Panasonic DMR-EH50 vs. JVC DR-MH300

[Cirruz]

Hi there!

I recently bought a Panasonic DMR-EH50 and I'm kind of happy with it. I need the recorder mainly to convert old VHS tapes (most of them in decent condition) to DVD. I also like to record some TV programs from digital satellite service.

After reading these foruns for some time, I got the impression that the Panasonic units are really bad because of the proprietary MPEG encoder chip. So, I'm in a strange situation in which I'm happy with this Panasonic unit but don't know if I'll be more happy with an unit from another brand!

Recently, I've noticed that a local store has several JVC DR-MH300 for sell at 399€. I bought my Panasonic for 199€! So, the JVC cost twice as much... Now, a friend of mine wants to buy my Panasonic for 180€... My question is:

Is the JVC DR-MH300 really that superior to the Panasonic DMR-EH50, that it justifies the double price? Will my Panasonic VHS convertions be too much inferior to the JVC ones?

Thanks a lot in advance!

[lordsmurf]

The Panasonic will not remove any noise. Your video will look about the same, probably worse. Noise = encoding issues (blocks, mostly).

The JVC will clean the video, the DVD will be better than the tape.

Is it worth it? It would be to me. I see no point in archiving if you're not fixing the quality.

JVC is my favorite option, and will work the best (strongest filters on the market!), but Toshiba and LG and LiteOn and some others can do it too, to some degree.

I don't want to get into this too much more, I've posted on this a zillion times (as have many others).

[davideck]

All of the filtering in the JVC tends to soften the image. This may be fine for 352x480 captures, but if you prefer the look of 720x480, then the Panasonic may be a better choice. Toshiba is my favorite. YMMV. Picture quality is subjective.

I also found that the JVC DR-M100 was more sensitive to VHS horizontal jitter errors than the Panasonic ES20 or the Toshiba. It actually made some of my VHS tapes look worse. The DR-MH300 may be the same?

[lordsmurf]

davideck, I think you're stretching for anti-JVC comments. I've seen no such jitter errors in 2+ years of working with JVC equipment. The "soften image" is subjective. And I disagree. We'll leave it at that.

I don't see how a Panasonic EH50 would be a better choice for VHS work in any capacity. As already mentioned, the lack of noise filters with all the "sharpness and details" results in blocky encodes. Or at very least, some degree of posterization. It all depends on the chipset, and the EH50 is using Panasonic proprietary.

Your ES20 may be like my ES10, which has stabilizing filters not found in most DVD recorders, and that has helped on the rare tape with wiggly video and tearing problems. But I use it for passthrough, it fixed the error, then pass it on to a better recorder. The ES10 recording quality is still quite "blah".

Toshiba is another alternative I mentioned. It works well, though slightly less filtering.

Cirruz,
I just wanted to add that the Panasonic will be fine for you, if you use it as a PVR in 2-hour SP mode only. It does fine for recording tv (clean cable or satellite signal), the hard drive is nice for storing watch-once type programs, no discs needed. There's nothing really wrong with Panasonic, for this exact usage. For VHS tapes, look elsewhere. For longer recording times, look elsewhere.

[davideck]

I've seen no such jitter errors in 2+ years of working with JVC equipment.

If you're using an external TBC and/or a VCR with TBC/DNR, then it is not an issue. Without an upstream TBC, however, I noticed that some horizontal jitter and/or step disturbances were exaggerated through the JVC's built in Frame Synchronizer. These same disturbances were noticeably improved by the Toshiba, whereas the Panasonic ES20 performed similar to the TBC-1000.

I mentioned this because the JVC did make some of my VHS tapes look more unstable and Cirruz is wondering if he should expect superior performance worth twice the price. I'm not being anti-JVC. I'm just reporting an observation.

False copy protection lockout can also be an issue. If the machine you have is working for you then consider that an advantage.

As far as filtering is concerned, quality recordings played back on a good VCR do not always require substantial filtering. I wish JVC would allow the user more control over the DNR. But I'm drifting into the subjective, so yes, let's leave it at that.

[Marvingj]

I have both Panny E-10 & JVC DRM-10. Both are build solid. But picture wise JVC Stream rolls over Panny. Its the Filters & LSI Chip. No Comparsion.

[trhouse]

I have a Panasonic ES10, a borrowed ES35V, and a JVC DR-M10S which I repaired recently. The Panasonics have less filtering but do well on cleaner, noise free sources. They tend to macroblock more on noisy sources since the encoder sees the noise as signal and tries to reproduce it.

The JVC has nice filters that work well on noiser sources. The drawback is that they cannot be turned off for clean sources so you may end up with more filtering than desired.

[Cirruz]

Sirs, thanks a lot for your dedicated feedbacks! But I'm still more undecided than before! Damn, if only I could get my hands on a JVC DR-H300 in order to do an extensive comparation... Damn...

Well, for now I guess I'll stick with the Panasonic. As I said, the recorded picture quality is better than that of the VCR directly connected to the TV so, at least the Panasonic isn't messing it up!

Again, thanks a lot!

[lordsmurf]

Without an upstream TBC, however, I noticed that some horizontal jitter and/or step disturbances were exaggerated through the JVC's built in Frame Synchronizer. These same disturbances were noticeably improved by the Toshiba, whereas the Panasonic ES20 performed similar to the TBC-1000.

Oh .. oh... I get you.
Normal VCR (no line TBC), nothing fancy, no extra TBC ... yuck.

I've tried that before, it's part of how I test DVD recorders. You know, I see all kinds of undesirable stuff happening with a plain VHS VCR. Usually it's more about interference from the VCR, not so much the DVD recorder or its filter system.

I try to avoid grading equipment when I think other things are affecting it or preventing it from reaching peak performance. In this case, I'd say using a simple VCR is going to be a pain, regardless of DVD recorder choice. You really need something a bit more advanced if you start to work with a lot of VHS tapes, and least if quality is one of the concerns.

[davideck]

Normal VCR (no line TBC), nothing fancy, no extra TBC ... yuck.

Well...some would rather not use an external TBC or a VCR with TBC/DNR.

Consider this setup; VCR without TBC/DNR -> DVD Recorder
Its signal path is; VCR playback signal path -> DVD Recorder

Now consider this setup; VCR with TBC/DNR -> External TBC -> DVD Recorder
Its signal path is; VCR playback signal path -> TBC/DNR Anti-alias filter -> TBC/DNR A/D Converter -> TBC/DNR memory / DNR processor -> TBC/DNR D/A Converter -> TBC/DNR Reconstruction filter -> External TBC Anti-alias filter -> External TBC A/D Converter -> External TBC memory -> External TBC D/A Converter -> External TBC Reconstruction filter -> DVD Recorder

Each step along the way (except for memory) modifies the signal and potentially introduces distortion. Which setup has the cleaner signal path? Why include the TBC/DNR if it is not necessary? Why include an external TBC if it is not necessary? How many TBCs and Noise Reducers do you want in your signal path? Filters, filters, and more filters...

Quality starts with an appropriate signal path. A setup that is designed to "clean" bad recordings is different from a setup that is optimized to preserve good recordings.

I try to avoid grading equipment when I think other things are affecting it or preventing it from reaching peak performance.

DVD Recorders are intended to capture directly from a VCR. They have an internal Frame Synchronizer with some inherent TBC performance.

A DVD Recorder that requires an upstream TBC in order to operate at "peak performance" is simply mandating the use of additional redundant circuitry because of its own shortcomings.

In contrast, a DVD Recorder with good TBC performance is a bonus because it can improve the playback stability of any VCR, including the one that made the recording. This can significantly improve quality.

In fact, I think that a Toshiba DVD Recorder would make an excellent upstream TBC for achieving the peak performance of the JVC DVD Recorder.

[SingSing]

I was able to follow what you wrote, until :

In fact, I think that a Toshiba DVD Recorder would make an excellent upstream TBC for achieving the peak performance of the JVC DVD Recorder.

[davideck]

SingSing -
That quote is in reference to this;

I've seen no such jitter errors in 2+ years of working with JVC equipment.

If you're using an external TBC and/or a VCR with TBC/DNR, then it is not an issue. Without an upstream TBC, however, I noticed that some horizontal jitter and/or step disturbances were exaggerated through the JVC's built in Frame Synchronizer. These same disturbances were noticeably improved by the Toshiba...

The Toshiba DVD Recorder doubles as an excellent external TBC/Frame Synchronizer when used in passthrough mode. It could thus be used as such to improve the stability of tapes with Horizontal jitter that might otherwise be exacerbated by the JVC.