HP dvd+r's?

[championjosh]

Anybody used them before??? Im thinkin about snaging a cake of them on sale. I need some insites on them before i waste my money.


-thanks

[budz]

If you're in the USA buy the 100 pack spindle of SONY dvd media from BEST BUY which is on sale $22.99.

HP is probably manufactured by RITEK or CMC which is crappy media to use.

[championjosh]

i usually use SONY. and i see them on sale.

but what about TDK? How are they?

[oldandinthe way]

Both TDK and HP DVD+R media tend to be CMC.

Owners of many DVD writers have good success with both brands. Owners of some DVDwriters have problems with them.

I don't know who makes your DVDwriter so I wouldn't predict what your results will be. I would recommend making certain your writer's firmware is up to date before changing media.

If SONY works for you, staying with it is low risk, unless they change the media they relabel again. Many people do have problems with SONY media but they are usually owners of older drives whose firmware is out of date.

[jman98]

You can always go to http://www.nomorecoasters.com and see what you think of their opinions.

CMC's DVD-R media (not what the original poster asked about) is just terrible. I have a friend who uses them and they have flaws from the moment they are burned.

Sony is reported to now sometimes use lower quality manufacturers for some of their media. If it says Made in India on the cakebox, a lot of people avoid it.

[lordsmurf]

Do not buy Malaysian Sony, only made in Taiwan or Japan Sony.

[Gen-An]

You can always go to http://www.nomorecoasters.com and see what you think of their opinions.

CMC's DVD-R media (not what the original poster asked about) is just terrible. I have a friend who uses them and they have flaws from the moment they are burned.

I would have to disagree with this. CMC MAG.AE1 and CMC MAG.AM3 are decent MIDs.

[oldandinthe way]

Last years VSO study showed more succesful burns with CMC media than any other maker. Burns to completion are not the only measure of acceptable quality, but if the media does not burn to completion all else is irrevelant.

At this point in time there may be more CMC media sold in retail outlets than any other manufacturer's media, so there are a lot of burns.

[budz]

Let's just see how long those CMC media will last as far as longevity is concerned. How long will it take before the files are no longer readable. Hmmm......I wouldn't be saving anything of importance on CMC discs....Would you???

[orsetto]

Gen-An:

I would have to disagree with this. CMC MAG.AE1 and CMC MAG.AM3 are decent MIDs.

oldandinthe way:

Last years VSO study showed more succesful burns with CMC media than any other maker. Burns to completion are not the only measure of acceptable quality, but if the media does not burn to completion all else is irrevelant.

At this point in time there may be more CMC media sold in retail outlets than any other manufacturer's media, so there are a lot of burns.

Sorry, but this is meaningless to the many folks who CANNOT burn CMC media. It is true CMC sells more at retail than anyone else, but to be clear that is ONLY because CMC *bought out* practically every brand name sold in the US retail channel aside from Sony. So most store brands, HP, TDK, Verbatim, etc are now CMC.

Last year this was unpleasant but manageable: the CMC usually burned passably 80% of the time, in a pinch you could use them if they were all you could find in a store. In the last few months, whatever "quality" they had has dropped considerably to 99% failure rate in many spindles bought at retail of typical CMC MAG.AM3 rebranded discs. The discs they make for Verbatim are higher grade but randomly incompatible with many burners that were on the market even a month before their introduction. CMC dominance is the worst thing to ever happen to blank media, period. If you burn EXCLUSIVELY on a PC-installed writer, and can either update the firmware or rip it out altogether and swap it for a new burner periodically, you can keep up with CMC's shenanigans. But if your burner is proprietary and embedded in a DVD recorder or Apple computer, you're screwed.

The only alternatives for those of us in that boat (and we are legion) are TY bought online or Sony Taiwan bought at retail. Even then you have a 1 in 4 chance your burner will reject the Sony and some don't like various flavors of TY. I am responding to every media post I see, and boring you all with the same repetitive rants , because I think its LUDICROUS that we consumers have been shafted with no options available at most retailers. For all practical purposes, finding and burning adequate DVD media is about as easy as finding Daguerrotype photo supplies. I hate this!

The Ritek fiasco was one thing, CMC becoming the new "evil empire " is quite another. I've had it.

[lordsmurf]

Burns to completion are not the only measure of acceptable quality

Actually, "burning to completion" is not a measure of any kind.

Most coasters "burned okay" but the data was unrecoverable. This is the primary reason people whine "my data disappeared" as they assume it "burned okay" at some date long ago. When they FINALLY go to access the content (be it video or data), they get a nasty surprise. I've seen this more and more with modern burners, that seem to be uncaring in how well the data actually got onto the blank (i.e., not halting on a bad spot on the disc, but "burning through" like nothing's wrong).

"My data disappeared!" = "My hot Playboy model wife disappeared!" = "My Picasso painting disappeared!"
Odds are you never had any of those.

So while the VSO study is interesting in some areas (what media is burned most), it's 100% useless in others (what media passes quality tests, and whether data actually made it onto the disc or not).

CMC and RITEK have been consistently unreliable media since they first started producing blank DVDs. Riteks discs in 2001-2002 sucked then, and they suck now. Same for CMC. All those fools who jumped on the RITEKG03 and RITEKG04 bandwagon really got raked over the coals when they started to truly use the media (not just "burn" or "test" it), and we'll see the same with CMC if complaints are not made very loud and clear.

ATTENTION CMC MAGNETICS: QUIT MAKING SHIT.
ATTENTION HEWLETT-PACKARD (HP): QUIT BUYING AND RE-BRANDING SHIT.
WE NOTICE!

[jman98]

Gen-An:

Sorry, but this is meaningless to the many folks who CANNOT burn CMC media. It is true CMC sells more at retail than anyone else, but to be clear that is ONLY because CMC *bought out* practically every brand name sold in the US retail channel aside from Sony. So most store brands, HP, TDK, Verbatim, etc are now CMC.

This is COMPLETELY untrue about Verbatim. Verbatim still uses MCC made media. Note the difference - same letters but VERY DIFFERENT order. MCC is Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation. CMC is another company.

I mail order all of my media so I know what I get. I can no longer trust my local Best Buy to have Verbatim media in stock, so I just mail order when I need something rather than buy some crap like CMC made discs because they are all I can find.

I agree with lordsmurf. I think a lot of people are in for a nasty surprise when they use CMC media. I posted earlier about my friend's discs and they bad from the moment of being burned - the discs themselves are just crap.

[oldandinthe way]

Inadequate testing of many drives with large number of available media is a common problem recognized by the optical storage industry leading to significant compatibility problems between drives and media. See the reports of the OSTA compatibility committee.

It is now several years since CMC has become a dominant manufacturer. There has been no consumer uproar.

Even on this forum most of the media complaints are "can't burn". If you can't burn it it won't go bad.

In my experience branded CMC media - HP, TDK, Imation etc is consistant in quality. House brand CMC media - Staples, Dynex, Windata shows physical flaws with frequency. I can't sucessfully burn DVDs with physical flaws with my modern drives, and If I can't burn a DVD I actually look at it, I can almost always see the flaw - coating unevenness, scratches. Sure there is crap media, but in my experience most of it gets caught before the product ships in a name brand spindle.

The VSO study is not representative of media quality, it is representative of drive/media compatibility. Some drives clearly cannot burn some brands of media. Some drives can burn just about any media.

Marginal burns occur with some drive/media combinations and these lead to early failures and some interchangeability problems.

I don't verify burns any more unless I am burning while performing competing tasks. Why - no errors. For the past 18 months or more, I haven't had a DVD refuse to read in my hardware unless the equipment was failing (with the exception of 4x prodisc which was being dumped when I bought it). I replaced the failing hardware and poof my DVDs read again. Or I copied the bad DVDs on another machine and poof I could watch the movie. After I got around to replacing the bad hardware, the DVD would play again.

The focus on media quality was far more appropriate in the days before TY developed reliable CD-R media. Unfortunately, years after recordable drives were developed.

The biggest brightspot for the consumer is that the drives which figure frequently in the drive/media incompatibility pairs are not used by computer manufacturers in their systems. Increasingly these problems are being limited to people who "roll their own" systems or upgrade older systems.

PC users have been making bad technical judgements since the 8088 days.

Many market leading products were technically inferior and users with problems frequently blamed anything but their hardware. The number of problem complaints received by Telcos about their lines when users had problems with their Hayes modems was enormous. The top-selling Hayes Smartmodem was intolerant of line noise within the accepted specifications. There were much better modems available but they came in plastic cases and lacked the Hayes AT dialer commands. It took many years for Hayes to fold, and it was not the product quality which caused their demise.

I am burning fewer CMC disks because my 18x drives will burn Verbatims for me at 18x - without error. But this too runs counter to the recommendations of owners of other drives on this forum.

[oldandinthe way]

Orsetto

I looked at your computer details and would definitely recommend that you only burn TY media.

All of your equipment appears to wear the brands of companies who figure in drive/media incompatibility pairs.

You are part of a minority of users who are poorly served by the current retail situation.

[OneSickPup]

I agree with everything lordsmurf said except.....

CMC and RITEK have been consistently unreliable media since they first started producing blank DVDs.

I refuse to buy Ritek media on principle alone. Their 16x media may be decent but after the luck I had trying to use G04 I won't even bother to try it. I do agree with Gen-An on this statement:

I would have to disagree with this. CMC MAG.AE1 and CMC MAG.AM3 are decent MIDs.

CMC 8x media (AE1 and E01) was decent media if you avoided B grade housebrand crap. 16x AM3 falls into this category for me also, again as long as B grade stuff is avoided. Now I wil say that 16x CMC MAG.M01 is
HIGHLY VARIABLE and totally deserving of a crap status. That stuff is variable no matter the brand. IMO of course.

[OneSickPup]

Orsetto

I looked at your computer details and would definitely recommend that you only burn TY media.

All of your equipment appears to wear the brands of companies who figure in drive/media incompatibility pairs.

You are part of a minority of users who are poorly served by the current retail situation.

Nothing personal oldandinthe way but I find myself disagreeing with you quite often. What is the basis of your comment above? The Pioneer 111? Do you own one of these? Of all the drives I've purchased over the last 5 years I'd have to rate my 111's near the top of the list.

[lordsmurf]

Inadequate testing of many drives with large number of available media is a common problem recognized by the optical storage industry leading to significant compatibility problems between drives and media. See the reports of the OSTA compatibility committee.

OSTA and NIST see many problems, but many of them go back to the discs themselves, blame cannot be shuffled onto the drives as easily as you like to think.

It is now several years since CMC has become a dominant manufacturer. There has been no consumer uproar.

You do not seem to understand the consumer psyche whatsoever. For starters, most of them don't know who to complaint to. Many of them do not even know that they should complain, with some ridiculous idea that "anything made at home must look worse than a store-bought disc". Many more complain to company 1-800 numbers, but are diverted to black holes of "customer service" in places in India.

Even on this forum most of the media complaints are "can't burn". If you can't burn it it won't go bad.

Look again. Most complaints are "my discs freezes".

In my experience branded CMC media - HP, TDK, Imation etc is consistant in quality. House brand CMC media - Staples, Dynex, Windata shows physical flaws with frequency.

TDK media is one of the worst offenders in terms of crappy CMC discs. Maxell and HP are too. You probably don't burn enough discs to actually see what's really going on out there. Burn 10,000 discs and get back to me on that.

I can't sucessfully burn DVDs with physical flaws with my modern drives, and If I can't burn a DVD I actually look at it, I can almost always see the flaw - coating unevenness, scratches.

At this point, you're either lying or you're careless, and I don't care which one it is. Many discs that "burn okay" have errors that are invisible to the naked eye. Discs with physical defects burn more often than they should -- this includes Pioneer, Samsung and even your beloved LG drives.

Sure there is crap media, but in my experience most of it gets caught before the product ships in a name brand spindle.

Give the millions of complaints online, this is obviously not true at all.

The VSO study is not representative of media quality, it is representative of drive/media compatibility. Some drives clearly cannot burn some brands of media. Some drives can burn just about any media.

No, it does not succeed at that either. I can make an "okay burn" of Taiyo Yuden media in my BTC drive, but the actual accessibility of the data is nil. None, not a damned thing can be read back off of those discs. Sure, it "burned okay" and the drive was "compatible" with the disc, but it's still a coaster.

Marginal burns occur with some drive/media combinations and these lead to early failures and some interchangeability problems.

Is this even English?

I don't verify burns any more unless I am burning while performing competing tasks.

"Verification" is software often fails anyway. Waste of time.

Why - no errors. For the past 18 months or more, I haven't had a DVD refuse to read in my hardware unless the equipment was failing (with the exception of 4x prodisc which was being dumped when I bought it).

I use good media. I don't have problems either. Only when testing media (burning crap I would never use for myself or the office) do I run across awful media. But I expect it.

I replaced the failing hardware and poof my DVDs read again. Or I copied the bad DVDs on another machine and poof I could watch the movie. After I got around to replacing the bad hardware, the DVD would play again.

Finally, something that is correct in here. Most of those stupid "my data disappeared" complaints are for this very reason. These people have dodgy hardware reading the discs.

The biggest brightspot for the consumer is that the drives which figure frequently in the drive/media incompatibility pairs are not used by computer manufacturers in their systems. Increasingly these problems are being limited to people who "roll their own" systems or upgrade older systems.

Baloney. I find the worst drives are the ones being dumped by OEMs. Dell, for example, always seems to find the crappiest drives (even more than the drive would be normally). HP, Toshiba and several others are the same way. The LG OEM drives from Dell have got the be the worst crap ever.

I am burning fewer CMC disks because my 18x drives will burn Verbatims for me at 18x - without error. But this too runs counter to the recommendations of owners of other drives on this forum.

Good luck with that. 18x MCC03RG20 and MCC004 burns tend to be pretty well craptastic. You're not supposed to (allowed to) burn faster than the disc rating, except in rare cases (12x on an 8x YUDEN000T02, for example). The max speed for these discs -- on ANY DRIVE -- or ANY 16x media, for that matter -- is suggested as 12x

Sorry, oldandinthe way, but some of your information is just wrong. If not wrong, it's interpreted pretty badly. Some really odd conclusions being made in there.

[oldandinthe way]

Well Lord Smurf we appear to disagree on almost everything.

My data disappeared may be the most important complaint but it is not the most frequent.

I don't burn 10,000 disks but I do burn thousands.

Verification is software. The only recognized way to determine a successful burn is to read the data on the system it is burned on. And it guarantees nothing other than the data could be read on the system it was burned on.

Dodgy hardware creates not only the inability to read properly burned disks, but the inability to properly burn adequate media. And the quickest path to dodgy burners is bad firmware - out of date, absent or wrong write strategies. Writing media with the wrong write strategy, or the default write strategy results in less than quality burns.

One of the reasons for the so-called counterfeit media sold by some vendors is the fact that they can't get the drive manufacturer to incorporate a proper write strategy for their mediaIDs. This is because drive makers don't bother to update firmware in all of their drives, or any of their drives, or don't feel the need to test or otherwise accommodate some vendors.

OSTA and NIST list need for firmware updates along with media quality and adequate testing of drive/pairs to insure compatibility. Given the fact they they too had been mediacentric this represents a major increase in their understanding which has not yet trickled down to you.

In your entire screed I can agree with only one thing - Dell ships dodgy hardware. Dell has a long history of buying the cheapest crap available on any given day. Since they budget more than other manufacturers on warranty and support and charge the consumer more, they can tolerate the low quality. And PC owners being what they are their reputation does not suffer. As for Dell's LG drives, they differ from other LG drives in the fact that the firmware is Dell's responsibility. (LG does not distribute or update firmware for OEM drives). If these drives are crap it is likely to be Dell's fault. Just as SONY rebadged Lite-On drives underperform the Lite-On models.

As for consumer psychology, the drive owner who has just finished his first 50 disk spindle of 4x media and buys a spindle of any brand of 16x media, is likely to blame the maker of the media when his burns fail. It never enters his mind that his $250 or higher, 4 year old piece of hardware is to blame. It has to be the $12.95 on sale media. But fortunately there aren't millions of him to complain. The consumer often fields invested in his hardware decisions, and will choose any available alternative villain. We all know people who research their electronics purchases on then buy an inferior product. Nothing can shake them from their faith in their decision. Unlike the folks on this forum they waste little thought on their media purchases and surprisingly enough the masses do not have disastrous results.

[orsetto]

jman98:

Verbatim still uses MCC made media. Note the difference - same letters but VERY DIFFERENT order. MCC is Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation. CMC is another company.

Sorry, but this is an extremely rare case (perhaps the only one) where the ID codes are really sort of meaningless as far as estimating compatability. Verbatim now has both CMC and ProDisc making discs for them, under their contract they have both firms IDing the discs with MCC codes. It doesn't mean jack: these are no longer technically "MCC" disks. The ProDisc variants have been reported as very spotty and inconsistent, and the CMC variants on retail shelves use a wholesale revision to the traditional MCC dye formula which make them useless on most burners over a year old. Supposedly MCC does quality control its submanufacturers, and I gather if you have a drive that doesn't choke on them the CMC Verbatims should be considered top-shelf. But if you CAN'T use them, it doesn't matter how good they are.

oldandinthe way:

As for consumer psychology, the drive owner who has just finished his first 50 disk spindle of 4x media and buys a spindle of any brand of 16x media, is likely to blame the maker of the media when his burns fail. It never enters his mind that his $250 or higher, 4 year old piece of hardware is to blame. It has to be the $12.95 on sale media. But fortunately there aren't millions of him to complain. The consumer often fields invested in his hardware decisions, and will choose any available alternative villain. We all know people who research their electronics purchases on then buy an inferior product. Nothing can shake them from their faith in their decision. Unlike the folks on this forum they waste little thought on their media purchases and surprisingly enough the masses do not have disastrous results.

This has been your primary argument for as long as I've been reading your posts. You make a good point but you miss the big picture: there is no reason, WHATSOEVER, why a perfectly-good two year old Pioneer DVD Recorder with Hard Drive that cost $350-500 or an Apple Mac Mini should be rendered useless simply because media mfrs can't be bothered to stick with the pre-existing, consistent, largely-compatible dyes that worked. Where is the logic in that scenario? These are not typical generic PC towers which can have dirt-cheap new burners swapped in and out at will. These are units with EMBEDDED, largely non-user-replaceable burners, which are installed that way because of DRM issues or other reasons. These machines were purchased with an expectation they would be useful until they mechanically failed. But because of whims of media mfrs, they are obsoleted almost immediately. This is not only consumer-hostile, its plain idiotic: they would sell more media to more people if it was standardized. In essence, you are saying consumers are stupid because they refuse to buy a new $300 recorder or $900 computer every six months. And for that matter, even if self-service were possible in every device, why the hell should your average Joe be forced to screw around and upgrade his burner constantly? That's like saying Jane Doe should be required to upgrade the fuel injectors in her Chevy Malibu every 6 months because the oil companies can't make a consistently compatible gasoline. C'mon!

And don't forget, in the USA we are *locked out* of buying newer DVD/HDD recorders due the the botched ATSC transition and our mass reliance on Cable/Satellite TiVO boxes. Those of us with DVD/HDD units we enjoy using are trapped with no upgrade path: even if we could afford to dump everything we own every year like you're suggesting, replacement recorders are no longer available. The current media situation is absolutely intolerable for users of DVD/HDD recorders- there are no standards at all. And this has NOTHING to do with a transition from 4x media to 8x to 16x: fifteen months ago, when TDK and Verbatim/MCC and Sony still had a firm grasp on their own factories their existing 16x media largely worked across the board, even on older 4x burners. Only since the switchover last year to OEM sub-contractors making crap discs for all, we have this problem. It defies logic.

[lordsmurf]

It doesn't mean jack: these are no longer technically "MCC" disks. The ProDisc variants have been reported as very spotty and inconsistent, and the CMC variants on retail shelves use a wholesale revision to the traditional MCC dye formula which make them useless on most burners over a year old. Supposedly MCC does quality control its submanufacturers, .

MCC media is still MCC media.

In was either 2003 or 2004 that Mitsubishi forged some sort of alliance with Prodisc, CMC Magnetics and Moser Baur to get them "up to speed" on good manufacturer processes. There was a very long period there were Prodisc's own media was equal to MCC quality, because they ran Prodisc to MCC specs. CMC had a few AE1 discs that were decent, but that was very short-lived. MBI had some really nice MBI01RG40 discs, based off MCC specs.

MCC then shifted all single-layer production to these plants. MCC has on-site personnel monitoring and overseeing everything, and the entire process is using MCC specs and materials. It might be made in a building owned by CMC or whoever, but it's still MCC media. The real estate rented has little to do with the product being created.

I've heard you say a few times that "MCC re-did it's dye" but I've heard no such thing. Their patented metal AZO dye is the same as it's always been.

The ONLY bad MCC I've had in the past ... well... ever.... was a recent 50-pack where about 10-15 discs from the middle of the spindle had some bubbles in the dye. It's a pretty rare error, I've only seen something like this once or twice in the past (from other makers).

These rumors about CMC-made or Prodisc-made or India-made discs are mostly rumor born from the same dorks who sit around PIF-testing discs all day long. Verbatim will usually own up to any mistakes or problems, and they've consistently denied several claims in the past year.

Unlike other companies, MCC goes to great lengths to ensure us a good product.
So let's give credit where it's due.

[orsetto]

All due respect, LordSmurf (and you're due plenty), but CMC did make *some* alteration in a huge run of Verbatim + and - R media they released last year, and it still crowds store shelves. Everything Verbatim that is marked MAP6 or PAP6 on the disc hubs is useless to us on the large number of Mac Minis and laptops deployed in the firm I work for. They are useless to me on my personal collection of several Pioneer & JVC DVD recorders and Macs with Superdrives. The ONLY burner I own that will touch these is the Pioneer 112 installed in an old WinXP tower I reserve for making disc backups. And I am not alone: there is an enormous number of complaints about these MAP6/MAM6 discs. The fact that Verbatim gets away with blowing everyone off on it means nothing, the problem still exists. It has been said the problem is not "widespread" since these discs were only put out by one particular CMC factory. BS. That "one factory" supplied the entire US market last year. Good luck finding a spindle that isn't MAP6/PAP6.

I have repeatedly stated that those who *can* burn these discs find them to be top-quality and equal to the earlier "non-CMC-6" discs. I have no beef in theory with MCC subcontracting to Satan if they want to, IF the subcontractor maintains the compatibility that was the hallmark of Verbatim. That compatibility is now broken for a number of folks like me. And it sucks: bigtime. LS, you yourself have expressed repeated reservations about TY media, which is pretty much now the only alternative left with Verbatim's previous virtues of burn quality and compatibility with most burners. Much as I like TY and have had mostly positive experiences, they do fail to play in some DVD players and they have had mechanical quality control issues lately (disc halves separating as I lift them from the spindle). It is also damned inconvenient that they're only available online. Verbatim made a nice retail alternative of equal or better quality, until they changed. In desperation I have been stocking up on Sony MIT DVD-R, compatibility has been similar to MCC and TY so far but it too will soon be gone leaving only the inferior Sony Malaysia product. (While we're at it, what's with this "everything goes down the toilet in India or Malaysia" nonsense? Assuming these factories are all robotic and idiot-proof, why should it matter who makes what where? But it does...)

It is far preferable to have a market with real choices. And again, I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation of why these discs are changing. Once speed ratings got up to 16x, everything should have stabilized, and it did for awhile. The original 16x discs usually worked in most burners, and if say Sony didn't you could try Verbatim or TDK: at least 2 of the three brands would work. Now, forget it: same 16x speed rating, but OEM subcontracting and "minor" changes have blown it all to hell. The end result, compatibility, is what matters to me. You can tell me a million times that MCC inspectors are standing over their CMC operators with a whip and a microscope, monitoring every step in the process of making the "new" Verbatims: it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. I don't really care if *your* devices don't have issues with 'em,*mine do*: almost a hundred between home and office.

Something economic is behind these changes: all the mfrs are cutting corners somewhere and relying on ever-increasing media compensation strategies in the newest burners to cover their asses. Once TY follows this path, and they will, we'll be able to build a 51st state out of discarded dvd recorders.

[Gen-An]

Orsetto, I haven't run into many of the PAP6 MCC004 media in the US. I had one spindle that was far from horrible, and my newest MCC004 media in the new packaging is PAPA. All that forth letter means is the building the discs were made in. CMC's building 6 has been making media for years; I have some MCC003 that is PAH6 and is the best I've ever used.

[lordsmurf]

I have PAPA and MAP6 discs both (plus some others). No problems. That list of devices includes recorders and drives from 2002 up to the present. There's nothing different about 16x now than there was in early times.

The problem of discount-grade Macs and laptops having problems is actually not all that uncommon, especially if everything is stocked with OEM drives. For a number of years, there really were no laptop drives. In the past 18 months, I've carefully studied laptop burning, and witnessed a pretty crappy general experience for most folks. Apple-stocked drives (desktops especially) aren't all that wonderful either, often using beta-grade firmwares.

I think you've got a hardware issue (yes, a widespread one) that is the true cause to your misery. Consider ripping those drives out and flashing in a DOS/Windows environment, if possible.

[Gen-An]

@lordsmurf

I still find it hilarious that anyone with as much interest in optical media as you has the audacity to call anyone a "dork." You wrote the digitalfaq. Ask an average person what he/she thinks of anyone who goes into that much detail about blank discs and what word do you think they'll use? You get two guesses, both are four letters, one starting with an "n" and the other a "g." Or maybe a third, starting with a "d."

[lordsmurf]

There's a big difference between people that use knowledge (i.e., educating others), and people that "play around" with it (i.e., testing discs as a hobby) -- especially when the "knowledge" they play with is a wee bit shifted from reality (i.e., the ridiculous worship of PIF scanning as a measure of "true quality"). A "dork" implies some level of stupidity about a topic, in addition to any "un-coolness" of the topic at hand. As far as what sites I "write", some of you guys don't know as much as you think you do. The information you refer to is a collaborative effort from a number of individuals, and has been for many years now.

[Gen-An]

Did someone doing PIF/PIE testing cause you or your family some bodily injury or something? Calm down dude, it's a harmless hobby. There are far worse things people could be doing than CD-Speed tests.

[lordsmurf]

Is it really harmless? When that is the "proof" used to advise consumers to buy crap like CMC and RITEK, think of the people it harms. What about all those people who buy those discs thinking they're good, only to end up with wasted money and (if they did not test after burning) lost data or memories? When it comes to most "media testers" and those who would listen to them, it's really a case of the blind leading the blind. They do a lot of harm, as far as I'm concerned.

There is certainly some value from this type of testing, but only when considered as a small part of a bigger picture. And all things considered -- ALL THINGS -- buying CMC (HP branded or otherwise) is not a smart choice, if you actually value the data being put onto the media.

[OneSickPup]

There's a big difference between people that use knowledge (i.e., educating others), and people that "play around" with it (i.e., testing discs as a hobby) -- especially when the "knowledge" they play with is a wee bit shifted from reality (i.e., the ridiculous worship of PIF scanning as a measure of "true quality"). A "dork" implies some level of stupidity about a topic, in addition to any "un-coolness" of the topic at hand. As far as what sites I "write", some of you guys don't know as much as you think you do. The information you refer to is a collaborative effort from a number of individuals, and has been for many years now.

Is it really harmless? When that is the "proof" used to advise consumers to buy crap like CMC and RITEK, think of the people it harms. What about all those people who buy those discs thinking they're good, only to end up with wasted money and (if they did not test after burning) lost data or memories? When it comes to most "media testers" and those who would listen to them, it's really a case of the blind leading the blind. They do a lot of harm, as far as I'm concerned.

There is certainly some value from this type of testing, but only when considered as a small part of a bigger picture. And all things considered -- ALL THINGS -- buying CMC (HP branded or otherwise) is not a smart choice, if you actually value the data being put onto the media.

I'm not exactly sure who was the target for your comments but IF they were intended for me then these comments are applicable:

1. Every Videohelp Forum member is entitled to his/her opinion regardless of what basis the opinion is derived. That applies to you, me, everybody.

2. After quickly re-reading this thread I did not find any reference to PIE/PIF testing referred to before you brought it up. Furthermore, referring to specific CMC media types as decent is a far cry from endorsing it's purchase.

3. How dare you assert that your biased, opinionated and arrogant responses are any more believable or credible than anyone else's. I don't know your credentials and care even less. At the same time, you don't know mine, oldandinthe way's, budz's or Gen-An's either for example. Your tone and lack of respect for other posters long ago cost you my respect. Keep in context that is My Opinion.

[lordsmurf]

I'm simply tired of dealing with stupid people.

Time has taught me that coming into a conversation with all this "I respect your opinion" political correctness crap doesn't work. People need to raw truth, not a bunch of sugar-coated crap based off foo-foo information.

In this conversation, the fact is you have countless valid complaints about the quality of CMC media, and to pretend otherwise is to bury your head in the sand. Note the word "valid" -- meaning the discs proven to be unreliable by any number of tests under controlled condition. Unlike "my data disappeared" bullshit (99% of which comes with zero evidence and zero reproduction of the results), you can pretty easily re-create the problems of shoddy CMC burns.

To advise somebody that CMC is "good" or even "decent" is misleading and careless as far as I'm concerned. It's is "unreliable". Nothing more, nothing less.

oldandintheway is really the only person I'm disagreeing with, by the way. His information is consistently in left field, and very hazardous for newbies. The whole "just buy a good drive and any disc will work" stuff is simply not true. I have nothing against anybody else here.

[SCDVD]

When you smear butt butter on a clear plastic disc to prove how good you are at burning media, be sure to strain the dingle berries out first. If you don't they fly off and get all over the inside of your burner.