HDV: Gasping For Breath?

[Specialist]

In my opinion, HDV camcorder sales will drop significantly in the second half of 2007, and drop sharply in 2008. That is only a short 5-year life-span: 2004 -2008.

(Editorial by consultant Tore B. Nordahl)

http://tinyurl.com/ttpgy

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[MozartMan]

Hey "Specialist"

What is your problem with HDV?
What is your agenda?

This is third or fouth "news" you posting here shitting about Sony and HDV and praising Panasonic and AVCHD.
What is your f*&^%&g problem?

BTW, your website SUCKS BIT TIME, was designed by the amateur.

Keep it civil please!

Thanks

/Moderator Offline

[kush]

Not to mention, this shouldn't be here..Should be in General Discussion, or even Off-topic.

[edDV]

Hey "Specialist"

What is your problem with HDV?
What is your agenda?

This is third or fouth "news" you posting here shitting about Sony and HDV and praising Panasonic and AVCHD.
What is your f*&^%&g problem?

BTW, your website SUCKS BIT TIME, was designed by the amateur.

It isn't consumer AVCHD, AVC-Intra/P2 is a higher bitrate editable format targeted at or above HDV. The question is whether it can be developed to a foolproof level and offered at HDV prices any time soon.

[Specialist]

Right.

And none of this is a criticism of Sony. In fact, the editorial predicts Sony will offer its own intraframe codec in 2007:

I predict that Sony will announce a new intra-frame CODEC fitted HD camcorder to compete directly with the Panasonic HPX2000 by NAB-2007.

- Tore B. Nordahl quotation

http://tinyurl.com/ttpgy

This is about progress in designing codecs for editing purposes.

Long GOP codecs are not easily edited.

Some consider them to be "delivery" formats only.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[stretchweider]

HDV R.I.P

[Wile_E]

So does AVC-Intra/P2 preserve each frame like regular DV, or is it still similar to MPEG-2/4 and have GOP? Personally I would like to see a consumer format just like DV, but in High-Definition. Is it that difficult to give consumers a format like that, at a good price? It seems like to me that the industry is purposely giving consumers an inferior format that is highly compressed with LOSSY compression. Mom, Pop, and Grandma may not care, but the rest of us consumers would like a good high-def format that isn't as lossy compressed.

[edDV]

So does AVC-Intra/P2 preserve each frame like regular DV, or is it still similar to MPEG-2/4 and have GOP? Personally I would like to see a consumer format just like DV, but in High-Definition. Is it that difficult to give consumers a format like that, at a good price? It seems like to me that the industry is purposely giving consumers an inferior format that is highly compressed with LOSSY compression. Mom, Pop, and Grandma may not care, but the rest of us consumers would like a good high-def format that isn't as lossy compressed.

The idea is to use only intraframe MPeg4 or short GOPS. Bitrates will be much higher than consumer AVCHD but IMO worth it. Still allows hard disk or flash memory solutions similar to the Panasonic HVX-200.

[Specialist]

So does AVC-Intra/P2 preserve each frame like regular DV, or is it still similar to MPEG-2/4 and have GOP? Personally I would like to see a consumer format just like DV, but in High-Definition. Is it that difficult to give consumers a format like that, at a good price? It seems like to me that the industry is purposely giving consumers an inferior format that is highly compressed with LOSSY compression. Mom, Pop, and Grandma may not care, but the rest of us consumers would like a good high-def format that isn't as lossy compressed.

"AVC-Intra" by Panasonic works like DV and preserves each frame.

Yes, that's correct.

Both DV and AVC-Intra are I-Frame (Intraframe).

So you are working with full frames.

That's a huge advantage for editors.

MPEG-2 HDV, on the other hand, isn't completely I-Frame.

MPEG-2 HDV is "long GOP" -- a hybrid of "interframe" (yuck) and "intraframe" encoding, which means you get I, P, and B frames.

Then there's the consumer AVCHD format.

Unlike "AVC-Intra," the AVCHD format is also "long GOP" like MPEG-2/HDV, but it does offer some advantages such as support for a full 1920 x 1080 raster as opposed to HDV's 1440 x 1080 raster.

Both "AVC-Intra" and AVCHD are H.264-compliant.

Panasonic will initially offer AVCHD to budget consumers and AVC-Intra will be offered to professionals.

But many of us suspect they'll eventually allow the superior "AVC-Intra" codec to be used in sub-$3,000 semi-pro camcorders.

That would be a nice option for people who must do a lot of editing because it should resemble the editing ease we've enjoyed in connection with MiniDV all these years.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[edDV]

Meanwhile, HDV can still be handled in editing by converting it to a "digital intermediate" format like Cineform that is designed for low generation loss and frame edit accuracy at the cost of larger file size.

[pijetro]

Yes, but as much as i love the idea of Intra frame editing, do you personally feel that it's going to be out of reach for us desktop editors??
In specific DVCProHD..Seems like huge amounts of data for semipros....

[edDV]

Yes, but as much as i love the idea of Intra frame editing, do you personally feel that it's going to be out of reach for us desktop editors??
In specific DVCProHD..Seems like huge amounts of data for semipros....

DV format seemed data intensive back in '98 when fast drives were $700 for 9GB but now with faster 300GB drives for $80 the data doesn't seem so huge. Next flash drives will hold an hour of DV. Just a matter of time.

[pijetro]

Yes, but regardless of storage and transfer rates, the CPU power alone to decompress 4:2:2 HD seems astonising...
I mean, even if it becomes reasonable, the average Joe will still need a dedicated Raid Array (separate box?), some sort of interface card (SDI?), and a badass CPU to handle that info..

Any links to people currently using intraframe (HD) editing stations?
I'd like to offer this with my wedding video packages, but need to see potential pitfalls ahead of time..

Thanx...

[Specialist]

Apple Final Cut Pro:

http://tinyurl.com/bp3uw

It supports HDV, XDCAM HD, DVCPRO HD, and uncompressed HD.

System requirements here:

http://tinyurl.com/kp5va

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net