Legal / Ethical Question

[HmNtr]

Hey everyone,

I have a legal/ethical question that maybe some one here might be able to answer.

I am having a yard sale next weekend, and I want to sell off a lot of my movies so that I can pay my rent, but I was wondering if I make backup copies of my movies and then sell the originals, is that legal or illegal to do?

I live in Arizona, USA, so I do not know what the laws are on duplicating a movie then selling the original. Do I have to keep the original to keep the copy?

If some one could help me out with this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

HmNtr

[stiltman]

Making a backup copy of your DVD by breaking CSS is illeagal in the USA
Making a backup copy of your DVD by breaking CSS and selling the original is illeagal too

Same as copying a rental

[HmNtr]

So wait a second, it is illegal, even under fair use, to make a back up of my DVD movies, the ones that I have paid good money for, just because I live in the United States?!

How asinine!

Do you have a reference as to the US Title or Code that prohibits this action? I would very much like to read that one over...

Anyone else know much about this?

[stiltman]

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) states that it's illegal to break the CSS copy-protection

If you don't break CSS, then it's legal.
Try to copy a movie DVD without breaking CSS

[Conquest10]

You cannot keep the backup once you sell the original.

[waheed]

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) states that it's illegal to break the CSS copy-protection

If you don't break CSS, then it's legal.
Try to copy a movie DVD without breaking CSS

So technically speaking, you can make a backup movie from another backup movie made previously (by anyone) since you are not breaking any CSS protection.

A nice loophole.

[gadgetguy]

Based on past discussions on this subject, according to US Copyright law it is illegal to make a backup of a DVD without the permission of the copyright holder, regardless of any encryption or copy protection. Fair use provisions allow some limited use of the content, but the DMCA provisions make it impossible to access that content. Nothing in the Fair Use provisions allow you to make a copy and sell, or even give away, the original.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

I believe it is legal to copy movies that are public domain (Reefer Madness for example), but you cannot make any money off of your copy. If the disc of your public domain movie has copy protection then it is illegal to break that protection to copy it though.
There are some movies that do not contain any copy protection and the creators actually encourage copying and distributing them. Without getting into a political discussion most cannot be mentioned here but one example is a fairly well known "documentary" about (against) Wal-Mart.

[thecoalman]

Do you have a reference as to the US Title or Code that prohibits this action? I would very much like to read that one over...

DVD's are not specifically addressed in copyright law except the standard law which says you need permission from the copyright holder to make a copy. There's specific laws and exemptions that address audio and software but there is none for video. the argument is this makes in illegal to have a copy of DVD which I think stands to reason. The courts have not addressed the issue and probably never will unless there is reversal of the DMCA which is very unlikely.

The DMCA doesn't specifically state you can't make a copy of DVD, it states you can't break copy protection schemes to make a copy and that would include software, audio and video as I understand it. That supersede all copyright laws, even if fair use allowed you to have a copy you have no way of legally obtaining one.


As for your original post it's illegal and unethical to make copies if you intend on selling the discs, that is without question. You have purchased a license to view the content when you buy a DVD, you do not own the material. When the DVD is sold you are selling the license to the buyer and have no rights to the material anymore.

So technically speaking, you can make a backup movie from another backup movie made previously (by anyone) since you are not breaking any CSS protection. rolleyes.gif

A nice loophole.

Nope, because the copy has been obtained from an illegal source.

[Supreme2k]

I am having a yard sale next weekend, and I want to sell off a lot of my movies so that I can pay my rent, but I was wondering if I make backup copies of my movies and then sell the originals, is that legal or illegal to do?

The real questions are, do you want to do this and will you get caught?

The first answer is up to you. The second answer is: Damn near impossible. If you really want to do this, it really is more of an ethical question than legal, as long as it's for personal use. Once youstart selling the copies, your chances of getting caught increase.

I have known people who did it all the time. They get DVDs and CDs from the library and make their own copy. Same with Netflix. Most of the time, they never watch or listen to the disc again. They're mostly just hoarders.

I'm not sure if you're just trying to get feedback or start a discussion for entertainment purposes, but this information can be found anywhere on the web. The bottom line is that it is up to you what you do. This is nowhere near the same as grand theft auto, as the PSAs on the discs would have you believe, so it's not a huge moral choice.

[gadgetguy]

I believe it is legal to copy movies that are public domain (Reefer Madness for example), but you cannot make any money off of your copy. If the disc of your public domain movie has copy protection then it is illegal to break that protection to copy it though.
There are some movies that do not contain any copy protection and the creators actually encourage copying and distributing them. Without getting into a political discussion most cannot be mentioned here but one example is a fairly well known "documentary" about (against) Wal-Mart.

I thought that once a work becomes public domain, that it can be used by anyone for any purpose, whether for-profit or not. But you don't get exclusive use of it and you can't claim copyright privileges. Works that the copyright holder has given permission to be freely distributed I don't think negates copyright privileges, so even though they've given permission to be copied and distributed, they may restrict it to only be copied in it's complete form (aside from fair use provisions).

[adam]

The DMCA has an exemption for Fair Use copying, so there is no loophole there. If its Fair Use you can legally bypass CSS or other forms of encryption. If what you are doing is not Fair Use then it doesn't matter if there is CSS or other encryption, it is still a copyright violation. If you bypass CSS or other encryption in the process of this copying, then you have violated the DMCA in addition to the copyright on the work. They are separate provisions carrying different civil liabilities.

Here is the section of the DMCA that exempts Fair Use copying:

17 USCS §1201 (c) Other Rights, Etc., Not Affected.—(1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/usc_sec_17_00001201----000-.html

DVDs are just containers for audiovisual works, which are clearly protected by Copyright. There are only a few cases that have posed the question of whether making a complete digital copy of a DVD for archival purposes might be considered Fair Use, and in a round about way they have always found a way to resolve the case without answering the question. The Copyright Register, however, has repeatedly fielded this question from private citizens and consumer organizations and they have made it very clear that they do not recognize a Fair Use right to copy DVDs and that the current caselaw also cannot support the argument. Basically, their rulings have been that the right will not exist until the Legislature expressly drafts an exemption.

Read this thread for the language of the Register's ruling on copying DVDs.
https://forum.videohelp.com/topic337797.html?highlight=register

As for works in the public domain, you can do anything you want with the actual original work including re-selling it. But if someone takes a public domain work and changes it or compiles it with other public or non-public works then there is a new copyright on that work or compilation which can be infringed on. Whenever you see a $1 DVD of those old movies in the grocery store, those are almost always just a public domain work that a private studio has slapped onto a DVD. You can download the original work and copy it 1000 times but if you buy that DVD you have to treat it like any other commercial DVD, which means no copying.

[Xylob the Destroyer]

...The real questions are, do you want to do this and will you get caught?

The first answer is up to you. The second answer is: Damn near impossible...

As me old pappy used to say: "Ain't nothin' illegal unless ya gets caught".
As for "immoral"...
Your morals may not be the same as mine, or the next guy's or the lady sitting next to him.
Hell, many have said that I have no morals at all. :P

HmNtr, are you feeling guilty about something that you've already done and now you're looking for somebody with some legal savvy to ease your conscience? (not accusing, just asking)

[HmNtr]

I'm not sure if you're just trying to get feedback or start a discussion for entertainment purposes, but this information can be found anywhere on the web.

Hello Supreme2k, and thanks for the reply. I actually was trying to get feedback with regards to this because I really did not know the answer.

Since I had first started receiving replies to this post, I have been doing a lot of research on the net with regards to the DMCA and all related topics so that I would know more about it all.

I have also queried Google about it, and had found many articles on this type of subject. Overall, I feel that I have learned quite a bit about the whole DMCA subject now, and am thankful for all the replies that were forthcoming.

I would also like to add that after reading all about this, that I am not going to backup the movies that I am going to sell...I don't have the hard drive space for it anyways...

Thanks again for all the feedback that everyone has given me.

With regards,

HmNtr

[HmNtr]

HmNtr, are you feeling guilty about something that you've already done and now you're looking for somebody with some legal savvy to ease your conscience? (not accusing, just asking)

Hello Xylob,

nah, not feeling guilty because I have not done anything...lol...

I was honestly asking because I really had no clue about what the legalities were regarding copying a movie and then selling the original. I have since realized that 1. I did not have the hard drive space to backup all the movies that I intended to sell, and 2. I realized that the movies that I wanted to sell were not very interesting to me any more any ways, so 3. what is the point in copying movies that I can see on television every few months anyways?! lmao

I have a bunch of movies (from Anime to Action to Drama to Comedy to Horror) so I just wanted to find out what the laws regarding the copying were was all...

Thanks again for all the replies from everyone!

HmNtr

[Supreme2k]

3. what is the point in copying movies that I can see on television every few months anyways?!

My FARTing problem would be that the GOL DURN movies that I watch would be so FLIPPed up from the motherLOVING censors that they'd be pretty FLIPPING unrecognizable.


If I had to sell my stuff to pay rent, I'd be more than happy to make "backups" first, and do it with a clear conscience. I've already unintentionally done that anyway. I've sold CDs back to the shop that I had ripped. The thing is that I sold them because I didn't listen to them anymore, so it didn't enter my mind that I still had copies. Some of them I only found (years later) while doing "spring cleaning" on my drives. I probably have a few songs from discs that i have given away. Ripping discs is a chore in both directions: Rip and "unrip".

Also, my remark about this thread being purely hypothetical was "just in case", since we've had a few baiters trying to find out if there were any theves or hypocrites on this site (ie. old-timer trying to get people to help him rip a rented disc).

[HmNtr]

Also, my remark about this thread being purely hypothetical was "just in case", since we've had a few baiters trying to find out if there were any theves or hypocrites on this site (ie. old-timer trying to get people to help him rip a rented disc).

Nah, I am no such person, I actually had the question in mind because I was thinking about doing it, then I was like....ummm....hmmm...better ask the guys over at VideoHelp first if this is gonna be a bad thing to do...lol....I'm not kidding, I actually had been thinking those words to myself, and that is why I began this thread...heh heh heh...glad I did too, because not only did I have a very informative conversation, but I also had a great learning experience by searching out the DMCA, and found quite a few great links, which I will share with you all as well....

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2002/10/29/101740.php

http://www.anti-dmca.org/docs.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWE/is_7_8/ai_n6142564/pg_2

http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3513_7-5128652-1.html

http://www.bitwisemag.com/copy/reviews/software/dvdsoftware/dvdsoftware.html -- near the bottom of the page: YES, BUT IS IT LEGAL?

http://www.pcreviewonline.com/reviews/utilities/anydvd/anydvd.html

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22344851_ITM


And these were just a few of the ones that I read! lol

[Xylob the Destroyer]

...If I had to sell my stuff to pay rent, I'd be more than happy to make "backups" first, and do it with a clear conscience...

Damn straight.

[lordsmurf]

If you have free time to read, check this out
http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/RealDVD/Transfer_Order.pdf

Or find a brief online.