convert mini dv video to dvd with high quality

[vince49]

Hi all,
I'm using a panasonic digital video camera with mini-dv video tapes. When I transfer my videos to my computer, I get a .avi file, which I assume should be roughly the same quality as the recorded movie (I didn't compare it against the original though). What I'd like to do is create a dvd out of this .avi file, readable by any standard dvd-player for tv and with the highest possible quality - even if the resulting file size is huge (I can buy more dvds if necessary!!). My problem is that when I encode my .avi file into a .vob or a .mpg file, the compression implies a non negligible loss in picture quality. I browsed the internet and this forum and the only answers I found was that what I want to do is simply not possible. I also tried several encoders provided on the web, but none of them gave me real satisfaction. From what I read here and there, TMPGEnc seems quite good, however I couldn't try it cos apparently their mpeg2 encoder is not free - I'm ok to buy a software, but I just want to ensure it's suitable for for what I want to do with it before buying it.
So my questions are :
1- Is what I want to do feasible?
2 If yes, what would be the best encoder/software ?

Thanks very much for your help

[guns1inger]

If you transfer via firewire then the avi will be indentical to what is on the tape, as the transfer process just copies the data from the tape to an avi container on your hard drive.

To answer your questions

1. Yes - with a couple of caveats. The first, keep the running time to no more than around 65 minutes. This will allow you to use the highest allowable bitrates for DVD. The second, mpeg2 is a lossy codec. Every time it encodes, it discards some data. Your image will not be identical to your recording. The question is, will you see the difference.

2. Tmpgenc is very good, and the mpeg2 encoder should function for 2 weeks in the demo. The downside of tmpgenc is it's speed. It is by far the slowest commercial mpeg2 encoder on the market. Another very good alternative is ProCoder Express. Similar price point, much faster encoder. After that is CCE Basic, Faster again, but possibly not the best choice for DV source. There is also the standalone version of the Mainconcept encoder, however if you were to look at that, I would recommend you sepnd the money on something like Vegas Movie Studio so you get a good entry level editor and the mainconcept encoder and DVD authoring all for a cheaper price. You might also consider the freeware HCenc, although it is a little trickier to start with.

[gadgetguy]

Most of what I work with is D8 or Passthrough which is roughly the same as your MiniDV. I use QuEnc to encode to DVD spec mpeg2 with AC3 audio. I find the results nearly indistinguishable from the source. Just remember to encode interlaced, BFF.

[vince49]

many thanks for your prompt answers !
For some reason, TMPGenc doesn't want to work on my laptop - keeps telling me that mpeg2 encoder licence has expired, although I never installed it before. Anyway, I managed to install it on my desktop computer so I'm gonna give it a go and I'll keep you posted. I'll also try QuEnc and I'll let you know.
Last thing, it might seem a stupid question (well, that's a forum for newbies, right?), but although I've read that a few times before, I can't really see why it's better to use a firewire to download a movie ? I would have naively thought that it would only change the speed of rate transfer and not the actual final quality ?
Thanks again!!

[edDV]

Last thing, it might seem a stupid question (well, that's a forum for newbies, right?), but although I've read that a few times before, I can't really see why it's better to use a firewire to download a movie ? I would have naively thought that it would only change the speed of rate transfer and not the actual final quality ?
Thanks again!!

It makes a huge difference in quality. The resulting 720x576i DV-AVI file is first generation quality (digitally the same as what is on the DV tape). USB gets you CIF (352x288 at half the motion rate). S-Video goes through D/A, A/D (resolution drops to ~ 540x576) and is converted to PAL (lower chroma detail) plus the file size grows 5-8x to keep that lower level of quality.

[vince49]

I'm a bit confused cos if I use usb cable to transfer a movie, I get a 720x576 avi file, and the quality doesn't seem too bad to me ?

[mats.hogberg]

Technically, it should be equally possible to transfer DV data over USB as it is using FireWire. It's just bits&bytes that's transfered anyway. But all DV cameras I've heard of, uses lower q video/data for the USB transfer (as USB isn't capable of as high bitrate transfer as FireWire)

/Mats

[vince49]

ok, first tests with :
1- TMPGEnc : on the converted movie I get what seems to be deinterlacing problems whenever there's a motion involved. I played a bit with options like 'motion search precision' and Deinterlace(None) but couldn't fix this problem. Is there any recommended settings in TMPGenc ?
2- QuEnc : although it seems to accept .avi as an input file format even if that's not the default one (.avs), for some reason it doesn't want to start encoding process in my case...
Haven't tried the other recommended encoders yet.
Cheers

[edDV]

I'm a bit confused cos if I use usb cable to transfer a movie, I get a 720x576 avi file, and the quality doesn't seem too bad to me ?

Identify your camcorder make and model. I thought you said somewhere you were using Digital8 or MiniDv pass-through.

[gadgetguy]

...2- QuEnc : although it seems to accept .avi as an input file format even if that's not the default one (.avs), for some reason it doesn't want to start encoding process in my case...

What settings did you use and what happened when you clicked Encode?

[vince49]

my model is a Panasonic NV-GS180GN

[jagabo]

my model is a Panasonic NV-GS180GN

A few of the newer camcorders will transfer full resolution DV via a USB2 port. Yours appears to be one of those.

[vince49]

...2- QuEnc : although it seems to accept .avi as an input file format even if that's not the default one (.avs), for some reason it doesn't want to start encoding process in my case...

What settings did you use and what happened when you clicked Encode?

source file : .avi filfe
codec : MPEG-2
2000 Bitrate
Use VBR
High quality
Advanced options : all default ones except 'interlaced encoding' ticked

When I clicked Encode, it actually creates the source file,but it's empty and nothing happens in QuEnc - even after 10 min (the original movie is 100 Mo in size). Can it due QuEnc being extremely slow ? QuEnc really seem to do nothing.

[edDV]

my model is a Panasonic NV-GS180GN

A few of the newer camcorders will transfer full resolution DV via a USB2 port. Yours appears to be one of those.

vince49,

The ability to transfer DV streams over USB2 has been part of the DirectShow spec for some time but I've only seen it implemented at the high end before. I assume you are using Panasonic's Motion DV Studio 5.3E LE software to transfer your DV?

Have you found any other software that supports DV transfer from this camcorder over USB2?

[gadgetguy]

source file : .avi filfe
codec : MPEG-2
2000 Bitrate
Use VBR
High quality
Advanced options : all default ones except 'interlaced encoding' ticked

When I clicked Encode, it actually creates the source file,but it's empty and nothing happens in QuEnc - even after 10 min (the original movie is 100 Mo in size). Can it due QuEnc being extremely slow ? QuEnc really seem to do nothing.

Wow, that's a really low bitrate for a full resolution video. In general I encode VBR at around 5600 to 6500, 2 pass and it generally runs at about 13fps. In 2 pass, it immediately creates the destination file, but doesn't actually write anything to it until the second pass. But you should see progress in the progress squares (although the contrast is very light and not always apparent). And it should give an estimated time to complete the current pass. The fps and time to complete usually fluctuate depending on content.

[vince49]

I assume you are using Panasonic's Motion DV Studio 5.3E LE software to transfer your DV?

you're right

Have you found any other software that supports DV transfer from this camcorder over USB2?

No, but I didn't really try to find some.

I actually just made a comparison between transfer with USB and with firewire. The resulting .avi files are of the same size, and it looks like they're identical in quality. So I guess you were right, mi camrecorder is one of those new ones that can make it happening with usb.

[vince49]

source file : .avi filfe
codec : MPEG-2
2000 Bitrate
Use VBR
High quality
Advanced options : all default ones except 'interlaced encoding' ticked

When I clicked Encode, it actually creates the source file,but it's empty and nothing happens in QuEnc - even after 10 min (the original movie is 100 Mo in size). Can it due QuEnc being extremely slow ? QuEnc really seem to do nothing.

Wow, that's a really low bitrate for a full resolution video. In general I encode VBR at around 5600 to 6500, 2 pass and it generally runs at about 13fps. In 2 pass, it immediately creates the destination file, but doesn't actually write anything to it until the second pass. But you should see progress in the progress squares (although the contrast is very light and not always apparent). And it should give an estimated time to complete the current pass. The fps and time to complete usually fluctuate depending on content.

all right, I'll try again and I'll keep you posted.

[vince49]

ok, first tests with :
1- TMPGEnc : on the converted movie I get what seems to be deinterlacing problems whenever there's a motion involved. I played a bit with options like 'motion search precision' and Deinterlace(None) but couldn't fix this problem. Is there any recommended settings in TMPGenc ?

Does anybody have any suggestion for this? To be a bit clearer with what sort of problem I'm having, I attached a sample of picture grabbed from the compressed movie (this doesn't appear in the original one)
Thanks

[vince49]

source file : .avi filfe
codec : MPEG-2
2000 Bitrate
Use VBR
High quality
Advanced options : all default ones except 'interlaced encoding' ticked

When I clicked Encode, it actually creates the source file,but it's empty and nothing happens in QuEnc - even after 10 min (the original movie is 100 Mo in size). Can it due QuEnc being extremely slow ? QuEnc really seem to do nothing.

Wow, that's a really low bitrate for a full resolution video. In general I encode VBR at around 5600 to 6500, 2 pass and it generally runs at about 13fps. In 2 pass, it immediately creates the destination file, but doesn't actually write anything to it until the second pass. But you should see progress in the progress squares (although the contrast is very light and not always apparent). And it should give an estimated time to complete the current pass. The fps and time to complete usually fluctuate depending on content.

all right, I'll try again and I'll keep you posted.

Fortunately, I've got 2 computers cos I installed QuEnc on my laptop and it worked. It still doesn't do anything on my desktop computer for some reason?!? Anyway, at least I can do some tests now - 1 computer per software, that's sort of optimized solution,huh?
Ok, I've got exactly the same trouble with QuEnc than with TMPGEnc (see picture above). And I tried twice, with and without 'Interlaced Encoding' option. So question is : what am I missing ??
Thanks

[jagabo]

Ok, I've got exactly the same trouble with QuEnc than with TMPGEnc (see picture above). And I tried twice, with and without 'Interlaced Encoding' option. So question is : what am I missing ??
Thanks

Each frame from your camcorder contains half of two separate pictures, called fields. One field contains all the even scanlines of one picture, the other field contains all the odd scanlines of another picture (taken 1/50 second later). When you watch this on a standard definition TV you see one field at a time, in succession. You never see both fields at the same time. On a computer monitor you see both fields (unless the software is hiding them from you, ie, deinterlacing on the fly) so you see "comb artifacts" wherever anything moved.

If you burn the interlaced video to a DVD the DVD player will send the fields one at a time to the TV, exactly as they were originally recorded, exactly as your camcorder sends them to a TV. All you have to do is make sure the field order is maintained correctly through conversion to MPEG and the DVD mastering process. DV camcorders capture bottom-field-first so make sure the software detects that correctly.

[vince49]

To answer your questions

1. Yes - with a couple of caveats. The first, keep the running time to no more than around 65 minutes. This will allow you to use the highest allowable bitrates for DVD. The second, mpeg2 is a lossy codec. Every time it encodes, it discards some data. Your image will not be identical to your recording. The question is, will you see the difference.

I finally managed to get my dvd with TMPGEnc + TMPGEnc DVD Author. And unfortunately, yes, I do see the difference. Actually, I should have mentionned it before, but first I tried with motiondv studio 5.3E LE (for transfer) + CyberLink PowerProducer 2 (conversion + dvd authoring). I was not entirely convinced by the results, that's why I asked you guys if it was possible to get something nearly identical to the original. (the main problem in CyberLink PowerProducer 2 being that you can't really play with the settings). But it turns out that I still get the same loss in quality with TMPGEnc, that is a loss in terms of colors. This is much better in the original movie.
So now, I'm wondering, is this due to the 3-CCD ? This camrecorder is supposed to give a very good rendering in terms of colors and it might be difficult to keep the same quality after conversion. What do you think ?
Thanks for your help

[guns1inger]

I think you are still doing something wrong somewhere, as you should be able to encode without altering things too dramatically. Admittedly, tmpgenc does work in RGB, which might affect colours during colorspace conversion.

The other question I would ask is how you are comparing the colours. Depending on how your PC and TV are calibrated, you may well get a very different representation of colours and gamma. Some televisions can even hold different settings for different stations, just to add to the confusion.

[vince49]

I think you are still doing something wrong somewhere, as you should be able to encode without altering things too dramatically. Admittedly, tmpgenc does work in RGB, which might affect colours during colorspace conversion.

The other question I would ask is how you are comparing the colours. Depending on how your PC and TV are calibrated, you may well get a very different representation of colours and gamma. Some televisions can even hold different settings for different stations, just to add to the confusion.

To compare the colors, I play the movie on my tv by connecting my camrecorder to A/V channel, then I play the dvd on my tv again, same A/V channel. I'm not saying that the final result on the dvd is very bad, but there is a small but visible difference.

[guns1inger]

There will always be some loss. Mpeg2 is a lossy codec. It tries to remove aspects of the image that the eye won't notice. Some of this is colour gradiant. Even at the highest settings, there is some data loss.

I would seriously try encoding with ProCoder instead of tmpgenc. ProCoder Express is comparable in price to tmpgenc, for an arguably better encoder.

But you will not get an indentical transfer. Standard mini-DV is compressed at a ratio of approximately 5:1, or 25Mb/s. Mpeg compresses that again to less than half. Something has to give.

[vince49]

There will always be some loss. Mpeg2 is a lossy codec. It tries to remove aspects of the image that the eye won't notice. Some of this is colour gradiant. Even at the highest settings, there is some data loss.

I would seriously try encoding with ProCoder instead of tmpgenc. ProCoder Express is comparable in price to tmpgenc, for an arguably better encoder.

But you will not get an indentical transfer. Standard mini-DV is compressed at a ratio of approximately 5:1, or 25Mb/s. Mpeg compresses that again to less than half. Something has to give.

ok, thanks for your answers. The bad thing about ProCoder is that I can't try it before spending my money in it, so it might be a bit risky. Anyway, I'll have to think about it.
And what do you think about ImTOO MPEG Encoder ?

[guns1inger]

Not one of the real players. I would consider the free encoder HCenc before lloking at IMToo.

Would it be possible to post a screen shot of the same frame from both the DV file, and the mpeg encoding ? With these some indpendent and ojective analysis of the colour shift can be done using vectorscopes etc. Even better would be a few seconds of footage.

[jagabo]

To compare the colors, I play the movie on my tv by connecting my camrecorder to A/V channel, then I play the dvd on my tv again, same A/V channel. I'm not saying that the final result on the dvd is very bad, but there is a small but visible difference.

That may simply be the difference between your camcorder's output and the DVD player's output.

[vince49]

Not one of the real players. I would consider the free encoder HCenc before lloking at IMToo.

Would it be possible to post a screen shot of the same frame from both the DV file, and the mpeg encoding ? With these some indpendent and ojective analysis of the colour shift can be done using vectorscopes etc. Even better would be a few seconds of footage.

Sure I can do that. That's just a matter of size - because it seems that the limit is 2mb per file. Which format do you think would be better to avoid adding additional garbage with another compression step ? Can I attach a .zip file, for instance ?

[guns1inger]

You can. Something that doesn't use a lossy compression would be good. Even a .bmp at 720 x 576 shouldn't be too big.

[vince49]

here is what I've done :
1- transfer from camcorder to my pc with motiondv studio 5.3E LE
2- cut a small part and output the result as a dv avi file (initial_movie.avi)
3- convert it into a m2v file with TMPGenc (used default options - result : compressed_movie.m2v)
4- create a dvd from the .m2v file with TMPGenc DVD author

in the archive, you'll find all those files.

If it turns out that they're all too close to tell the difference, then I guess my problem is either due to step 2 (loss in quality due to ouputing in motion dv studio; but I would assume this shouldn't alter the movie too much) or to a difference in settings between my camrecorder and dvd player, as someone suggested ?

Otherwise, I'll be very happy to know what I'm doing wrong!!
Many thanks.


archive.zip