]

Well, video is 29.97 fps according to mediainfo,so that means that audio which is 25fps has to be sped up,not slowed down. Or video has to be converted to 23,976 first? Which is why i am wondering if this is at all possible. If audio is sped up that much,it will change the pitch right? chipmunk much

[jagabo]

Well, video is 29.97 fps according to mediainfo,so that means that audio which is 25fps has to be sped up,not slowed down.

No. Film is shot at 24 fps. For NTSC broadcast it is slowed down to 23.976 fps and frames are repeated to make 29.97 fps. For PAL broadcast the film is sped up to 25 fps. So your PAL audio needs be slowed down by a ratio of 25 fps to 23.976 fps, not sped up.

If audio is sped up that much,it will change the pitch right? chipmunk much

It's possible to speed up or slow down the audio without changing pitch. But with PAL video the audio is usually raised by about a semitone.

If you're not using a device which requires 29.97 fps, and you're using a container that supports it, try changing the frame rate of the video (in the container header) rather than the length of the audio. That's much faster and easier. MkvMerge, for example, lets you specify a frame rate for the video. A warning though, not all players will respect the frame rate in the header.

A bigger problem is the fact that PAL and NTSC releases are often different cuts of the movie. So just changing the audio length or frame rate won't make the two match.

[Tsunamijhoe]

Well, video is 29.97 fps according to mediainfo,so that means that audio which is 25fps has to be sped up,not slowed down.

No. Film is shot at 24 fps. For NTSC broadcast it is slowed down to 23.976 fps and frames are repeated to make 29.97 fps. For PAL broadcast the film is sped up to 25 fps. So your PAL audio needs be slowed down by a ratio of 25 fps to 23.976 fps, not sped up.

If audio is sped up that much,it will change the pitch right? chipmunk much

It's possible to speed up or slow down the audio without changing pitch. But with PAL video the audio is usually raised by about a semitone.

If you're not using a device which requires 29.97 fps, and you're using a container that supports it, try changing the frame rate of the video (in the container header) rather than the length of the audio. That's much faster and easier. MkvMerge, for example, lets you specify a frame rate for the video. A warning though, not all players will respect the frame rate in the header.

A bigger problem is the fact that PAL and NTSC releases are often different cuts of the movie. So just changing the audio length or frame rate won't make the two match.

OK, what i have is a german hdtv broadcast which i need to put english audio on from the scandinavian dvd (pal),so technically they should both be pal,but they arent it seems.

I tried muxing them in mkvmerge and changing the framerate,but it says there is an error in the first gop and it needs to be repaired,how i do not know,as video plays fine on my pch-a210. result is extremely jerky picture

[Gavino]

There is a discrepancy in runtime video is a ts with a 29.97fps and a runtime of 1h.32m.49s and the ac3 track is ripped from a pal dvd and has a runtime of 1h.29m.01s.

Well, video is 29.97 fps according to mediainfo,so that means that audio which is 25fps has to be sped up,not slowed down.

Audio doesn't have a frame rate.
It's obvious that if the audio is 1h29m and the video is 1h32m, the audio needs to be slowed down to make it last longer.

[Tsunamijhoe]

There is a discrepancy in runtime video is a ts with a 29.97fps and a runtime of 1h.32m.49s and the ac3 track is ripped from a pal dvd and has a runtime of 1h.29m.01s.

Well, video is 29.97 fps according to mediainfo,so that means that audio which is 25fps has to be sped up,not slowed down.

Audio doesn't have a frame rate.
It's obvious that if the audio is 1h29m and the video is 1h32m, the audio needs to be slowed down to make it last longer.

How?

[poisondeathray]

There is a discrepancy in runtime video is a ts with a 29.97fps and a runtime of 1h.32m.49s and the ac3 track is ripped from a pal dvd and has a runtime of 1h.29m.01s.

Well, video is 29.97 fps according to mediainfo,so that means that audio which is 25fps has to be sped up,not slowed down.

Audio doesn't have a frame rate.
It's obvious that if the audio is 1h29m and the video is 1h32m, the audio needs to be slowed down to make it last longer.

How?

manono gave you instructions already in the 2nd post

[manono]

Audio doesn't have a frame rate.

That's right, it doesn't. But sometimes when speaking of PAL to NTSC conversions it's just easier to think in framerates. Even the tools available for audio standards conversions do the same things. Just look at the BeSweet GUI presets.

It's obvious that if the audio is 1h29m and the video is 1h32m, the audio needs to be slowed down to make it last longer.

Yes, the first thing I did was to do some quick math and check for a 4+% greater length of the NTSC one as compared to the PAL one, and it checked out. This should be a simple matter to fix. If only Tsunamijhoe would just follow directions and quit arguing things about which he knows nothing. If he had, his work would be done by now. If I've done this once I've done it a thousand times.

[poisondeathray]

Yes the durations and ratios are very suggestive that is what is happening

5569 seconds vs. 5341 seconds

5341 x 25/(23.976) =~ 5569 seconds


But why would a German HDTV broadcast be using 29.97 ?

[Tsunamijhoe]

Audio doesn't have a frame rate.

That's right, it doesn't. But sometimes when speaking of PAL to NTSC conversions it's just easier to think in framerates. Even the tools available for audio standards conversions do the same things. Just look at the BeSweet GUI presets.

It's obvious that if the audio is 1h29m and the video is 1h32m, the audio needs to be slowed down to make it last longer.

Yes, the first thing I did was to do some quick math and check for a 4+% greater length of the NTSC one as compared to the PAL one, and it checked out. This should be a simple matter to fix. If only Tsunamijhoe would just follow directions and quit arguing things about which he knows nothing. If he had, his work would be done by now. If I've done this once I've done it a thousand times.

Don´t work dude. The video is way jerky,and mkvmerge gave an error
"Warning: Found one or more B frames without second reference in the first GOP. You may want to fix the MPEG2 video stream or use smart reencode before attempting to multiplex it."

And why the video is 29.97 i have no idea,this is the way it came,and this is what mediainfo reports

In besweet i can also convert the audio to 29.97 wouldnt that be the same as the video then?

[poisondeathray]

Don't use mkvmerge, use tsmuxer (isn't your goal to combine pal dvd audio to the hd transport stream ?)

For the pal audio
eac3to input.ac3 output.ac3 -slowdown

Use that output.ac3 (which should now the same length 5341 seconds) and mux with tsmuxer into the original .ts video

(or if you don't want to use eac3to, use besweet)

[Tsunamijhoe]

Don't use mkvmerge, use tsmuxer (isn't your goal to combine pal dvd audio to the hd transport stream ?)

For the pal audio
eac3to input.ac3 output.ac3 -slowdown

Use that output.ac3 (which should now the same length 5341 seconds) and mux with tsmuxer into the original .ts video

(or if you don't want to use eac3to, use besweet)

That -slowdown,does that need a value,or do i just write -slowdown? Reason why i wanted to use mkvmerge was to remove the german audio also,as it has the default flag

[manono]

Don´t work dude. The video is way jerky,and mkvmerge gave an error
"Warning: Found one or more B frames...

Of course, your 'new' problem has nothing to do with the audio fix suggested, so why are you blaming me? The -slowdown setting refers specifically to slowing the video from PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976fps.

In besweet i can also convert the audio to 29.97 wouldnt that be the same as the video then?

In how many more different ways can we tell you 'No'?

I don't work with TS much, so pdr can handle (and is handling) those problems.

[Tsunamijhoe]

Don´t work dude. The video is way jerky,and mkvmerge gave an error
"Warning: Found one or more B frames...

Of course, your 'new' problem has nothing to do with the audio fix suggested, so why are you blaming me?

In besweet i can also convert the audio to 29.97 wouldnt that be the same as the video then?

In how many more different ways can we tell you 'No'?

I don't work with MKVs, so pdr can handle (and is handling) those problems.

I am not blaming anyone, i was merely stating it didn´t work.. Maybe you should lay off the coffee for awhile? I have no idea how to do thsi,which is why i am asking a lot of qustions.. And i do try the things you suggest,but since i never used the programs and there are A LOT of settings in the programs like besweet.

Besweet doesnt work on my pc,nothing ever happens when i press go in wizard or use the gui,i am converting with eac3to seeing if that will work

[poisondeathray]

Don't use mkvmerge, use tsmuxer (isn't your goal to combine pal dvd audio to the hd transport stream ?)

For the pal audio
eac3to input.ac3 output.ac3 -slowdown

Use that output.ac3 (which should now the same length 5341 seconds) and mux with tsmuxer into the original .ts video

(or if you don't want to use eac3to, use besweet)

That -slowdown,does that need a value,or do i just write -slowdown? Reason why i wanted to use mkvmerge was to remove the german audio also,as it has the default flag

You can remove the german audio in tsmuxer (just uncheckmark the track)

No, these are default values. As mentioned earlier, audio doesn't have a "fps", but there are known constant values in cinema and broadcast

PAL rate is known to be 25.0 FPS. NTSC Film rate is known to be 24000/1001 exactly (23.976 is a 3 decimal approximation) . (I'm using "PAL" and "NTSC" loosely, because strictly speaking they don't apply to HD)

If this was a film source, chances are it was 24000/1001 to originally begin with - the audio was probably sped up for PAL broadcast. So if you reverse it, it will actually sound normal as the original film or blu-ray

eac3to's -slowdown reverses the PAL speedup exactly

[Tsunamijhoe]

Don't use mkvmerge, use tsmuxer (isn't your goal to combine pal dvd audio to the hd transport stream ?)

For the pal audio
eac3to input.ac3 output.ac3 -slowdown

Use that output.ac3 (which should now the same length 5341 seconds) and mux with tsmuxer into the original .ts video

(or if you don't want to use eac3to, use besweet)

That -slowdown,does that need a value,or do i just write -slowdown? Reason why i wanted to use mkvmerge was to remove the german audio also,as it has the default flag

You can remove the german audio in tsmuxer (just uncheckmark the track)

No, these are default values. As mentioned earlier, audio doesn't have a "fps", but there are known constant values in cinema and broadcast

PAL rate is known to be 25.0 FPS. NTSC Film rate is known to be 24000/1001 exactly (23.976 is a 3 decimal approximation) . (I'm using "PAL" and "NTSC" loosely, because strictly speaking they don't apply to HD)

If this was a film source, chances are it was 24000/1001 to originally begin with - the audio was probably sped up for PAL broadcast. So if you reverse it, it will actually sound normal as the original film or blu-ray

eac3to's -slowdown reverses the PAL speedup exactly

OK,it worked,only the audio is a little bit behind? Do i fix this by using the delay audio in ts muxer?

I also get these errors in ts muxer

Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 100ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 200ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 400ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 800ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 1601ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 3203ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 6406ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 12804ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 25600ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 51201ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 102402ms.
Warning! Source stream contain irregular pulldown marks. Mistiming between original fps and fps/1.25(without pulldown) exceed 204804ms.

[poisondeathray]

OK,it worked,only the audio is a little bit behind? Do i fix this by using the delay audio in ts muxer?

highlight the audio track, enter the delay in ms, push start muxing

To find out the delay, play the video in a media player, most will have a shift audio function (sometimes it's the +/- keys). Once it's in sync, write down the number . Eg. it might be -240ms. Enter that value in tsmuxer

I also get these errors in ts muxer

Not sure... never seen that one before

[Tsunamijhoe]

Hmm, well audio fits with -700ms at the beginning of the movie,and about 20 minutes in,then it gradually gets out of synch,so i am guessing something ant up to snuff with the original file,which might be why mkvmerge also gave an error message

[poisondeathray]

I bet there was a tranmission error , dropout or "blip" around that 20 minute mark . This is common for broadcast streams. It's a pain cutting and manually syncing up segments in an editor

The reason why original transport stream might be in sync, is the blip or discontinunity is recorded into the transport stream. There are also timing data in the transport stream to keep everything in sync

Was this mpeg2 video? the mkvmerge error said something about mpeg2. You can confirm with mediainfo (view=>text) . If it is, you can try fixing with videoredo's quickstream fix

[Tsunamijhoe]

Hmm, ok. if i mux using no delay at all, the audio lines up whole movie except for a very little bit -300ms acording to vlc,so if i remux the mux with -300 technically it should all be in synch then,right?


IT WORKED .. Audio is in synch whole movie. I have another question though, there are 4 subtitles embedded in the transport stream that neither my popcorn hour or the mux programs can detect,but vlc plays it fine,can i rip that to a srt or something? if so,how?

[poisondeathray]

Hmm, ok. if i mux using no delay at all, the audio lines up whole movie except for a very little bit -300ms acording to vlc,so if i remux the mux with -300 technically it should all be in synch then,right?

Yes it should be. But that is inconsistent with your earlier comment about after 20 minutes

Some players might use "delay" or "audio shift" so the sign might be opposite +300 vs. -300 . You'll know if you went the wrong direction

[poisondeathray]

IT WORKED .. Audio is in synch whole movie. I have another question though, there are 4 subtitles embedded in the transport stream that neither my popcorn hour or the mux programs can detect,but vlc plays it fine,can i rip that to a srt or something? if so,how?

It depends on the sub format. The 1st task is extracting sub then convert to .srt , then mux them back in with tsmuxer

You can use the demux function with tsmuxer if it detects the subs, if not all subs are detected, you can try eac3to input.ts -demux => this will demux all streams

If it's a CC, then try CCExtractor

You can use one of the subtitle utilities e.g. subtitle workshop to convert subs

If it's a retail movie, there might be .srt subs available on various subtitle sites that you can download

If you still need help, I would actually start a new topic in the subtitle subforum (since it's really a different topic, and you'll get more help there), or ask a mod to split this off

[Tsunamijhoe]

Hehe,well problem is,there are no retail subs available,i have the retail dvd,and no subs there,as well as subtitle sites,so the embedded ones is all there is.. My guess is they are CC as VLC picks them up as hearing imparied 1 through 4

CCextractor seems to work.. I can figure it out from here.. Thank you very much for all your help.. I havent fiddled with video conversions and stuff like that since the old days,where i had to use virtualdub and tempgen dvdrebuilder and loads of other programs..

This is a once in a blue moon kinda deal,as this movie does not exist on any hd format except this german release where the english track sounds horrible,which is why i replaced it with the dvd one ..

Now i got a working HD version with excellent DD 2.0 sound,and english selectable subtitles,all thanks to you guys