I am quite frustrated and tired; I've trialled and error'd so many settings and would truly appreciate any input and advice.
My short film was shot:
16x9
24pA
Output Adobe Premiere Pro:
AVI(DV) file, ~60min, 12GB (w/ uncompressed audio)
## ISSUE 1
So I input this into CinemaCraft Encoder and am able to come out with usable MPV+WAV files ONLY if I use one of the default templates,... I'm able to take these and "combine" (mux?) them in IFOedit and work my way into creating an ISO from there...
BUT my problem is that the outputted files only add up to 2.5 GB (and I want to output to DVD and allow it to fill up all 4.7 GB of the disc!)... (The ISO only weighs in at 2.5 GB)...
So I tried changing the FILE SIZE in CCE and it automatically changes the bit rate too... Even if I am well UNDER the maximum bitrate for DVD output (which is 9.8ish?), when I go and try to mux the MPV/WAV files in IFOedit, I get an error saying it is too high and it quits.
What should I do? Can anyone volunteer a custom template or guide me through the settings (I want to get the highest quality possible by filling up all of the DVD, not just a good half of it)...
## ISSUE 2
My second, albeit less important is that I'm getting "streaking" whenever there is motion... Like choppiness (not in the framerate but in the image and motion itself, wherever things move it clips/chops/streaks)...
(My disclaimer: I have spent so many hours googling, reading doom9 and videohelp guides and forums... I'm just totally wasted with this; I haven't been able to accomplish anything meaningful myself, so I apologize).
Thanks so much in advance!
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How long is your video ? Maximum bitrate for DVD is 10800 kbps, including audio, so the maximum video bitrate is 9800 kbps. However, if you use uncompressed PCM (WAV) audio then your video must be substantially less than 9800, as the audio alone will be 1536 kbps. 10800 - 1536 = 9264 kbps (maximum). You also don't say if you are encoding CBR, CQ or VBR.
However, if you encode using Constant Quality is will vary the bitrate based on what is required to maintain the quality, which could mean a smaller file size at the end. If the quality is the same as you would have got from doing a CBR encode at a high bitrate then who cares. File size is not the issue, quality is. If you get the same quality in a smaller file size you lose nothing.
The streaking sounds like interlacing, which will be visible on a PC (progressive display with no smart deinterlacing hardware) but should not be visible on a TV. If it is visible on a TV then you have done something wrong - either mixed up the field order or deinterlaced badly before encoding.Read my blog here.
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Thank you so much for you reply. Your bitrate vs. filesize helps clear up a lot of questions...
So I went back and encoded a fresh new file in CCE with the settings:
MPEG2 (DVD)
Multipass CBR (3 pass)
Audio (wave, or PCM? w/ filesize=597,400 kB)
BITRATE = 9,200 kbits/second (as you said)
file size = 3,578,249 kB
framerate = 29.97
pulldown = 2:3
It encoded in CCE just fine.
Then I went to IFOedit and clicked DVD author > Author New DVD
Selected the video file (.mpv) and selected the audio file (.wav) and clicked OK to multiplex them. Then I got the following error: TOO MANY FRAME DROPS! (screenshot attached)... In the log window I get: "Computed program mux rate exceeds DVD spec!"
If I add up the bitrates, according to the log, I get 9,200,000(bps)+196,608(bps)=9,396,608
What am I doing wrong?? Is there something else that has to be added (save the bitrates for just audio+video?)
NOTE: If I try Rejig (instead of IFOedit), Rejig > DVD Author > exact same menu as the IFOedit menu; Rejig allows me to multiplex the above files and does not have a log (or warnings or errors)... I then create an ISO in IFOedit; load it up in dvdShrink (VLC won't play it past the first 30 seconds or so), the audio is horrible (90% static and loud rubbish overlaying the actual audio sound/track)... Eh??
Thanks again,
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I have just checked my last post and my numbers, and I have mislead you. The maximum total combined bitrate is 10080 (a typo in the original post that I carried into my calculations). Subtract from that your PCM audio bitrate of 1536 kbps leaves you a video bitrate of 8540 kbps.
Something else you may want to consider - the reflective properties of burned DVDs vary, and are generally lower than those of commercial discs. Some players may well have issues trying to read the full bitrate from burned discs. Most suggest you keep the total bitrate substantially lower that the spec maximum. Some err of the very conservative side, and I have seen recommendations here that the total not exceed a number as low as 8700 kbps (combined audio and video). Personally, I shoot for a total bitrate of around 9600 - 9700 kbps, and have never hit trouble.
I also notice you are using multi-pass CBR. Can I suggest to you that that is a complete waste of time ? CBR is exactly that - a Constant BitRate. Doing a 3 pass CBR takes three times as long as a single pass CBR, but does very little, if anything at all, to improve the quality. If you were doing a VBR encode then I'd say OK, but a CBR encode ? Not worth the time.
Other suggestions for consideration
1. Encode the audio as AC3 at 448 kbps. You will be hard pressed to detect any difference between that and the PCM original at that bitrate, but you could then use the video you have just encoded at 9200 kbps.
2. Encode the video at 8500 and see how the quality looks.Read my blog here.
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Awesome! Finally results!
I. (Video = 9,200 kb/second 1-Pass CBR in CCE, muxed in IFOedit with the audio AC3 448 bitrate)
II. (Video = 8,500 kb/second 1-Pass CBR in CCE, muxed in IFOedit with the audio AC3 448 bitrate)
I authored both to ISO format in IFOedit and they were playable in VLC! I think 9,200 looked better than 8,500, but I'm still not as happy with the results as I'd like to be (on this topic, please read on
Some additional issues if you don't mind clarifying:
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1. CBR vs. VBR
OK so I understand what you're saying about not doing multiple passes CBR.
But I'm noticing some artifacts or remnants and pixelization during some motion-filled scenes (and even some relatively-still scenes)..: Say I want to do multiple passes VBR to try to fix this and get a higher quality for those scenes... It's now no longer as simple as just putting in 9,200 for my bitrate... Now I have to deal with Avg/Min/Max...
Max would be 9,200, but how would I deal with Avg and Min? For highest quality couldn't I put them all as 9,200? What is ideal here?
For motion-detection of "complexity of scene," should I mess with that? I have lots of cross-fades, some panning and motion shots, lots of quick sporadic cuts, etc... Should I do it for the whole film and move the slider from "plain or flat" to complicated?
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2. BITRATES
So I understand:
Wave (or PCM) = 1536
AC3 = ?? (whatever I encode it as, correct? in this case, as you suggested 448?)
Specifically in this case, I did 9200 (VIDEO) + 448 (AC3 AUDIO) for a final bitrate = 9648, exactly in your sweetspot of being between 9600-9700? ALSO is there any overhead or additional bitrates that I must factor in (because the IFOedit log always shows a higher estimation that what I get just adding Video+Audio bitrates)...
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3. FRAMERATE
I shot in 24pA mode. So what framerate should I use when encoding in CCE for output to DVD? I did some research and got:
(a) "hard telecine" = 24p[A??] footage --> "hard-coded" to 29.976
versus
(b) "soft telecine" = 24p[A??] footage --> "soft-coded via flags" to remain at 23.976 for the actual DVD player to interpret (resulting in a higher quality 480p picture)...
So with that, whether it is right or not, I'm hoping you can tell me. If it is right, the best choice seems to be to "soft telecine" and choose to keep the framerate at 23.976? How do I ensure the flags are there? Or am I getting ahead of myself?
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4. PULLDOWN
I've researched on several occasions but never really understood. I guess I just want to know which I should pick for my specific case: 2:3, 3:2, inverse 3:2 ?? (CCE automatically chooses 2:3 for me)
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5. INTERLACING
My issue is resolved. "streaking sounds like interlacing, which will be visible on a PC (progressive display with no smart deinterlacing hardware) but should not be visible on a TV." I even found that for playback, VLC has a right-click feature to remove interlacing (works quite well for computer viewing)...
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6. AUDIO
I did the audio not in CCE but separately in ffmpeggui. My question is: "is using this third additional program detrimental at all in terms of audio/video sync or quality or etc.?).
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Sorry if all this seems so elementary;
and once again, thank you so much. Things are finally starting to fall in place! -
Originally Posted by sunsetblvd
Originally Posted by sunsetblvd
Originally Posted by sunsetblvd
Originally Posted by sunsetblvd
Short answer : let CCE add pulldown during encoding. 2:3 is fine.
Originally Posted by sunsetblvd
Originally Posted by sunsetblvd
Originally Posted by sunsetblvdRead my blog here.
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Originally Posted by guns1inger
Looking back at the original post I see you say the rendered film was ~60min and ~12G in size. These numbers fit with a film that's 30i, not 24p. The camera probably (I didn't see mention of what the camera was -- I believe this is how a DVX-100 would do it) stored the video on tape as interlaced (applying a tele-cine to get it from the 24p source) and an inverse to regenerate the 24p on capture, if captured correctly. Is it possible that you've been dealing with interlaced footage the whole time?
Steve. -
sundetblvd wrote:
But I'm noticing some artifacts or remnants and pixelization during some motion-filled scenes (and even some relatively-still scenes)..: Say I want to do multiple passes VBR to try to fix this and get a higher quality for those scenes... It's now no longer as simple as just putting in 9,200 for my bitrate... Now I have to deal with Avg/Min/Max...
MPEG default:
08 16 19 22 26 27 29 34-----16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
16 16 22 24 27 29 34 37-----17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
19 22 26 27 29 34 34 38-----18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
22 22 26 27 29 34 37 40-----19 20 21 22 23 24 26 27
22 26 27 29 32 35 40 48-----20 21 22 23 25 26 27 28
26 27 29 32 35 40 48 58-----21 22 23 24 26 27 28 30
26 27 29 34 38 46 56 69-----22 23 24 26 27 28 30 31
27 29 35 38 46 56 69 83-----23 24 25 27 28 30 31 33
FOX 1:
08 08 09 11 13 13 14 17-----08 08 08 09 09 09 09 10
08 08 11 12 13 14 17 18-----08 08 09 09 09 09 10 10
09 11 13 13 14 17 17 16-----08 09 09 09 09 10 10 10
11 11 13 13 13 17 18 20-----09 09 09 09 10 10 10 10
11 13 13 13 16 17 20 24-----09 09 09 10 10 10 10 11
13 13 13 16 17 20 24 29-----09 09 10 10 10 10 11 11
13 12 13 17 19 23 28 34-----09 10 10 10 10 11 11 11
12 13 17 19 23 28 34 41-----10 10 10 10 11 11 11 11
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Originally Posted by Steve Stepoway
MY WORKFLOW:
CANON XL-2 - shot in 24pA (24p Advanced, for sure) - stored on MiniDV tape
>>
captured in Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0 with 24pA settings, NTSC.
(not sure how if it was interlaced there, but the footage does not appear to strobe or streak when editing or playback in Premiere Pro 2.0... I'm hoping I captured correctly, but there wasn't much flexibility or many "other" options in Premiere; I customized the capture template as 24pA with 16x9 NTSC with the correct audio and everything...)...
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I. (Output from Premiere as AVI DV [so it's compressed at around 12 GB] * This is what I've been using in CCE for now, as to save time, while figuring out the best settings.) **Maybe this is why I'm getting artifacts because CCE is essentially encoding an AVI video file that was already encoded (with the DV codec)???
II. (Out from Premiere as UNCOMPRESSED AVI [around 62 GB]) * Plan on using this to author my DVD as it has the highest quality (is NOT compressed via the DV codec) and will take the longest time...
>>
CCE to encode and shrink down size
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IFOedit > DVD Author tab > mux mpv + ac3 files
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IFOedit > create image ISO
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VLC playback for testing -
Originally Posted by Midzuki
I searched around and tried to find this to no avail: How do I input this FOX 1 matrix (presumably from FOX entertainment for their DVDs?)... I found in CCE > Advanced (Video Settings) > Quantizer Matrices > ??? The matrices...
So do I input this by hand?
Lastly, I read that these may reduce compatibility with players (versus the standard MPEG matrices??) I'm trying to author a standards compliant DVD, if at all possible, so is this still the better path to go, or?
Thanks again, -
Originally Posted by guns1inger
Like I mentioned above, I've been doing this on a AVI file exported/encoded in Adobe Premiere with the DV codec (which explains why it's 12 GB vs. the 62 GB uncompressed)...
Now when I author my final DVD I'll use the big 62 GB uncompressed AVI file. How should I go about to get the highest quality? What should I do? CBR or VBR? Multipass?
The whole bitrate issue is such a setback, but I've been looking around for a comparison of AC3 vs. MP3 at similar bitrates... to no avail as well. Some say it's not worth it to encode AC3 at lower bitrates (192-256 or below?)... If I can figure how how AC3 compares to MP3 at a given bitrate, and if they are similar, I'd be happy with a 256 bitrate AC3 which would allow me to encode a higher bitrate VIDEO, correct?
But then I have to stay within the "sweet spot" you posted. All these restrictions
How should I go about ensuring the highest quality encode, what examples of settings should I use?
Thanks! -
sunsetblvd wrote:
I searched around and tried to find this to no avail: How do I input this FOX 1 matrix (presumably from FOX entertainment for their DVDs?)... I found in CCE > Advanced (Video Settings) > Quantizer Matrices > ??? The matrices...
So do I input this by hand?
Lastly, I read that these may reduce compatibility with players (versus the standard MPEG matrices??)
trouble not only during playback, but already during the authoring process (DVD Lab Pro 2, for instance, has no problem in dealing with 30 frames per GOP, as long as the GOPs are open ones).
I think Fox Entertainment would have already stopped using that matrix if their releases could not be played on the most inflexible NTSC-only SAPs.
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{EDIT} Overdue update:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=759321
P.S.: manono was there! ^_^ -
Originally Posted by sunsetblvdOriginally Posted by Midzuki
I've gotten my sound down from 1.2 GB WAV down to 170 MB AC3 bitrate of 448... But what settings (in addition to the matrix input) should I use for the video; how does one learn to fine-tune?
Thanks again, -
sunsetblvd wrote:
But what settings (in addition to the matrix input) should I use for the video;
however, you also wrote:
BUT my problem is that the outputted files only add up to 2.5 GB (and I want to output to DVD and allow it to fill up all 4.7 GB of the disc!)... (The ISO only weighs in at 2.5 GB)...
how does one learn to fine-tune?
Through personal experience, after all; each case is a case.
Good luck!
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