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  1. Member Immortal25's Avatar
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    Hi ppls...am planning to buy a new camcorder and I guess the dvd camcorders are a thing of the past now...skipped that generation I guess. Currently amusing a DV tape camcorder. Anyways, I found out about this SD Card and HDD camcorders and am not sure which is the better one? When the HDD first debuted, the worry was regarding reliability. Has it improved much? If it get spoilt, do we have to purchase a new camcorder? Or can the HDD be separated from the camcorder and just changed much like a computer?
    And how about SD Card? This is relatively new info for me. Never heard of them being incoporatd into camcorders just like that. Always used as a backup media storage sure...but as the main fella? Not quite..

    Thanks all
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  2. Member zoobie's Avatar
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    I'm been shooting HDV but I thought the new HDD cams were a really bad idea due to reliability. I also had back-to-back failures with my internal desktop HDD's a few years ago.

    However, I must admit I haven't seen many failures with the cam HDD's as I thought I would. Perhaps they're using solid-state HDD or somesuch. The new HDD cams I saw are tiny fitting in the palm of my hand. I've also read the new cards are expensive but still haven't noticed any reliability posts.

    You can probably get anything "fixed" for a price without having to buy all over again....especially if you get a warranty or extended warranty.

    Because of the new tech the newbies "must have", you can pick up some super bargains on Craig's list international. I just saw a lightly used 2 year old Sony DV cam (miniDV tape drive) for $35 that the owner knew nothing about...If you can go Standard Def, that's probably your best value. For High def, I think the Canon HV20/30 is probably still the best value but at considerably more.
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    I have a JVC that uses flash card technology, actually it has slots to two of them. The only issue with the cards is that they are expensive. After about 2 days of looking, I was able to get a 8gig class 6 card for about $20 at some online dealer. The 16/32 gig cards are very costly. The thing I do like about these flash camcorders is that there is no moving parts so the battery life is a little longer. I get about 90 minutes on the battery that came with my camcorder.

    joe...
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  4. Member Immortal25's Avatar
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    Yo guys...hmm...90 minutes for what sort of battery size and type? My minidv handycam batt can last 90min as well and the bigger batt which I purchased can last about 180min but of course those times are on the viewfinder...if you use the lcd then down it goes considerably.

    I also noticed some models don't have the viewfinder anymore... I still prefer it at times.

    Anyways... I'm aiming for a High Def Camcorder...but not exactly sure what to get? First of all the brand... Canon, Sony and Panasonic are my top three choices...

    Then the camcorder type...whether it's a HDD or a pure SD Card...Both have pros can cons as you guys mentioned.

    What are the other features that are important?
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  5. Originally Posted by Immortal25
    Anyways... I'm aiming for a High Def Camcorder...but not exactly sure what to get? First of all the brand... Canon, Sony and Panasonic are my top three choices...
    If you're going to go for an AVCHD camcorder (which many of the current cams are), prepare for trouble if you want to edit. Even playback can be an issue, since you have to convert/author to get it to DVDs or Blu-ray. They're best if you only need computer or standalone-player playback (or Youtube), without (much) editing, and even then you probably have to re-encode them.
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  6. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    get canon that is HDV on tape....or stick with DV....rest is a pig and useless, especially if u like to edit.
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  7. As was mentionned, if you want to do any editing of your recordings make sure to get something that can output video in a format that can easily do it. Your looking for DVD (MPEG2), some form of AVI (MP4) or DV.

    Some cameras come with software that will do conversion and output to disc; you would then be able to import into your program of choice and edit. Should mention that some cameras also let you do the editing in the camera, but that may not be very convenient.

    Another thing to look for is stabilisation; most of the SD cameras I've seen only support digital stabilisation. That's a poor system that in some circumstances can actually degrade the recordings. You should look for optical stabilisation; most HDD cameras have it.

    As for doing HD video recording, at this point in time the only convenient way to play it back on your TV is Bhooray. The price of a burner and media don't make this option very attractive. You could get a media player like the one from Western Digital, but then you still can't easily distribute your work to family and friends. So an HD camera would be nice to be ready for the future, since they can also record in SD video for today, but with prices going down all the time it may not be worth the money. Beside, a DVD playing on an up-converting player look pretty good.
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    I have 3CCD GS 500 Panny and I would not trade it for any HD cam. I make lots of movies and editing is important to me. I have all the tools to do the job quickly and efficiently. This new stuff is a nightmare. The technology is not mature. If you like to push the envelope, that's another story, but for good movie making, stick with SD. You can Google for a Panny GS 320 or 500, and be better off for now! The Canon HV40 (DV tape) is a good choice also.
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  9. Member zoobie's Avatar
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    Being able to manually set the settings is important...focus ring...etc
    I prefer a viewfinder at all times...consumer cams are dropping them now

    So what did you decide?
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  10. Member Immortal25's Avatar
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    Hey ppls! I've still not quite decided but to answer a few questions, indeed I want to do editing and not just playback...and I don't have a HD TV and no bluray player as well. so i suppose this means, I'm better off sticking to Standard Definition cams?

    Thing is, now should I get a Hard Disk Drive or a SD Card cam? I'm seeing a lot of this SD card cams..read some reviews as well. Most only complain that they are expensive and capacity's mostly around 32GB. How many hours can 32GB contain? On my old Mini DV tape camcorder, 1 tape about 60min takes up about 11GB...
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  11. One thing HDD cameras have over flash card ones is the extra features like optical stabilisation, better processing engines ... As for the size of the media, don't forget prices are always dropping and the HDDs they use aren't so big anyway (30 or 60GB). Nothing keeps you from buying a bunch of 4 or 8GB cards and swapping when needed. Also, the HDD don't last forever, then you need to replace the camera.

    As was mentionned before, for editing you'll want one that records in a format that's easy to deal with and that will depend on your software and system. On a Mac, quicktime and DV shouldn't be any problem, AVI might be Ok, but avoid DVD (MPEG2). I find DVD is the best on my PC with TDA. I can edit without re-encoding and author to DVD all in one shot. There are models in both types of camera that record to DVD format. The SD card one from JVC is one.
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  12. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Immortal25
    Hey ppls! I've still not quite decided but to answer a few questions, indeed I want to do editing and not just playback...and I don't have a HD TV and no bluray player as well. so i suppose this means, I'm better off sticking to Standard Definition cams?
    I have no HDTV and no BluRay and I've been shooting HDV for over two years now. Wouldn't dream of shooting SD.

    If you've no way of watching HD now at all (i.e. even your PC can't play it), and you don't want to keep your recordings for long (i.e. you're going to wipe them all a few weeks after use), then there's no reason to shoot HD. But most people have PCs that will play HDV, and most people record videos to keep for years, if not (hopefully) decades. In this case, it's a really shame to shoot SD, if you can afford HD.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  13. Fair enough, althought everything he's been shooting so far as been SD. Does that mean it's all good for the garbage bin? I think even SD can look good in an HD environment when viewed with an up-converting player. It can rival blueray if your player is a Toshiba XDE. The main point is ease of editing and storing; blueray burners and media is just so much more expensive than DVD. Streaming and HDD media players are fine, but have limitations of their own.
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  14. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Just be sure to get a sd camera with a widescreen option for recording if your not ready to go hd yet. THat way even though its standard def at least with it being widescreen it won't look quite as dated or "old school".

    Also don't forget that if you do go high def you need a pretty strong computer for editing. Think at least a dual core processor if you want it done in any relatively short processing time (quad would obviously be better). Plus remember harddrive space on your computer - the more the better - AND DON'T ERASE OR TOSS OUT THE TAPES! If you stick with a tape based format KEEP THE ORIGINAL RECORDINGS! That way you can always go back to the master and start over if you want to do another project with it. _ and on the same track if you go digital recordings MAKE BACKUPS of the original unedited file. Do not delete the master file. Make duplicates or triplicates. With 1tb and higher harddrives becoming more and more affordable a 20-30gb file or larger is not so hard to store anymore.
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  15. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nic2k4
    Fair enough, althought everything he's been shooting so far as been SD. Does that mean it's all good for the garbage bin? I think even SD can look good in an HD environment when viewed with an up-converting player. It can rival blueray if your player is a Toshiba XDE. The main point is ease of editing and storing; blueray burners and media is just so much more expensive than DVD. Streaming and HDD media players are fine, but have limitations of their own.
    If you haven't caught it yet, HDV makes a great transition format although manufacturers would rather push you to AVCHD requiring at least a new Core2QDuo computer, new edit software and expensive accessory flash ram.

    HDV shoots 1440x1080i to miniDV tape ($3 or less online for pro quality 62 minute tapes). HDV cams support output at HDV MPeg2 or downsized 720x480i DV format over IEEE-1394. For the latter you can use old DV software and older P4 hardware for DVD output. You can save the HDV tapes for the future computer and HDTV. The Canon HV20/30/40 models have pro features similar to or better than the GS-500 including manual audio control, on screen peak audio meters and Zebra exposure flags plus grids in the monitor. They also have extensive pro accessory support.

    AVCHD is so compressed (h.264) that a digital intermendiate edit format (e.g. Cineform NeoScene) conversion is necessary for any serious editing. Flash Ram (level 4-6 for 1440x1080i or 1920x1080i) will cost you well over $12 per hour).

    Many don't like tapes but most don't edit and don't care.
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  16. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nic2k4
    Fair enough, althought everything he's been shooting so far as been SD. Does that mean it's all good for the garbage bin?
    Obviously you're not going to throw away your video memories. But as you watch them in years to come, you'll probably wish you'd made the jump to HD at the earliest moment possible.

    I think even SD can look good in an HD environment when viewed with an up-converting player. It can rival blueray if your player is a Toshiba XDE.
    Well, I haven't seen this Toshiba XDE, but I seriously doubt it can upconvert consumer SD DV footage from a typical consumer camera and make it look anything like HD. Just because good upconversion can hide some of the obvious faults (as opposed to bad upconversion, which just makes it look like s**t!), doesn't mean it can generate convincing details. In PAL countries, a move from DV to HDV gives you 3.75x as many pixels. In NTSC countries, a move from DV to AVCHD will give you 6 times as many pixels. You can't pretend there's no improvement, and that SD looks about as good when upconverted properly.

    Even converting 320x240 to 640x480 and having it look acceptable is a challenge, and that's only a 4x increase in pixel count, without having to worry about interlacing. What you're suggesting is far harder.

    The main point is ease of editing and storing
    HDV is exactly the same size (physically(!), and in MBs) as DV. It's not hard to edit, and you can downconvert on-the-fly to DV and edit it as DV if your PC can't cope.

    However, if you bump HD to lossless or near lossless for some clever editing, compositing, etc then yes - it eats disc space - and keep those files is a problem.

    blueray burners and media is just so much more expensive than DVD.
    You can burn DVD-Rs with HD content to play on BluRay players. I don't know the details - I haven't done it. But HDTVs are now the default purchase in the UK - you have to look hard to find SD TVs. BluRay players are getting cheaper, and often bundled with the TVs. So it's something I'm going to have to face pretty soon.

    Cheers,
    David.
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  17. Member yoda313's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 2bdecided
    You can burn DVD-Rs with HD content to play on BluRay players. I don't know the details - I haven't done it.
    It's called AVCHD.

    Its quite doable. I use the hauppuage hdpvr1212 to capture hd via component cables and burn avchd that plays in my ps3 just fine.
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  18. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by yoda313
    Originally Posted by 2bdecided
    You can burn DVD-Rs with HD content to play on BluRay players. I don't know the details - I haven't done it.
    It's called AVCHD.

    Its quite doable. I use the hauppuage hdpvr1212 to capture hd via component cables and burn avchd that plays in my ps3 just fine.
    This is a pass through strategy without editing or processing. You take the camcorder output an store it on a data DVD-R. Some Blu-Ray players can play it as is without recode or reauthor.

    You run into problems when you try to edit or filter.
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  19. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    I think you can edit HDV and then encode to AVCHD (which is just a specific flavour of MPEG-4 AVC / H.264), can't you?

    I thought some people were just dropping HDV straight onto DVD-R and playing it in stand-alones, but I could be wrong. That might have been HD-DVD players!

    Cheers,
    David.
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  20. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided
    I think you can edit HDV and then encode to AVCHD (which is just a specific flavour of MPEG-4 AVC / H.264), can't you?
    Yes.

    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided
    I thought some people were just dropping HDV straight onto DVD-R and playing it in stand-alones, but I could be wrong. That might have been HD-DVD players!
    Yes but it may vary by Blu-Ray player. I haven't had access to enough models to generalize. There is no problem authoring to Blu-Ray format.

    Whether AVCHD (17 or 24Mb/s) or HDV (25 Mb/s) full quality play time on a DVD-5 is limited to 20-30min. DVD-9 dual layer would take 38-55 min.
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  21. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    Can't you use a lower bitrate (accepting a quality hit) if you're encoding it yourself?

    I can't see why it wouldn't work - and modern professional encoders are producing half-decent 1080i at 9Mbps. That gets you 1 hour on a DVD-5... and let's face it, who wants to spend more than an hour watching home movies? Edit it down to five minutes, and your friends+family will be even more grateful!

    Cheers,
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  22. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 2Bdecided
    Can't you use a lower bitrate (accepting a quality hit) if you're encoding it yourself?

    I can't see why it wouldn't work - and modern professional encoders are producing half-decent 1080i at 9Mbps. That gets you 1 hour on a DVD-5... and let's face it, who wants to spend more than an hour watching home movies? Edit it down to five minutes, and your friends+family will be even more grateful!

    Cheers,
    David.
    Yes but the quality hit to 9Mb/s is significant. I'd rather keep full quality but in short segements or go to Blu-Ray.
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  23. Member Immortal25's Avatar
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    Ahhh...guys...I went to a local store the other day and this fella told me that if I wanted easy editing and best quality, High Def Mini DV cams are the way to go. He said forget the HDD and memory stick camcorders...but go for High Def and MiniDV which means the old tapes.

    Well after reading what you guys say, I think I'll go for High Def...but now what sort of storage format camcorder should I get? HDD? Memory Stick? Or just go back to miniDV tapes? And as for the HDV and AVCHD... I should tick with HDV then?
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  24. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Immortal25
    Ahhh...guys...I went to a local store the other day and this fella told me that if I wanted easy editing and best quality, High Def Mini DV cams are the way to go. He said forget the HDD and memory stick camcorders...but go for High Def and MiniDV which means the old tapes.

    Well after reading what you guys say, I think I'll go for High Def...but now what sort of storage format camcorder should I get? HDD? Memory Stick? Or just go back to miniDV tapes? And as for the HDV and AVCHD... I should tick with HDV then?
    HDV uses MiniDV tape (62 or 83 minutes) and transfers over IEEE-1394. There are external hard disk options or you can record live to a laptop hard drive over IEEE-1394 when you need longer recording times. This is the tape I use ($2.99 per hour).
    http://www.tapestockonline.com/pa63mipqus.html

    AVCHD uses level 4 to 6 flash ram or internal hard drives. This is typical level 4 SD flash media used for about 83 minutes of AVCHD at top quality 24 Mb/s mode or ~ $22/hr. Sometimes you can do better on sale. It is false economy to shoot at lower than 17Mb/s. The quality hit makes it not worth considering.
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134971

    HDV uses less compressed and easier to edit MPeg2. AVCHD uses more compressed and difficult to edit h.264 AVC.

    Is that clear?
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  25. Member Immortal25's Avatar
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    Alright...understood mate..thanks for the info. Currently I'm using Pinnacle Studio to edit vids... Well as difficult as it is, what software is recomended to edit AVCHD format?

    And I know you guys mentioned about converting the AVCHD into HDV and re-edit there...but is it worth all the trouble? And do you lose any quality when you convert ala other video conversion?
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  26. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Immortal25
    Alright...understood mate..thanks for the info. Currently I'm using Pinnacle Studio to edit vids... Well as difficult as it is, what software is recomended to edit AVCHD format?

    And I know you guys mentioned about converting the AVCHD into HDV and re-edit there...but is it worth all the trouble? And do you lose any quality when you convert ala other video conversion?
    We have been recommending you go with the HDV format and specifically the Canon HV20/30/40 series.

    Your P4 3MHz may just work for direct HDV format editing although a Core2Duo would be better. The last few versions of most edit programs support HDV. Alternately, HDV camcorders will downscale to DV format.

    The latest Pinnacle Studio imports AVCHD but you will need a new computer to use it (minimum Core2Duo, Core2Quad recommended). Even that will be slow. I doubt your P4 3MHz will even play AVCHD at 1x.

    Alternately you can buy the Cineform NeoScene digital intermediate codec with a compatible editor (Sony Vegas Movie Studio is the cheapest). That will slowly work with a P4 3MHz but they recommend a Core2Duo or better.
    http://www.cineform.com/neoscene/features.php
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  27. Member Immortal25's Avatar
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    Hey guys... you think I should just fix my current old camcorder as I've not able to decide on which model to purchase yet? Thing is locally they are charging pretty high to fix the drum and something on my old Sony Handycam. And they only give 3 months warranty.

    Oh, edDV, I forgot to update my computer specs...the P4 was my old pc..I'm using a PEntium D dual core...hwoever still not the core 2 duo or quad core... Am planning to get a new pc early next year so we'll see.

    A few questions about AVCHD editing... so if I have the software and the machine to do it, then all is well? But final output will definitely be in HD content? Or can I downgrade into DVD? Thing is, if I get a AVCHD cam now and can still output into regular DVD and stuff I just need to wait for a bluray burner or something to drop in price before really editing in bluray format... In this case, I'd be doing a long term investment... in the future I just need to purchase a bluray burner or a bluray player...

    *Edit* I've just updated my computer specs
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  28. Member 2Bdecided's Avatar
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    I don't think there's much point paying someone to fix an old DV camcorder. You can probably buy (working!) used ones from eBay for less money than the cost of repairing yours.

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    David.
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  29. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Immortal25
    Hey guys... you think I should just fix my current old camcorder as I've not able to decide on which model to purchase yet? Thing is locally they are charging pretty high to fix the drum and something on my old Sony Handycam. And they only give 3 months warranty.

    Oh, edDV, I forgot to update my computer specs...the P4 was my old pc..I'm using a PEntium D dual core...hwoever still not the core 2 duo or quad core... Am planning to get a new pc early next year so we'll see.

    A few questions about AVCHD editing... so if I have the software and the machine to do it, then all is well? But final output will definitely be in HD content? Or can I downgrade into DVD? Thing is, if I get a AVCHD cam now and can still output into regular DVD and stuff I just need to wait for a bluray burner or something to drop in price before really editing in bluray format... In this case, I'd be doing a long term investment... in the future I just need to purchase a bluray burner or a bluray player...

    *Edit* I've just updated my computer specs
    All of the above continues to point to an HDV camcorder as your optimal investment.

    1. It will play and transfer your existing MiniDV tape library (no need to fix the old camcorder).
    2. Your current Pentium D is adequate to edit HDV format and ideal for DV.
    3. The HDV camcorder will hardware downconvert HDV to DV format saving hours for software conversion.
    4. If you get a Blu-Ray player you can create playable HD on DVD-5 or DVD-9 recordable media (no immediate need to buy a BR writer).
    5. Instead of a Blu-Ray player, you can buy a variety of HD media players that will play HDV MPeg2 directly.

    Considering the above, you can cover your needs for a camcorder and player for under $1000 investment.

    For AVCHD, your current computer is still below minimum spec for Pinnacle or the Cineform codec. Even if you upgrade the computer, AVCHD editing is probematic and requires conversion to seriously edit. This reduces picture quality. It is possible to do cuts editing to the GOP without decoding the h.264. AVCHD camcorders do not convert HD to SD although you can shoot SD. Software conversion from AVCHD to DV is complex and takes many hours per hour on a Pentium D.

    I have two Core2Quad computers and still prefer HDV over AVCHD for end product quality and productivity.
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  30. Member zoobie's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be surprised when next March rolls around you can pick up a gently used HDV cam for $300...

    Seems I read you can save the capped 1080i as progressive and it changes the colorspace like the Cineform codec

    I think some were dropping HDV as mpeg2 on DVD discs into their little Playstations and it played...
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