CPRM problem...

[soneman]

I've just bought myself a DVD Recorder a few days ago, this one to be exact:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Funai-DR-B2737-DVD-Recorder-Silver/dp/B000A6STC0

I've already recorded some Analog TV Programmes onto a Maxell branded DVD-RW disc in the Recorder. The resulting disc works fine in my DVD Players, no problem.

The problem I'm having is that I can't play the recorded disc in PowerDVD or rip the disc to my Hard Drive.

This is important to me because of compatibility reasons and also because the plan was to view the currently recorded TV Programmes from the DVD-RW disc on all of my DVD Players and then once it reached full capacity; back up the recorded TV Programmes onto a DVD-R disc (for archive purposes) and erase everything on the recorded DVD-RW disc. Then start the recording onto DVD-RW process all over again.

But in order to do that, my PC needs access to the recorded material on the disc. It seems that I'm not even allowed to do this. I've tried ripping the DVD-RW disc (with the TV Programmes recorded onto it) and I keep getting an I/O error. When I try ripping an ISO from the disc using DVD Decrypter, under the Copyright Protection System tab it says; "CPRM". So I know that this is the problem. I've also tried ripping with DVDFab Decrypter but with the same result; an I/O error message appears.

The Maxell DVD-RW in question is a 2x speed disc and at the top of the packaging it says "with CPRM". Here's the link:

http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maxelldvdrwcprmgp5.jpg

I've tried installing DVD43 and AnyDVD and have had no luck in getting access to the Video files on the recorded DVD-RW and PowerDVD still refuses to play the disc. Before anyone asks, yes the DVD-RW disc in question has already been Finalised.

Anyone got any idea on what I'm doing wrong here? All I want to do is to watch and move my recorded TV Programmes from my DVD-RW disc to a DVD-R disc.

I would greatly appreciate any help with this.

[mats.hogberg]

Is the disc finalized in your DVDRecorder?

/mats

[soneman]

Is the disc finalized in your DVDRecorder?

/mats

Like I said in my original post; yes it is.

[LCSHG]

soneman

I can’t point directly to the problem but throw in some thoughts
You say the disks play fine in other recorders but not in the PC using Power DVD

[Can I assume that the PC DVD drive will recognize RW disks. Some units will a +/- disk but not a +/-RW]

I have used Maxell +/-RW disks with no problems but have not seen any "with CPRM" on them
Some time back a similar issue came up that a disk played ok in a stand alone but was either screwed up or would not play at all in a PC
It was explained that some disks and rental agencies are using a disk that is spin speed sensitive. This is done by skewering the disk slightly so that it would play ok at 2x and maybe 4x max. [The speed of most recorders] A PC would spin the disk at a max. play speed [over 16x] and the disk would not play. I presume that this was to stop someone playing and ripping the disk in a PC
The disk may be speed sensitive and the recorder or disk is passing it on, or the disks are the culprit
That notation “with CPRM “ [what else? ] bothers me. The 2x shouldn't make a difference. in itself. you might try a disk without this

PS
Iv'e looked around here for that notation and can't find it but it may be comming.
Which could mean stock up disks now
Just a thought

[mats.hogberg]

Is the disc finalized in your DVDRecorder?

/mats

Like I said in my original post; yes it is.

Sorry - missed that!

/Mats

[soneman]

soneman

I can’t point directly to the problem but throw in some thoughts
You say the disks play fine in other recorders but not in the PC using Power DVD

[Can I assume that the PC DVD drive will recognize RW disks. Some units will a +/- disk but not a +/-RW]

I have used Maxell +/-RW disks with no problems but have not seen any "with CPRM" on them
Some time back a similar issue came up that a disk played ok in a stand alone but was either screwed up or would not play at all in a PC
It was explained that some disks and rental agencies are using a disk that is spin speed sensitive. This is done by skewering the disk slightly so that it would play ok at 2x and maybe 4x max. [The speed of most recorders] A PC would spin the disk at a max. play speed [over 16x] and the disk would not play. I presume that this was to stop someone playing and ripping the disk in a PC
The disk may be speed sensitive and the recorder or disk is passing it on, or the disks are the culprit
That notation “with CPRM “ [what else? ] bothers me. The 2x shouldn't make a difference. in itself. you might try a disk without this

PS
Iv'e looked around here for that notation and can't find it but it may be comming.
Which could mean stock up disks now
Just a thought

Yeah, the DVD-RW disc in question plays fine in my other set-top DVD Players (and the Recorder itself) but not in the PC. The PC DVD Drive is a Benq DW1650 - whch is a + & - DVD Rewriter so it shouldn't really have any problems in playing the video on the disc.

The problem for me is that I have 25 of these Maxell DVD-RW discs which all say "With CPRM". So it looks like I'm stuck with them. But I do have lots of DVD-R discs though. The problem with using the write once only discs in my DVD Recorder is that I won't be able to record and erase as I please. I really wanted to use the -Rs only for backups and archiving.

The only other thing I can think of is that maybe there's a setting on my DVD Recorder to turn the CPRM off. I've seen a setting that says something along the lines of "Copy Protect ON > OFF" in the Recording settings. However. whenever I try changing this option; the setting changes to "Copy Protect OFF > ON". I'm a bit confused as to what changing (or not changing) this setting does. It's not very clear if you ask me.

Also note that this option is only available when I record in VR Mode.

[guns1inger]

Copy Protect On > Off means it is currently on, and click on it will turn it off.

Copy Protect Off > On means it is currently off, and you are about to turn it on.

Does this affect CPRM ? Who knows. A firmware update for your burner might remove the restriction on it reading the disc.

[soneman]

I've never flashed the Firmware for a CD/DVD drive before.

I'm just worried that I'll end up with a dead drive.

I read somewhere that older DVD-ROM drives might be able to read CPRM enabled discs. Is this true?

[LCSHG]

soneman

Using a BenQ 1650 should not require a firmware upgrade to play a DVD
Older drives in themselves do not seem to be answer for CP. [ Except as mentioned below]
I should think that the chipset and or the firmware would. The problem is that the firmware most often will not work from one unit to another.
If one knew the code and how to proberly modify the firmware, a change in operation and CP could be possible.
I have a Liteon 5045, 2 ilo RHD04 and a R04 all have had older and newer drives installed with no difference except region setting. The firmware and or chipset in the units limit the spin to some 2x
UK and US models seem to have a difference in operation [and firmware]
Your unit says CP off or On but I assume that you have tried this.

I go back to my orig. post What you say about the CPRM on the disks bothers me.
I understand you would rather use a RW disk rather than a - disk. But burn a program to the
- disk and play it in a standalone unit and than in the PC . If it also plays in the PC, I should think the RW disks are the proplem [and that bothers me]. If not
It may be a spin speed broblem which could be a problem ] in the UK [at present]
In a PC the DVD drive is most likely to spin at max. speed. It may be difficult to find a drive for a PC that has a spin of 2x

PS Edit
I should add. most that have changed DVD drives [Succesfully], Report no Difference in Operation or reaction to CP only that they were sucessful in replacing a defective drive


Again this is my thoughts.
At present I have had no problems with Play in a PC [although I do this very seldom]

[soneman]

soneman

Using a BenQ 1650 should not require a firmware upgrade to play a DVD
Older drives in themselves do not seem to be answer for CP. [ Except as mentioned below]
I should think that the chipset and or the firmware would. The problem is that the firmware most often will not work from one unit to another.
If one knew the code and how to proberly modify the firmware, a change in operation and CP could be possible.
I have a Liteon 5045, 2 ilo RHD04 and a R04 all have had older and newer drives installed with no difference except region setting. The firmware and or chipset in the units limit the spin to some 2x
UK and US models seem to have a difference in operation [and firmware]
Your unit says CP off or On but I assume that you have tried this.

I go back to my orig. post What you say about the CPRM on the disks bothers me.
I understand you would rather use a RW disk rather than a - disk. But burn a program to the
- disk and play it in a standalone unit and than in the PC . If it also plays in the PC, I should think the RW disks are the proplem [and that bothers me]. If not
It may be a spin speed broblem which could be a problem ] in the UK [at present]
In a PC the DVD drive is most likely to spin at max. speed. It may be difficult to find a drive for a PC that has a spin of 2x

PS Edit
I should add. most that have changed DVD drives [Succesfully], Report no Difference in Operation or reaction to CP only that they were sucessful in replacing a defective drive


Again this is my thoughts.
At present I have had no problems with Play in a PC [although I do this very seldom]

Well, I've been doing a number of tests of my own with my Maxell DVD-RW discs. The results are quite surprising.

I'll start from the top.

The first thing I tried was what you suggested. I made a backup of a commercial DVD movie (which I own) and shrunk it with DVD Shrink and then burned the resulting ISO image onto my Maxell DVD-RW at 2x speed using DVD Decrypter and my Benq DW1650 ReWriter drive.

I tried playing this disc in PowerDVD (in the Benq drive) and had no playback problems.

I tried playing the same disc in my DVD Recorder and again had no playback problems. I then tried playing the disc in my Benq drive again, and no playback problems again.

So this is where I decided to erase everything on the disc (using InCD) in my Benq drive and then I decided to put the empty disc into my DVD Recorder. After the DVD Recorder Formatted the disc, I decided to record exactly 10 minutes of Analog TV in Video mode. I then told the DVD Recorder to Finalise the disc and once it Finalised, it automatically starting playing the recorded footage.

Again, I didn't notice any playback problems in the DVD Recorder. So now I tried playing the disc in my Benq drive and this is where I encountered the same problem. In My Computer, the disc is recognised as a DVD-RW but the summary says "Free Space: 0 Bytes" and "Capacity: 0 Bytes". I then tried playing the disc in PowerDVD and I got an error message; "The current disc in the drive is in an Unsupported format".

I tried ripping the disc again using DVD Decrypter and I got an I/O error just like the one I reported in my earlier post.

Now here's the shocking part.

A random thought entered my head. I thought to myself "why not try this disc in my LG GSA 5163d drive on my other PC?". So I put the disc in the drive, My Computer showed the disc in the UDF file system with Free Space: 0 Bytes and Capacity: 0.99 GB. Then as you might have guessed, I tried playing the disc in PowerDVD and hallelujah; it worked!

Then I tried ripping the disc using DVD Decrypter and the disc ripped to the Hard Drive without any read errors or problems. And that's not the weirdest thing about the whole ordeal. DVD Decrypter still says that the disc is using CPRM under the Copyright Protection System tab and I also noticed that the ripping speed didn't go above 4x.

So it looks like my Benq drive is the problem. Has anyone got any idea on what I should do to get the disc to work in my Benq drive? Could InCD cause issues with the disc and my Benq drive? I don't have InCD (or Nero for that matter) installed on the PC with my LG GSA 5163d drive.

The only other issue I can think of is the Benq firmware which to me is a 100% no-no.

Any and all suggestions are welcome.

[LCSHG]

[soneman]

Your Posts did intrigue me for many reasons and I may have been wrong in some assumptions. I did post some of your concerns and problems on another Site for some answers especially that CPRM thing
Why dont you post your last post at

http://www.normediasolutions.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=12

You should read some of the replies to my post [CP on a Disk]

Harpmaker is using the BenQ drives and may have an answer
I may have been looking for problems that do not exist. He pointed me to some very good sites that I need to read

[MOVIEGEEK]

EDIT

[VegasBud]

soneman,

You mentioned that your recorder has a "Copy Protect On/Off" setting, but it isn't clear whether you have tried turning it off, making a recording, and then seeing if the problem still exists. That would be the easiest solution, if it works.

If that fails, you could switch from recording in VR mode. The last time I looked into CPRM, it only worked if:
1) the recorder supports CPRM (most do at this point)
2) the disk supports CPRM (unfortunately, you have a batch that do)
3) the recording is in VR mode

So it looks like my Benq drive is the problem. Has anyone got any idea on what I should do to get the disc to work in my Benq drive?"

Your recorder is encrypting the material, and only a CPRM compliant device can decrypt it so it can be played. If the Benq can't handle the CPRM, most likely it isn't CPRM compliant, and the only one you have that is CPRM non-compliant. You can check it by using Nero InfoTool. On the "Drive" tab, at the bottom, if the "CPRM" checkbox is clear, it isn't CPRM compliant. If it is non-CPRM-compliant, I wouldn't be too eager to find a way to make it so. It would be a lot better to keep the encryption from happening in the first place.

[soneman]

soneman,

You mentioned that your recorder has a "Copy Protect On/Off" setting, but it isn't clear whether you have tried turning it off, making a recording, and then seeing if the problem still exists. That would be the easiest solution, if it works.

If that fails, you could switch from recording in VR mode. The last time I looked into CPRM, it only worked if:
1) the recorder supports CPRM (most do at this point)
2) the disk supports CPRM (unfortunately, you have a batch that do)
3) the recording is in VR mode

So it looks like my Benq drive is the problem. Has anyone got any idea on what I should do to get the disc to work in my Benq drive?"

Your recorder is encrypting the material, and only a CPRM compliant device can decrypt it so it can be played. If the Benq can't handle the CPRM, most likely it isn't CPRM compliant, and the only one you have that is CPRM non-compliant. You can check it by using Nero InfoTool. On the "Drive" tab, at the bottom, if the "CPRM" checkbox is clear, it isn't CPRM compliant. If it is non-CPRM-compliant, I wouldn't be too eager to find a way to make it so. It would be a lot better to keep the encryption from happening in the first place.

I've been recording with my DVD Recorder in Video Mode and according to the Instruction Manual, the Copy Protect option is turned off by default.

Nero InfoTool is showing this:



So it looks like my Benq drive definitely supports CPRM.

By the way, I decided to uninstall InCD but I'm still having the same problem as before.

What could be the problem? I mean my LG drive reads, plays and rips the recorded DVD-RW disc fine. But the LG drive is older than the Benq drive and the LG is connected to a slower PC aswell which is why I'm very confused at the moment.

LCSHG, can you find out from Harpmaker how I can get this disc to work with my Benq drive? Because you might've noticed that I'm not registered on that forum and it would save me the inconvenience of registering on that forum just to solve this problem. Thanks.

[LCSHG]

soneman

Registration is easy. It only requires an Email address and pasword. as most sites do
I do feel that it would be the best way to go

The disk working in an LG and not the BenQ is a mystery, If the BenQ is working.
Most users of BenQ swear by them.
I have not used a PC for almost 2 years. I use standalone units and stick with LiteOn drives for my units.
I think your problem raises questions. I find the responces, usefull and intresting.

[VegasBud]

soneman,

I just researched it again to see if something has changed in reference to CPRM being used on a disk formatted for Video Mode, and there is no recorder that can do it. Even the newest HD recorders can't do it. I can't find an online manual for your specific model, but the newest Funai recorder (FDR90E) states in the manual:

"Video that is "copy-once only" can only be recorded using a dvd-rw disc in VR mode with cprm."

If you are, in fact, recording in Video Mode, the problem isn't CPRM. That would be reinforced by the Benq being CPRM compliant (but unable to read the disc), and your ability to copy the disc contents using DvdDecrypter on the LG. If the LG isn't CPRM compliant, it wouldn't be able to decrypt the disc contents, and if it is CPRM compliant, it wouldn't allow the copying. Also, DvdDecrypter, AnyDVD, DvdFab Decrypter, etc. are all incapable of removing CPRM.

Personally, I would get even just one RW disk (that is not CPRM compliant), and try testing with that (to rule out a disc problem). If you still have the same problem, either the Funai is ouputting strange things, or the Benq has a problem. Either way, you'll be one step closer to resolving the matter.

[soneman]

soneman

Registration is easy. It only requires an Email address and pasword. as most sites do
I do feel that it would be the best way to go

The disk working in an LG and not the BenQ is a mystery, If the BenQ is working.
Most users of BenQ swear by them.
I have not used a PC for almost 2 years. I use standalone units and stick with LiteOn

drives for my units.
I think your problem raises questions. I find the responces, usefull and

intresting.

Yeah I've registered on that forum but Harpmaker is telling me that you misunderstood him and that he's never got CPRM discs to work on a Benq drive.

Personally, I would get even just one RW disk (that is not CPRM compliant), and try testing with that (to rule out a disc problem). If you still have the same problem, either the Funai is ouputting strange things, or the Benq has a problem. Either way, you'll be one step closer to resolving the matter.

I've just tried that now.

I'm now using a Mr. DVD branded DVD-RW 2x speed disc and used it to record a Terrestrial Analog TV programme in my DVD Recorder. This is what the packaging looks like:



I've tried putting this disc into my Benq drive (with the recording) and this is where it gets even weirder:















I've tried the same disc in my LG drive and have had no problems in reading, playing the disc in PowerDVD and ripping the disc to the hard drive.

I think this is confirmation that my Benq drive is the problem. But I still can't put my finger on what the problem is exactly.

And in case you're wondering why Nero CD Speed shows Mitsubishi as my DVD Recorder; apparently my Funai DVD Recorder uses a Mitsubishi chipset.

I would appreciate your suggestions on this.

[Harpmaker]

Yeah I've registered on that forum but Harpmaker is telling me that you misunderstood him and that he's never got CPRM discs to work on a Benq drive.

Hi soneman,

What I actually said was that I have no CPRM encoded media to even try in my Benq 1620. DVDInfoPro says that my 1620 is CPRM compliant.

My apologizes for not reading this thread before answering you over at normsforum.com. It answers a lot of questions I was going to ask you.

To help get to the bottom of the problem, it would be helpful to swap the DVD drives between your computers. Put the Benq in the older system, and move the LG to the newer one; then see how things work. Doing this (or at least moving your LG drive to the new system) would also tell you if the LG is CPRM compliant.

In the end, if seems like your recorder is making discs the Benq just doesn't like.

[soneman]

Problem solved.

I upgraded the firmware for my Benq drive from BCDC to BCHC and the drive now reads, plays back, rips and scans the disc without any problems.

Some screenshots of my success:







The CMC disc (below), I tested to confirm whether my DVD Recorder was turning CPRM on or not. And it turns out, it isn't.



What I don't get is why didn't the BCDC firmware read these discs? I mean, it's a newer firmware when you compare it to the A103 firmware of my LG drive, where the disc worked fine.

This sort of thing just shouldn't happen when you've only had your new DVD Rewriter drive for a few months.

But at least this thread can be used by others who experience similar problems.

[VegasBud]

soneman,

Just to make sure you know, there is a BCIC firmware available for your Benq. You can get it from this page at the Benq website. If you want more information to determine if you want to update your firmware (again), here's a very long discussion about the BCIC firmware.

[soneman]

soneman,

Just to make sure you know, there is a BCIC firmware available for your Benq. You can get it from this page at the Benq website. If you want more information to determine if you want to update your firmware (again), here's a very long discussion about the BCIC firmware.

I realise that there is a newer firmware available for my Benq drive. I just chose the BCHC firmware because it happened to be the next one up from my original BCDC firmware.

Now that my drive is fully functional and reading and writing fine, I shouldn't think that there is any need for me to upgrade any further. I think I'm gonna follow the "if it aint broke, don't try to fix it" motto.