DVD-R vs DVD+R

[sky captain]

We've been using Lightscribe discs for our video projects to give to clients for a more professional look than the old Sharpie marker.

For a while, we were buying Philips DVD-R (that's minus R). The last ones we bought were HP, which we then noticed were PLUS R. The minus R's were impossible to find.

So, is DVD+R taking over? A couple people told us that the industry is going that way, and that the format is more reliable.

I've been wary of them. Afraid that too many players wouldn't play them. What if I send out my movies to people and then get "It wouldn't play in my machine"?

Thoughts?

[Noahtuck]

I'd worry more about the crap media you listed than + or - formats.
I won't take either of those from friends as i would not waste my time burning anything i want to keep to them.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/media/dvdmedia.htm

Had a friend drop off a 50 pack of Philips DVD-R last week, asked what are these for, he said picked them up and you can use them for anything you want, i said, what do you want on them because i won't use them
Knew before even checking them, CMC MAG. AM3

And if you're worried about using +R's learn how to change the booktype on +R's to DVD-ROM

[FulciLives]

If you must use DVD+R then only do so if you have a way of changing the booktype to -ROM instead of +R ... some DVD burners have that capability (called bitsetting) and some do NOT have that ability.

Even then I think you are better off sticking to Taiyo Yuden DVD-R or Verbatim DVD-R discs.

For a professional look try the 8x or 16x Taiyo Yuden DVD-R discs with the shiny silver plain top. You can then buy a cheap Casio printer that will print simple text onto the DVD surface. It uses thermal ink yet is very cheap. The downside is that you can't do anything more than simple text or perhaps a very very simple logo or graphic but it does add a nice touch to have fresh crip text on the DVD surface that will not rub off. The Casio printer is like $100 give or take. As for the shiny silver plain top Taiyo Yuden discs you can buy those at RIMA.COM

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Here is a link to the Casio CD/DVD printers: CLICK HERE

A friend of mine has the CW-75 and uses it on the Taiyo Yuden DVD-R discs and it looks very nice.

[jman98]

Verbatim makes very high quality DVD media. It is my understanding that they have both DVD-R and DVD+R for Lightscribe available, but I've only seen the +R in BestBuy, which is where I usually get my media. Verbatim makes the best media for Lightscribe in my opinion.

Just earlier this week some guy here posted saying "DVR+R has already lost the format war". I think that once someone has decided to support a certain camp, they have decided that that side has "won", but in reality both will be around for a while. DVD-R discs do appear to be slightly cheaper these days. However, in my opinion DVD-RW and DVD-R DL are both significantly inferior to DVD+RW and DVD+R DL to the point that I just simply won't buy or use any more of the - versions of those discs. I have no preference for DVD-R or DVD+R and just get whatever is cheaper or available.

You might want to learn how to set booktype on +R DVDs to DVD-ROM as some older DVD players crap all over themselves and refuse to play the disc if you don't do this. I refuse to do this as the only people I ever give DVDs to have DVD players that are fairly modern and it's not necessary, but for best compatibility with losers who have sucky old DVD players, you should learn how to do this just to stop these people from complaining that "Your DVD sucks! It won't play at all!" when really the issue is not the DVD but their player. DVD-R discs do not have this problem by the way, so there's no "booktype" for them.

[oldandinthe way]

Its funny at Staples, Officemax, OfficeDepot, BestBuy and Circuit City in New England DVD+R specials sell out way before DVD-R disks.

As for the warning about CMC Mag, AM3 disks - it depends on your drive what your results will be. Using 3 different models of LG drive, I have no problem with any CMC disk. I do booktype.

A look at the media reports indicates that Pioneer drive owners have problems with CMC disks. As do some other brands.

If they work for you - you can ignore the "crap media" harpies. As best as I can tell, the information they provide is based on the experience of older Japanese-badged drives which only work well with Japanese media.

[sky captain]

I'd never heard of setting the booktype before. I found a tutorial that will help me do it with Nero, but it turns out none of my burners allow bitsetting. Oh well.

In the past, we've narrowed our standard DVD-R purchases to Verbatim, Sony, and Memorex. With Lightscribe our local selection limited us to "lesser" brands. Verbatim is hard to come by, unless we seek them out online.

[Noahtuck]

I was wondering when the DVD-R "fanboy" was going to show up :P

And where does this -R is slightly cheaper than +R come from ??
Because everytime i buy media it seem's to be the same price regardless of what format it is

And why would you ever want to buy CMC MAG garbage when you can buy Verbatim or other quality media for the same price ?? & sometimes even cheaper

And i have used CMC MAG garbage with a number of diff. drives, NEC, Plextor, LG, LiteOn, ect. over the years and it alway's seem's to have a problem with playback & lifespan, ect.

You might want to learn how to set booktype on +R DVDs to DVD-ROM as some older DVD players crap all over themselves and refuse to play the disc if you don't do this. I refuse to do this as the only people I ever give DVDs to have DVD players that are fairly modern and it's not necessary, but for best compatibility with losers who have sucky old DVD players, you should learn how to do this just to stop these people from complaining that "Your DVD sucks! It won't play at all!" when really the issue is not the DVD but their player. DVD-R discs do not have this problem by the way, so there's no "booktype" for them.

Are you sure you're not the guy who was going on about +R losing
No Offense but some of that sound's about as dumb as the some of the stuff i remember reading in that thread.....

I have dvd players that are from before + or - R anything, and they play +, - & DL straight up so age really has nothing to do with it.
IF a player will play -R & not +R, it will play +R bitset to DVD-ROM,
I have also seen modern players that will play +R booktyped to DVD-ROM but will not play either - or + straight up. But then have also seen modern player's that will not play any DVDR media no matter what you do.
So i would assume it's more of how well the manufacturer made their player.
From everything i have seen, not just read, actually seen & done, +R booktyped to dvd-rom is a little ahead in overall compatability. And i have supplied literally 1000's & 1000's of dvdr media all over the world.
But nowaday's players should play anything you throw in them but then we are back to manufacturer's being cheap b@$t@rds.

And who has to worry about setting booktype's ? if you have a good drive and/or good firmware, your drive should be setting the booktype to dvd-rom on +r's automatically without even having to think about it 8)

I hate these damn post's asking which is better & cringe everytime i see one and intentionally keep from posting in them

[FulciLives]

My understanding is that most DVD burners will booktype DVD+R DL automatically to -ROM but that this is NOT done automatically when burning DVD+R SL discs.

Also there are DVD burners that can booktype DVD+R DL to -ROM but have no way of changing the booktype of DVD+R SL discs.

In any event can we all agree that if you use DVD+R DL or DVD+R SL that you should booktype to -ROM and if you have a burner that cannot do this then you are better off with DVD-R media.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Dr. DOS]

For Litescribe disks go with Verbatim +R's (MCC) and bookmark 'em to DVD ROM in your burner de jour.

My understanding is that most DVD burners will booktype DVD+R DL automatically to -ROM but that this is NOT done automatically when burning DVD+R SL discs.

John, that is exactly what I have noticed as well. (My BenQ DL drive will not bookmark +R's but my Plextor SL drive will)

In any event can we all agree that if you use DVD+R DL or DVD+R SL that you should booktype to -ROM and if you have a burner that cannot do this then you are better off with DVD-R media.

Agreed. Ran into playback problem with a set top player (JVC) that would only play +R bookmarked disks

[sky captain]

What a hornet's nest I've stirred up.

I never intended to get into "which brand is better," just seeing if using DVD+R is a bad idea.

Now that I find out about booktype setting, I feel like screaming. I don't think there's any way for me to set that with my Lightscribe burners.

A few years ago, we used to get people telling us they couldn't play our DVD-R's. And although they may have had crappy decks, the fault would ultimately lie with us. We're providing materials, so we have to be confident that they will work with the most possible people.

And then my boss goes and buys Philips and HP brands, which apparently everyone here hates.

[FulciLives]

Personally I hate the whole DVD+R format but having said that you should be A-OK for compatability if

1.) You use quality DVD+R discs like Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim
2.) You bookmark to DVD-ROM instead of leaving it as DVD+R

If you can't do both THEN you will run into people that will have compatability issues. However you should be A-OK with DVD-R which doesn't need to be bitset but even then you have to use quality DVD-R media such as Taiyo Yuden or Verbatim.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[overloaded_ide]

And then my boss goes and buys Philips and HP brands, which apparently everyone here hates.

Bosses can be quite ignorant at times. Sorry, I do hope your not reffering to the wife as the boss

Many bosses just cannot see that "Just in time" methode of inventory controll costs them far more paying employees to sweep the floors and look busy when a truck does not arrive on time (often) than what it would actually cost to stock the extra parts to keep employees working!

If you need to send out quality disks on a regaular basis it's just plain ignorant to not stock in quality disks in larger volumes so you have the brands and formats you need on hand ready to use. Running out to a store to get just what ever is in stock is for amatures and home use stuff, not professional businesses!

You should try to make such a point to your boss, but nicely so you keep your job!

A decision on what Brand, Format, etc.. for the best results you need has to be made, and then order in a reasonable large amount of disks to cover the work load and also allough time for a new order to be placed and arrive as needed before you would run out of disks.
At maybe $40/100 or less for disks today there is no reason for any professional business to NOT stock in the needed disks. LiteScribe or such may be a little higher, I never bother with those myself.

Heck I preffer Ty Yuden -R disks Single layer Hub printables myself and just got in 100 for just home use basically. Also 100 Hub Printable CD-R for home use.

Make a decision on what disks are needed for your use then order a bunch!
Rima.com has never let me down and I have been happy with every order, choose a good place to order from then order the disks you need.

[happydog500]

DVD-R sucks for data preservation for three reasons: inferior error correction, inferior ‘wobble’ tracking, and the fact its data writing methods look like an un-needed halfway point between CD-R and DVD+R. The wobble tracking I shall explain first, then the error corrections method, then the specifics of ATIP/pre-pit/ADIP optimum power settings.

For a CD/DVD burner to track where it is on the disc, it uses three things: the ‘wobble’ of the data track (where it actually wobbles back and forth instead of in a straight line) to tell where it is in the track, the position of the track to tell where it is on the disc, and some additional information on the disc to tell where the track (singular, as CDs and DVDs only have one track, and it is written in a concentric spiral) begins and ends.

This additional information on a CD-R is called the ATIP (Absolute Time In Pregroove), which contains how long the track is, where it begins, what the maximum and minimum writing speeds are, what formula dye it uses, who actually made it, optimum power control settings, and error correction data. The ATIP is stored as a frequency modulation in the wobble itself.
However, since the wobble changes subtly to encode data, it is impossible to use with the small size of tracks DVD requires, as electric noise in the laser pickup and wobbles introduced by the electric motor spinning the disc, these could easily be read as frequency changes in the real track itself.

On DVD-R, they tried to solve the problem with something called ‘pre-pits’ where spikes in the amplitude of the wobble appear due to pits fully out of phase with the rest of the track (ie, between two spirals of the track, where there is no data). This can be viewed as a simple improvement over CD-R as it makes it easier to track the wobble (since the wobble is constant except for the easy to detect and remove spikes).

Unfortunately, this method as one flaw: due to electric noise in the laser pickup, it would be very easy to miss the pre-pit (or read one that wasn’t actually there) if the disc were damaged or spun at fast speeds. The time to read a pre-pit is 1T (roughly .0000000038th of a second), which even for a computer can be easy to miss. DVD-R traded hard to track frequency changes for hard to read wobble-encoded data.

On a DVD+R, however, they came up with a much better method. Instead of changing the frequency of the wobble, or causing amplitude spikes in the wobble, they use complete phase changes. Where CD-R’s and DVD-R’s methods make you choose between either easy wobble tracking or easy ATIP reading, DVD+R’s method makes it very easy to track the wobble, and also very easy to encode data into the wobble. DVD+R’s method is called ADIP (ADdress In Pre-groove), which uses a phase change method.

With ADIPs’ phase changes, the direction of the wobble changes and continues on going in the exact opposite direction (ie, counter-clockwise to clockwise, or the reverse). For example, if the wobble was ‘going up’, the phase change causes it to instantly reverse direction start ‘going down’ no matter where it in the wobble cycle. The phase change is very easy to detect, and also continues for a set period (in this case, one 32T section of the track, or 32 times longer than the pre-pit method of DVD-R).

The state of the phase change (clockwise or counter-clockwise) encodes the individual bits in each block In essence, with the phase change method, not only do you have an easy way of tracking the wobble, but you now have an easy way of reading wobble-encoded data.

As I mentioned earlier, this wobble-encoded data includes error correction of wobble-encoded data itself. Error correction is the most important part of media, because if it does not work, then you’ve lost your data, even if there is nothing seriously wrong with the disc.

The DVD-R specification states that for every 192 bits, 48 of them are not protected under any scheme, 24 of them are protected by 24 bits of parity, and the last 56 bits are protected by another 24 bits of parity. This weird (to put it mildly) scheme allows you to easily scramble or lose 25% of the data that is required to read your disk! This information is almost more important than the actual data burned on the disc itself.

The DVD+R specification, however, states that for every 204 bits of information, it is split into four blocks of 52 bits containing 1 (shared among all blocks) sync bit to prevent misreading because of phase changes, 31 bits of data, and a 20 bit parity (that protects all 32 bits).

Now, the third item on the list: how DVD+R discs burn better. As I said earlier, ATIP/pre-pit/ADIP stores information about optimum power control settings. This information is basically formulas stating how much output power is needed, what the laser startup power should be, and other pieces of information you require to properly burn a DVD.

Optimum power control output is dependent on three things: burning speed, laser wavelength, and information given to the drive about the media. DVD-R basically fails on all three accounts because DVD+R simply includes far more information about the media in the ADIP data than DVD-R does in it’s pre-pit data.

DVD+R includes four optimum profiles, one for four major burning speeds (usually 2x, 4x, 6x, and 8x, though this can change as speeds increase). Each of these profiles include optimum power output based on laser wavelength, more precise laser power settings, and other additional information. With this information, any DVD+R burner can far more optimize it’s burning strategy to fit the media than it can with DVD-R, consistently providing better burns.

For comparison, DVD-R includes one profile, optimum power output based for that one profile only and uncalibrated towards what wavelength it is for, less precise laser power settings, and no other additional information. Typically, DVD-R burners have to already know how to burn a certain piece of media (and include this information in their firmwares) before they can properly burn to it. New media often is not properly supported.

In addition to the optimum power control profiles, DVD+R also gives four times more scratch space for the drive to calibrate the laser on; more space can only improve the calibration quality. So, in short, DVD+R media exists to simply produce better burns and protect your data better.

[bbanderic]

The above statement seems to have been copied, at least in part, from the link below:

http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media/

It's actually a good read, not sure how accurate the info is regarding the error correction being much better in DVD+R. But if it's true, it's something to think about.

[bbanderic]

And who has to worry about setting booktype's ? if you have a good drive and/or good firmware, your drive should be setting the booktype to dvd-rom on +r's automatically without even having to think about it

Not all good drives automatically set the booktype on DVD+R SL, I'd be willing to bet most don't without hacked firmware, probably because it's really not needed these days...for the most part, with most manfacturers now supporting both formats. I have an NEC 3520 and Pioneer 111, both excellent burners, neither support bitsetting on SL media but both automatically bitset DVD+R DL.

[VegasBud]

...not sure how accurate the info is regarding the error correction being much better in DVD+R.

It's entirely inaccurate (to be polite). Error correction is handled by ECC blocks, which are the same whether it's a DVD-ROM, DVD-R, or DVD+R, as is clearly spelled out in MMC-4, ecma-349 (for +R), and ecma-359 (for -R).

When the author of that article was asked what specification he was referring to, he said:

I was using the English-afied version someone translated from the official standard, but I can’t seem to find that site now.

[Bjs]

After reading somewhat the information collected and displayed ... there is no winner between either format's , only available choice's which are regulated by market decision's .

As for - vs + , that's a decision for the end user to consider when taking into account such factors as :

Media cross compatability .
Issue's regarding playback on home dvd player's writen to + , rw media .
Backup consol game's are best on + , even rw .
Do you need to refresh data content on disk often .
Do you need sl or dl .
What the burner can use .

We must be in the lucky country here , because verbatim is now a realistic long term product on the shelf's , where tdk once stood superior too all other's ... we all know what's what now ... and I think the local store's have caught on ... they dont want too lose customer's to poor quality good's .

Of course it wasnt that long ago you couldn't trust verbatim either ... atleast they sorted it out .

That mag stuff ... was it absolute s**** stuff ... esspecially those coloured disc's .

As for price difference's , there's only three major influence's ... brand name , sl vs dl , and rw ... - and + dont count for much ... trying to getting hold of - media sometime's can be a lot of fun ... esspecially when a customer walks out with 200+ of the sod's ... hmm ... wonder what he's got planned for the week ... or is that 6 month's supply ...

A small percentage is alway's made by some retailer's who have a grip on a small market where larger profits can be made on lower quality brand's ... such as in villages and small town's where the next major town / city is more than an hour's drive away ... you either wait till you can go ... buy now and hope ... or order online with the added cost of p/h , and hope they dont kick the crap out of it while it's being delivered ... I know , I'm an ex posty ... and they do it all the time .

A keyboard I sell for $13.00 ($2.00 profit) , retails in newsagency for $30.00 ... a mouse for $25.00 (mine is $8.00 , profit $1.50) ... atleast I dont rip people off ... media ... well I dont really keep alot on hand ... 400 at most ... it's usually all gone in 5 day's to customer's ... I make $2.50 per 20 - verbatim stack ... I dont care what they do with it ... frizbee's for all I know .

And as for the link :

http://adterrasperaspera.com/blog/2006/10/30/how-to-choose-cddvd-archival-media/

Some good information , though not entirely correct when it come's down to the reason behind the use of dye's and why it exist's it the first place .

Your as mad as hell to rely on rw media for long term data storage .

Sure , + may have some advantage's ... but considering when I send a disc to a client ... I dont want too hear it wont work ... cause that's annoying ... sure , maybe an odd one or two is fine ... we all get this from time to time ... it's good bussiness too help those who need it ... but it pay's to scan the media before hand ... you can alway's get a dud batch ... this is not a myth , or some kind of banter ... it's a fact .

Having just run a scan on the latest batch of 8x - verbatims here ... unburnt was up and down between 2 and 6 in nero speed tools ... after the burn at 4x ... it's as straight as a pretzel ... without any blimps ... it's convinced me to stay put and wait till blue_ray get's thing's sorted .

Them's hp's are a fun thing to shatter , though their cdr's are top notch ... just cant get hold of the thing's here ... will have to pick them up in bulk at the end of this month ...

-------------

As FulciLives has pointed out : Compatability .

If it's got anything to do with my customer's ... I dont want anything to do with + , dl and rw ... well till hell freeze's , or all the factories producing - go up in a ball of flame's one night ...

Customer's who get caught with the wrong media type can exchange it with me for a small fee ... $5 for every 20 ... I can alway's do with a few hundred coaster's to hang up in my fruit tree's ... we got's feral posum's here ... big one's ... they killed the wheelie bin last week .

It's funny how those who used too dictate use quality media such as "taiyo yuden" , are now including verbatim as a possible choice .

I do alot of support for user's when it come's down to media choice's , but as far as I am concerned , if it's not available in 20% of retail store's ... they can keep it ... it's inpractical to trouble shoot a brand based upon online information ... this can only be done if you physically have it in hand .

There's two thing's I can do without ... bitsetting and lightscribe ... a real waste of time if a customer reports an issue .

Printing ... it's the latest epson everytime for mine ... the customer deserve's quality , including the jacket cover's .

-------------------

Noahtuck

Your a sad sack ... your friend's are atleast thinking of you ... it only bite's when they want something in return ... maybe a couple here or there ... but if 50 turn up , and they want 50 done ... charge them a nominal fee ... it's your equipment their wearing out .

[sky captain]

According to Wikipedia, it's DVD players made prior to mid-2004 that will have problems with DVD+R. Good to know.

Is there a list of book type compatible drives anywhere? When I google the topic, all I find are discussions similar to this one.

Is it possible to do firmware upgrades to the drives I have to make them booktype compatible?

[oldandinthe way]

https://www.videohelp.com/dvdwriters

Shows drives which have booktype/bitsetting

CDfreaks has pointers to firmware patches to enable some drives which do not booktype to booktype.

[jman98]

Are you sure you're not the guy who was going on about +R losing
No Offense but some of that sound's about as dumb as the some of the stuff i remember reading in that thread.....

Yes, I'm sure. By the way, if you had paid attention in school you'd know why "sound's" is not grammatically correct. No offense, but you're a moron. Anyway, most of what you said was rebuked in other posts, so I don't have to go into it.

[lordsmurf]

The following items are all bullshit:
- DVD+R is better than DVD-R; DVD-R is better than DVD+R. What is theory on paper and what actually happens are two different things entirely.
- DVD-R is cheaper than DVD+R; DVD+R is cheaper than DVD-R
- People buy more DVD+R than DVD-R; people buy more DVD-R than DVD+R

May I invite everybody to join me in 2006?

The truth is far less general:
- A few brands have their DVD-R cheaper than their DVD+R. Taiyo Yuden is a prime example. For the most part, if one goes on sale, both go on sale. Regular prices match too.
- DVD-R is still more compatible than DVD+R (even with bitsetting), but it's only by about 5% at most, and is less important than the quality of media.
- Both types of discs sell well when there is a sale. Remember you only see a few packs on a shelf at a time, so one person buying 8 spindles of his favorite type of disc will quickly change shelf stock. Do not be fooled into thinking this means anything.

________________


The entire problem here is HP and Philips media = CMC. Stop using CMC. Use something better. I suggest TAIYO YUDEN DVD+R or VERBATIM DVD-R or SONY DVD-R/DVD+R. Take your pick. Problem solved. If not, buy a new burner, those are good discs.

Good luck.