Theater recording equipment

[theaterguy]

All,
I am recording, editing and authoring DVDs of shows for an amateur theater. Basically this is "live shooting" - I get the footage at the show with audience over a couple of nights. The editing is mostly cutting scenes out of the different shows and putting them together with some of the standard transition available in the authoring program. The most important requirements for the camera is low light performance as well as a decent auto-focus.

So far I have been using an old SD camera and Premiere Elements. It is time to get new equipment and the budget is 10-12K USD and will be used for 2 cameras, tripods, and a new PC + software. It must be HD and I plan to produce BD rather than DVD.

I have been pretty hooked on the Canon HF 10 but reading reviews has really made me question the AVCHD format and the difficulties reported with editing it. Searching in the HDV space has made me consider either the Canon HV 30 or perhaps trying to squeeze down the expenses for PC and tripods and then go for the Sony HVR-A1U.

I would like your comments on:

1 - Is AVCHD as problematic as many posts indicate? The budget should be sufficient to get a high-end PC as well as the software that supports AVCHD. Was looking at a Q9550 2.83 Gh + Pinnacle Studio 12 ultimate.

2 - Will the semi-pro Sony HVR-A1U be too sophisticated for an armature spare-time photographer.

3 - Other alternatives

Thanks !

[Soopafresh]

1 - Is AVCHD as problematic as many posts indicate? The budget should be sufficient to get a high-end PC as well as the software that supports AVCHD. Was looking at a Q9550 2.83 Gh + Pinnacle Studio 12 ultimate.

It's a pain, less so than before, but nonetheless not as easy to edit as HDV (which is Mpeg2). Your CPU choice is pretty good. Get lots of disk space - 1TB or more. You can convert the AVCHD files to an intermediate codec such as HuffyUV or Lagarith and editing will be easier as a result. There are many apps which can do this, one example is http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/te4xp.html which you can also use to encode your final edited video back to Blu Ray standard MPEG2. Both AVCHD and HDV have advantages and disadvantages.

2 - Will the semi-pro Sony HVR-A1U be too sophisticated for an armature spare-time photographer.

Very nice camera, some professional features. Overkill? Hard to say. More your decision. At that physical size, filming becomes something that you plan to do rather than spontaneously grab your camera and run as you might with a smaller handheld camcorder. This guy demonstrates some of the features of the camera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn8uV2SHdEg&fmt=18

It'll be somewhat better than a consumer grade camcorder for low light conditions, but you'll need to know how to set it to properly to shoot in low light, otherwise it will look very grainy and bad. See this example, HVR-A1U and badly shot video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsSwTkjB9jM&fmt=18

Consumer level camcorders like the HF10 or HV30 - you need to take them out of automatic mode, because you don't want the auto-gain creating grainy looking video in low light conditions. Even the pros have to take low lighting into consideration. Stanley Kubrick had a camera and lens specially made for the indoor scenes of "Barry Lyndon". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqkBzaFqcuE

By using the "exposure lock" trick, you can get pretty good and clean video in low light. Watch this video all the way through and you'll see how the first part (in autogain mode) is grainy and bad looking compared to the second part of the video which uses the exposure lock trick.

http://vimeo.com/404844

Exposure Lock Trick in Detail: http://dvxuser.com/jason/hv20/

And how to do it with a Canon HF or HG Series Camcorder http://vimeo.com/1051823

Video comparison of the HVR-A1U to the Canon HV30 http://vimeo.com/1692929

If you end up getting 2 cameras, make sure they're both HDV or both AVCHD. Otherwise, you workflow will be a nightmare. Also consider getting the same camera because trying to color balance 2 different camcorders can be difficult. Plus, you can use the same accessories for both cameras.


3 - Other alternatives

The thing I've learned in owning an HD camcorder (Canon HV30) is that the camcorder itself ends up being the least expensive piece of the puzzle. You'll want more and longer life batteries, better microphones, wide angle lenses, filters, tripods (a good fluid head tripod can be very expensive), stabilizers, etc. And you'll have to practice to get good.

If you decide to get AVCHD cameras, look at the Canon HG20. It shoots in true 1920x1080 mode and has a large hard drive to store 5 hours of video at highest quality setting.

On the HDV side, the Canon HV30 is a really good camera for the money. It requires DV tapes and transfer from the camera to the PC is in realtime speed. Do a search on Vimeo.com for HV30 clips.


Get at least 1 wide angle lens - the Raynox 6600 or 7000 is pretty good for the HV30. For the HG20, look at the HD5050Pro. So if you have 2 cameras, you can get a wide shot from one and a normal shot from the other.


Another trick is to record the dress rehearsals with yourself on stage and record moving shots with a stabilizer device such as a Steadicam Merlin or Hague Mini Motion Cam. You'll see what it does in this example: http://vimeo.com/850082

Think about how the audio is going to feed into your camera. Can you get a line from the audio mixing board in the theater ? That will sound 100X better than trying to catch the sound from your on board mics on the camera.


Factor in the cost of a Blu Ray drive and authoring software with your PC. Get minimally a 24" wide screen monitor so you can view 1920x1080 video while you edit.

[theaterguy]

Thanks for your thorough response with the helpful pointers , Soopafresh !

The two cameras will definitely be identical and properly AVCHD based. I agree with capturing the sound from the mixing board. The steadycam suggestion really got my attention, will look more into that.

Again thanks,

[Soopafresh]

No problem. Do some test shooting in low light, and come back to this post when you see the noise problem. There's also a virtualdub plugin which will reduce camcorder color noise from low light.

[edDV]

Check out the camera rentals in your local market. They also rent the needed accessories, audio and lighting equipment. At a minimum consider renting the second cam.

[theaterguy]

The cameras are ordered (HF10) and I am now planning the build of the PC.

I will be using Pinnacle Studio 12 Ultimate - the system requirements for this product is pretty loose on the graphics card, properly because it doesn't make much difference (CPU intensive work rather than GPU). Is that correct, or will I benefit from getting a specific graphics processor ?
Any pro/cons for NVIDIA/ATI other than religious ones?

For the OS I am considering the 64 bit version of Vista. Any down sides ? Have not been able to determine if TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress is supported on 64 bit.

Thanks !

[edDV]

You need to know you have chosen the higher risk path for each item.

AVCHD is more difficult to edit and play than HDV. The main advantage is >63/85min recording.

Pinnacle Studio is known for stability issues vs. Vegas or ULead

64bit Vista has more compatibility issues than 32 bit Vista or 32 bit XP.

You might solve each of these bleeding edge issues but your main job is to spend your time shooting and editing amateur theater.

Just my observation.

[theaterguy]

Thanks Ed,
I am asking about 64 bit to get exactly that kind of feed back.

As for AVCHD edit I will use TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress to convert to a more manageable format. HDV is intriguing but would like to avoid the tapes.

Will take a look at the suggested software.

Any comments to the video card question in general (not specific to Pinnacle then) ?

[Soopafresh]

I'd encourage you to consider the Nvidia line of graphics cards, as GPU specific decoders for AVCHD are beginning to appear (see DGavcdecNV ).

[theaterguy]

Thanks,
That is great insight.

I have looked at Sony Vegas Pro and it definitely looks good. I remember reading somewhere about a problem with AVCHD import from Panasonic cameras, and I realize this is far out: But is AVCHD AVCHD, or do the different brands have their own proprietary twist to the "standard" ?

In other words - for import/edit/author purposes will I be better of with Sony camera + Sony software, or is the Canon as compatible with Vegas as any Sony camera ?

[edDV]

Thanks,
That is great insight.

I have looked at Sony Vegas Pro and it definitely looks good. I remember reading somewhere about a problem with AVCHD import from Panasonic cameras, and I realize this is far out: But is AVCHD AVCHD, or do the different brands have their own proprietary twist to the "standard" ?

In other words - for import/edit/author purposes will I be better of with Sony camera + Sony software, or is the Canon as compatible with Vegas as any Sony camera ?

AVCHD is a standard in flux. Camcorders must fix firmware to mfgr time so some brands deviate and don't get grandfathered. You are safer with Sony (family) or Canon (popular).

Again HDV is a fixed standard and is safe.

[Soopafresh]

ed - I don't have Vegas, but would you see if you can import this clip from the Canon HF100 into your copy?

http://www.filefactory.com/file/6201ca/n/HF100_MTS

The actual download link says "Download with FileFactory Basic"