cartoon to dvd help - video included for download

[J. Baker]

I have a test animation that I made and have been trying to get it to dvd with good quality. It looks pretty good once on dvd but there is a interlaced effect around the shoulder and a few other spots when viewing on tv. When viewing on pc it looks fine. I've tried using HC and Procoder Express with 3:2 pulldown and various other settings. When adding blur to it, it looks better but I'm trying to keep detail. This is just a test for a longer animation I plan on making. Anyways, here's the file if anyone wants to try. I've also added a blank audio file just incase you need it for authoring to dvd.

The only thing that has been done to the animation is that it's been resized down from 1440x1080 to 720x480 with VirtualDub's Precise Bilinear for better anti-aliasing. And converted to 23.976 fps, as it was originally 16 fps.

Any suggestions would be great.

DOWNLOAD ANIMATION

[J. Baker]

Well, I see if you pause it and go in slow mode it looks fine on tv. Must be the speed at which the de-interlacer has to run. And with something like this, with sharp edges, it's just going to be noticable. Might just have to blur it a little.

[lordsmurf]

Stop de-interlacing, especially on cartoons. You will only make it look worse that way.

[Bjs]

Actually , using the defaults for bbmpeg for dvd :

Media player ... some noticable shifting
Nero show time ... almost no problem

File was frameserved from vdub directly to bbmpeg .

[Xesdeeni]

I believe the best way of doing this is to leave it as 16 fps, encode it as such, and then use DGPulldown to set your output for 29.97. This will adjust repeat flags in the stream, rather than adjusting the video itself.

However, I'm not absolutely positive that 16 fps can be converted to 29.97 using the flags as they are (or that your MPEG-2 encoder will be happy with 16 fps). If not, then you will have to do it manually. To do this, you need to convert your video to 59.94 progressive fps. Then you separate the fields and throw out half of them. In AVISynth, this is something like (I'm doing this from memory, so this is for illustrative purposes only ):

AVISource("animation.avi")
ChangeFPS(59.94)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

Note that this WILL result in interlace artifacts. This is correct. Alternatively, you can create a progressive version:

AVISource("animation.avi")
ChangeFPS(29.97)

However, even a progressive video shown on an interlaced TV will show interlacing artifacts. Remember that the TV is showing and even field then an odd one then even then odd. So at some point, you'll be seeing an even field from one frame and an odd field from a different frame.

Xesdeeni

[J. Baker]

Stop de-interlacing, especially on cartoons. You will only make it look worse that way.

It never was interlaced. I can only render it as progressive from AnimeStudio.

[J. Baker]

Is it possible to make a 54.94p to 29.97i without throwing away half of the fields/frames? Like evens would be top layer and odds would be bottom layer. I'm not sure if this would help my issue but would like to try something other then pulldown.

[manono]

I think your original idea of converting to 23.976fps and then running pulldown was best. Nothing wrong with running pulldown. Even anime and cartoons (sometimes drawn at 16fps, as well as 8 and 12fps) have pulldown applied after having been converted to 24fps with the addition of dupe frames.

Unless you go back and create your animation at 59.94fps progressive (with no dupe frames), I don't see much benefit in making it at that framerate. If you can do that, there will be a great benefit in the form of much smoother playback (after using some variation of the Xesdeeni script to convert it to 29.97fps interlaced). But even true 29.97fps progressive (no dupes) will offer smoother playback.

I believe the best way of doing this is to leave it as 16 fps, encode it as such, and then use DGPulldown to set your output for 29.97.

Hi Xesdeeni-

The lowest framerate for which DGPulldown can be applied is 2/3 the output framerate, which for NTSC means 19.98fps. And that will mean also duplicating some frames (1 in 4), whereas at the moment he's duplicating 1 in 2. Except for slightly better encoding efficiency, I don't see much benefit to encoding for 19.98fps followed by DGPulldown for 19.98->29.97fps. I do confess, though, that when I encode 16fps silent films for DVD, I do add in dupe frames to make them 20fps, and soft telecine off of that.

[J. Baker]

Animating at 60 fps and converting it to 59.94 is no problem. I just need to know if I can create a true 29.97i from a 59.94p. Are there no scripts or plug-ins that can do this? I don't want to create a 59.94p just to throw away half of the frames like mentioned above.

I was hoping that a true 29.97i would produce a better moving image on tv then a 3:2 pulldown 29.97. The 3:2 method seems to create a slight shifting or something in horizontal lines when viewed on tv. I had never noticed this on regular video before but on a cartoon like I'm trying to create, I find it annoying.

But if there's a way to create true 29.97i from 59.94p, I would like to try this to see if there's any difference. If not, I may have to write my own app to do this.

I just don't see how professional cartoons can use 3:2 pulldown and not show this effect. Unless it has something to do with matrix.

[guns1inger]

You don't use 3:2/2:3 pulldown on 29.97 material. You use it on 23.976 progressive material.

[J. Baker]

You don't use 3:2/2:3 pulldown on 29.97 material. You use it on 23.976 progressive material.

Thanks but I already know that.

[guns1inger]

So why not output 23.976 to begin with ?

[J. Baker]

So why not output 23.976 to begin with ?

I have but like I said above, I get a slight noise or shift in horizontal lines during movement in video. But only on tv, not pc. I had never noticed this before with regular video but I do with the animation that you can download from first post.

That's why I was wondering if I could create a true 29.97i from 59.94p if it would have the same results? Or if it has something to do with the matrix of the dvd? I ask because I have never noticed this in professional cartoons that are on dvd.

[manono]

If you have 59.94fps progressive:

SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

Encode with TFF. That will make it 29.97fps interlaced. Test out the script in VDubMod first, before sending to the encoder, to make sure it's OK.

Or if it has something to do with the matrix of the dvd?

Do you mean the quantisation matrix? I don't think so, but if you do, then use a good matrix, perhaps one used on an anime or cartoon DVD you like. For best quality you should be doing that anyway.

[J. Baker]

Doesn't "SelectEvery(4,0,3)" throw away half of the fields? So the motion would be more like 29.97p instead of 29.97i?

[manono]

No, the motion will be exactly like 29.97fps interlaced, as that's what it is. It's analogous to filming real life movement with an interlaced video camera. If you started with 59.94fps progressive, and tossed out every other frame, then you'd have 29.97fps progressive, and it would play only half as smoothly.

I don't know for sure if you'll like the results any better or if the artifacting you noticed from the original video will be gone. But don't test on the computer. You'll have to test on the TV. One thing's for sure, though, the motion will be real smooooooth.

[J. Baker]

Thanks, I'll give it a try. And it may not help but smooth motion is always nice.

[J. Baker]

Ok, I made a quick 60p animation. Did the script above and encoded with HC but now it definitly has interlace problems. Here's the animation if anyone wants to try. It's 720x480, 60p and already 16-235 but in RGB.

DOWNLOAD - 18MB

[manono]

Hehe, it's supposed to have interlacing "problems". It's interlaced. I said to test it on a TV. If it'll make you feel better, go ahead and make it 29.97fps progressive, either by removing every other frame from a 59.94fps animation, or by creating one from scratch. That first one you made for 24fps, after applying pulldown, after being made into a DVD, and output to a TV, will also be interlaced. That's the nature of the beast. Every NTSC DVD ever made outputs 29.97fps interlaced.

[J. Baker]

Oh, I know that but when I played it with the Nvidia dvd decoder and had it set for combined fields, it still left some interlaced lines. I also then tried importing in in VDub MPEG and deinterlaced it and it had the same results. I could try it on tv but it looks like I'll have the same results on it as well.

[manono]

Hi-

I don't know the NVidia player, and I don't know combined fields, but if it's anything like PowerDVD's Weave Mode, that's a recipe for showing interlacing. You didn't say exactly how you deinterlaced it in VDub-MPEG, so I don't know. Most software DVD players absolutely suck for playing interlaced material, which is why I said you'd have to test on a TV set.

When being viewed on an interlaced CRT tube TV set, unless you somehow managed to get interlacing into the fields (virtually impossible), you won't see any interlacing. A standard TV set plays fields.

But like I said, you can make it 29.97fps progressive (or even 23.976fps with pulldown) and it'll still play more smoothly than just about any hand drawn animation. But I don't know about your original artifacting problem. Good luck.

[J. Baker]

Hi-

I don't know the NVidia player, and I don't know combined fields, but if it's anything like PowerDVD's Weave Mode, that's a recipe for showing interlacing. You didn't say exactly how you deinterlaced it in VDub-MPEG, so I don't know. Most software DVD players absolutely suck for playing interlaced material, which is why I said you'd have to test on a TV set.

When being viewed on an interlaced CRT tube TV set, unless you somehow managed to get interlacing into the fields (virtually impossible), you won't see any interlacing. A standard TV set plays fields.

But like I said, you can make it 29.97fps progressive (or even 23.976fps with pulldown) and it'll still play more smoothly than just about any hand drawn animation. But I don't know about your original artifacting problem. Good luck.

Combine does just like it says. Combines the fields and you shouldn't see any interlacing. But for some reason I can. I also tried VLC and tried it's deinterlacing methods but didn't work. And I used blend in VDub but it still showed interlacing like I said.

Now when you said I may have gotten interlacing into the fields, that made since. As it looks like what has happened. But I did use this script...

AVISource("animation.avi")
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3) #TFF
Weave()

... like you said. So I don't know why it's doing this. Have you downloaded the file and tried it yourself?

Oh and I did convert it to 59.94 from 60 before doing the above script.

[manono]

Hi-

Combine does just like it says. Combines the fields and you shouldn't see any interlacing.

You won't see any interlacing if it's from a progressive source where both fields come from the same point in time. It does, indeed, sound just like PowerDVD's Weave deinterlacer where it just plays the interlaced frames. Your fields come from 2 slightly different points of time, and it's supposed to show interlacing. If I understand what you're saying, it's the same as opening the script in VDubMod and advancing frame by frame. You'll see nothing but one interlaced frame after another. But like I said, you'll see nothing of the sort when it's played on a TV set.

Now when you said I may have gotten interlacing into the fields, that made since.

If you followed that script, the fields themselves aren't interlaced.

Have you downloaded the file and tried it yourself?

I sure did. The only thing I didn't do was to burn a DVD to DVD-RW and play on the TV, because I don't have any DVD-RWs and I don't feel like wasting a DVD -R. I tested the script in VDubMod, played it in Media Player Classic, and made a DVD from it. And it's looks like crap, as I expected it would. You're not seeing interlacing, unless you're loking at whole interlaced frames, but heavily aliased lines caused by interpolation of fields into frames, something lousy deinterlacers will produce.

So, I did this:

AVISource("H:\Test\ani60p.avi")
AssumeFPS(59.94)
SelectEvery(2,0)

That gives me a nice looking 29.97fps progressive video. If you did the whole thing already for 60p, you can use that script to encode for DVD. Otherwise you can make the whole thing (if you like what that script produces) for 30fps and then slow it down to 29.97fps.

[J. Baker]

That's weird because I've used 3:2 pulldown before on animations and it had combing and play fine with those players. I was just hoping to get smoother playback. Thanks for your help.

I will post this on the doom9 forum and see if anyone knows any tricks. If not, I'll have to use the 29.97 progressive or 3:2 pulldown.

[manono]

That's weird because I've used 3:2 pulldown before on animations and it had combing and play fine with those players.

Well, sure. Software DVD players (and just about any DVD player) play progressively encoded material outputting to a progressive display (like a computer monitor or HDTV) just fine. They are flag reading players, and more or less ignore the added duplicate fields. However, if, instead of applying 3:2 pulldown to a progressively encoded 23.976fps animation, you had encoded the pulldown into the video, something called hard telecine - if you had encoded your originally progressive 23.976fps video as interlaced 29.97fps - and then played it in a software DVD player, then you would have seen something very similar to what you saw when playing that script.

When you open a pulled down video in VDubMod, it ignores the pulldown, and all you see is progressive frames. If you were to open the same video in that other VDub variant, VirtualDub-MPEG2, then it can be set up to either ignore the pulldown, like VDubMod, or to show the full 29.97fps interlaced, in which case you'll see 2 of every 5 frames being interlaced.

I will post this on the doom9 forum and see if anyone knows any tricks.

There's at least a fair chance you'll get better advice. Some of those people are the pros of the AviSynth world, whereas I'm just an experienced user. I'll be following your thread there with interest.

[jagabo]

The black outline around your characters is too thin and the video is too sharp. That is why you are getting jaggy, flickery effects "around the shoulder and a few other spots". Some MPEG encoders have a deflicker filter, you can try using that. Preferably, increase the thickness of the black outlines and blur the image a bit.

Smoothness problems from you first video are a result of 16 fps being converted to 23.976 fps by duplicating every other frame, then applying 3:2 pulldown. Render at 23.976 fps and apply 3:2 pulldown. Or, as others have suggested, for the ultimate in smoothness on interlaced devices, render at 59.94 fps and pull out fields with SelectEvery(). But that will never look good on a progressive display.

[J. Baker]

Well thanks for your help again. And I might experiment with bigger outlines to see if there's any difference.