VHS Capturing: Compression / No Compression Mystery

[neon303]

OK. I have been doing my homework reading all the articles and tutorials on this topic. I am capturing VHS tapes to digital format and want the BEST quality.

I ran a test for a sanity check. I captured the same 1 minute video 2 ways. Both ways at 29.97 FPS. It left me stumped.

1) I capture using a codec such as DVCPRO-NTSC. File is 100 megs. The interlaced lines are apparent on the final vdeo. I deinterlace it making a new video. Deinterlaced version is 200 megs and looks much better (since it is adding double amount of frames ofcourse).

2) I capture with NO Compression. File is 800 megs. This video experienced more drop frames during capture. I run a deinterlaced version. Deinterlaced is 1.4 gigs.

Here is why I am stumped and hopefully some of the wise here can clarify for me:

A) The best quality video out of these was the deinterlaced, compressed version. It made a huge improvement from the interlaced version. The non compressed version did not have apparent interlaced lines and when I de interlaced it, it just looked like more crap. It did not make it look BETTER like the deinterlacing of the compressed video. The non copressed video from the get go looked more "pixelated" than the compressed version.

I thought the non compressed version would be the best. Why not? Why would the compressed de interlaced run thee smoothest and look the best?

B) Compression takes processing. So why would the compressed version experience LESS drop frames than the non compressed?

I thank anyone in advance for some education on this mystery.

Neon303
Mac G5 Dual 2.7 Ghz OS X 10.4.4 4 / 4 Gigs Ram / 2 400 GB HDs
Pyro AV API 757 Firewire Video Capture Device
BTV Pro 5.4.1 Capture Software
Sony VCR Using RCA Outs

[thecoalman]

I am capturing VHS tapes to digital format and want the BEST quality.

Leave them interlaced and use a software player like PowerDVD for playback. Additionally if you're final destination is for playback on a TV you definitely do no want to deinterlace.

[jagabo]

A) The best quality video out of these was the deinterlaced, compressed version. It made a huge improvement from the interlaced version. The non compressed version did not have apparent interlaced lines and when I de interlaced it, it just looked like more crap.

You are confusing lack-of-interlace comb lines with image quality. When you watch interlaced video on TV you don't see comb lines because you only see one field at a time. If your final destination is DVD you want to leave the frames interlaced. Just encode appropriately and it will be displayed exactly like the original source -- one field at a time. (Actually, no matter what you do you will see one field at a time on TV. But if you encode improperly the results will be the wrong field order, or if you deinterlace you'll get other nasty artifacts.) If you want to watch your interlaced video on the computer use a BOB deinterlacing player. Only deinterlace if you need to distribute something and can't control the viewing conditions.

B) Compression takes processing. So why would the compressed version experience LESS drop frames than the non compressed?

Because your hard drive can't quite keep up with an uncompressed stream.

[neon303]

OK. This is becoming more clear now.

When I capture my VHS with NO compression is the digital result interlaced by default simply because its capturing the raw interlaced VHS signal? If so, why are the interlace grid lines not visually apparent like they are on the compressed version? Why is the deinterlacing more effective on the compressed version compared to the non compressed?

So, contrary to what most of what these articles say, I should use my compression to reduce drop frames since the stream writing to my hard disk is less intense than the large non compressed version?

Guys, thanks for the quick response.

Mac G5 Dual 2.7 Ghz OS X 10.4.4 4 / 4 Gigs Ram / 2 400 GB HDs
Pyro AV API 757 Firewire Video Capture Device
BTV Pro 5.4.1 Capture Software
Sony VCR Using RCA Outs

[/quote]

[geowharton]

Neon303,

Interlacing and compression are two different things and not related. Either compressed or noncompressed may be interlaced or not.

Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced
http://www.100fps.com/

[neon303]

I understand that compressed or non compressed video can be interlaced or not. My questions are this:

1) Is VHS naturally outputing a interlaced video to my capture card? If so, why aren't the interlaced grid lines apparent on the video capture when viewed on my computer screen?

2) What is the best compression codec for capturing? Best quality and biggest bang for the buck if my primary use is to watch archived VHS captures on my computer?

thanks in advance

[thecoalman]

If so, why aren't the interlaced grid lines apparent on the video capture when viewed on my computer screen?

IO mentioned using powerDVD above, the reason being because it and other software deinterlace on the fly as the video is being played which is probaly why you don't see any interlacing. It depends on what you are viewing it it in.

2) What is the best compression codec for capturing? Best quality and biggest bang for the buck if my primary use is to watch archived VHS captures on my computer?

HuffyUV is considered one of "the best". It's lossless but creates enormous files... something like 25-30GB per hour. I prefer DV because it's ver easy to backup, simply print them to tape.

[pijetro]

neon303 wrote:

1) Is VHS naturally outputing a interlaced video to my capture card? If so, why aren't the interlaced grid lines apparent on the video capture when viewed on my computer screen?

Yes, it's ouputting an interlaced video..
You DO see interlaced grid lines..Open up the video in Virtualdub, right click over the video, and go 2x or 4x size, and step across keyframe by keyframe...You'll see interlacing..

2) What is the best compression codec for capturing? Best quality and biggest bang for the buck if my primary use is to watch archived VHS captures on my computer?

To tell you the truth, most people choose to watch the output to Television, since that's what the original media was designed for..Since monitors have a progressive display, i'd suggest capturing straight to Mpeg, and create your DVD's from there..

[edDV]

I understand that compressed or non compressed video can be interlaced or not. My questions are this:

1) Is VHS naturally outputing a interlaced video to my capture card? If so, why aren't the interlaced grid lines apparent on the video capture when viewed on my computer screen?

2) What is the best compression codec for capturing? Best quality and biggest bang for the buck if my primary use is to watch archived VHS captures on my computer?

thanks in advance

You need to think through your goals for this video. BEST for what purpose.

Best for preservation of what is on the tape and best for TV display would be interlace, carefully time base corrected and carefully level corrected before capture. 75% of the correction is done before the capture card sees the video. Are you still saying you want the best? There are many threads in here on the fine points of getting from ~60% best quality into the 80% range and the project is ongoing.

Best for quick and dirty? Most would say a DVD recorder is best for that and getting better all the time. Unfortunately, DVD recorders have not yet been optimized for the special case of VHS (many errors to correct). They instead are optimized for very clean video off a cable box.

Best for progressive computer only display? You will accept poor motion and lousy TV display?

Best for highest compression at expense of display quality?

Define "Best".

[neon303]

Thanks for the post Ed. I will define "Best"

I want to have a clear, smooth moving, compressed video for viewing on my computer. An archived folder of all my old VHS tapes if you will. BUT, I ant to have the freedom to view these digital videos on a tv if I want to. But primarliy for video playback in quicktime or whatever.

I am truly looking for a simple "video capturing for dummy's" answer.

I am capturing VHS video to my computer.

1) Which video capture compression should I use when capturing? I want to preserve the smooth motion, the clear picture etc. I am slightly confused by this from the get go. I tried capturing with NO compression and not only do I not see the interlaced grid lines that should be present (since its a vhs capture) but the smooth motion is lossed. Shouldnt all that be LOSSLESS on NO compression?

2) I try capturing with DV NTSC compression (is this the best, biggest bang for the buck?). Now, the interlaced grid lines are apparent, but smoothness of motion is lost.

3) I take the DV NTSC compressed version and I deinterlace it with JES Deinterlacer with Both Fields. It doubles the filesize, but now I am satisfactory. The movie moves smoothly like the priginal tape.

SO, if I cant capture and get the smooth moving, clear picture from the get go (If I can please tell me how), then is there a way for a video software player to do what I did in JES on the fly?

Neon303
Mac G5 Dual 2.7 Ghz OS X 10.4.4 4 / 4 Gigs Ram / 2 400 GB HDs
Pyro AV API 757 Firewire Video Capture Device
BTV Pro 5.4.1 Capture Software
Sony VCR Using RCA Outs [/quote]

[edDV]

Thanks for the post Ed. I will define "Best"

I want to have a clear, smooth moving, compressed video for viewing on my computer. An archived folder of all my old VHS tapes if you will. BUT, I ant to have the freedom to view these digital videos on a tv if I want to. But primarliy for video playback in quicktime or whatever.

I am truly looking for a simple "video capturing for dummy's" answer.

I am capturing VHS video to my computer.

1) Which video capture compression should I use when capturing? I want to preserve the smooth motion, the clear picture etc. I am slightly confused by this from the get go. I tried capturing with NO compression and not only do I not see the interlaced grid lines that should be present (since its a vhs capture) but the smooth motion is lossed. Shouldnt all that be LOSSLESS on NO compression?

First thing to consider is whether you want to keep it in native resolution and interlace for best TV display (while still playing fine on computer with a proper player) or, deinterlacing for ease of computer display and/or greater compression. Deinterlacing is a complex subject. Film sources are a special case that we will skip for now. Simple deinterlacing methods toss 50% vertical resolution and 50% motion resolution (59.94 to 29.97 effective fps) and result in a 352x240 resolution. Other methods mix fields from differnent time samples resulting in blurs and/or motion artifacts.

Capture methods vary in equipment requirements. Your "CPU 2.5" will struggle with realtime compression while capturing. Uncompressed capture (including huffyuv) requires a fast hard disk system, lots of disk space and a multi step process to an encoded file.

Consider a hardware encoding capture device. Two sample models to consider are
MPeg2 to DVD: http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_pvrusb2.html
MPeg4: http://www.plextor.com/English/products/TV402U.htm

2) I try capturing with DV NTSC compression (is this the best, biggest bang for the buck?). Now, the interlaced grid lines are apparent, but smoothness of motion is lost.

3) I take the DV NTSC compressed version and I deinterlace it with JES Deinterlacer with Both Fields. It doubles the filesize, but now I am satisfactory. The movie moves smoothly like the priginal tape.

SO, if I cant capture and get the smooth moving, clear picture from the get go (If I can please tell me how), then is there a way for a video software player to do what I did in JES on the fly?

DV capture is best done with a hardware device like the Canopus ADVC or a DV camcorder with "analog pass through". Your computer is nowhere close to fast enough for realtime software DV encoding.

If you can't spend money, see the guides here for uncompressed capture using huffyuv lossless compression + MPeg (Mpeg2, divx, xvid, wmv, etc.) compression as a second step. This will take alot of time for the two step process vs. the real time hradware boxes.

There are many ways to do your project.

[thecoalman]

DV capture is best done with a hardware device like the Canopus ADVC or a DV camcorder with "analog pass through". Your computer is nowhere close to fast enough for realtime software DV encoding.

Actually... he does. He has one of those ADS boxes. Just noticed it myself. If that's what you are using for capture you should be capturing in DV as that is what is what is streaming over the firewire. You should not drop frames, you should not have any major problems at all unless the tapes you are capturing are in really bad shape.... That will give you the best qulaity for capture since the box has already done the conversion... once it hits the frewire its already in DV format. You're esssentially using the computer as recoreder. the box does all the work.

Let me ask you a question... have you actually captured some DV and converted it MPEG and authored any test clips?

[edDV]

I was going by
"I capture using a codec such as DVCPRO-NTSC."
and missed the signature.

He isn't using his Pyro AV API 757 box?

[neon303]

Still confused guys.

Let me ask you a question... have you actually captured some DV and converted it MPEG and authored any test clips?

Captured DV? As mentioned above, I am capturing VHS not DV Tapes. So no.

DV capture is best done with a hardware device like the Canopus ADVC or a DV camcorder with "analog pass through"

I know, if you look at my signature it mentions I am using Pyro Studios API 757 which is comparable to the Canopus ADVC.

First thing to consider is whether you want to keep it in native resolution and interlace for best TV display (while still playing fine on computer with a proper player) or, deinterlacing for ease of computer display and/or greater compression.

As mentioned above, I want to keep native resolution and interlace and be able to view deinterlaced through a player.

Simple deinterlacing methods toss 50% vertical resolution and 50% motion resolution (59.94 to 29.97 effective fps) and result in a 352x240 resolution. Other methods mix fields from differnent time samples resulting in blurs and/or motion artifacts.

This confuses me more. I captured at 640x480. I deinterlaced a captured video with JES Deinterlacer. It gave the video twice as many frames and made the file twice as large. It made the video move more smoothly, which I liked.

Guys, I dont know what else to ask but to repeat my original questions. How do I capture my VHS through my video card with the best compression while preserving the most original quality?

1) The original video is smooth moving.
2) The DV NTSC compressed capture is not.
3) The JES Deinterlaced, DV NTSC compressed video is smooth moving again. Maybe its not the deinterlacing that is making thiss smooth again. Maybe its something else, but its adding doublea mount of frames which gives it the appearance of the smooth moving orignal vhs tape.

Why do I have to capture, and then deinterlace? Why cant I capture the smoothness in one step?

[jagabo]

You're Pyro AV is a hardware DV encoding device. It takes in analog video and converts it to a DV stream. You should capture that stream on the computer as a DV AVI file. This will give you a file that is 720x480, 29.97 fps, interlaced, at a fixed ~13 GB/hr.

Convert that to 720x480 interlaced MPEG2 (do not deinterlace). Burn that MPEG2 data to DVD with some DVD mastering software (some mastering software will do the DV to MPEG2 conversion for you). The results of this will look exactly like the original source (with some minor quality loss from the lossy codecs of course) when you watch it on TV.

If you find a fast juddering motion (30 shakes per second) when you watch the final result on TV the MPEG encoder got the field order wrong. DV is normally bottom field first, make sure the MPEG encoder identifies it correctly.

[edDV]

Well you're confusing us as well.

You can't say you want to preserve interlace and then talk about deinterlacing it.

Lets start here and work out. Normal process is this.

1.VCR to ADS Pyro over composite or S-Video and audio connection.
ADS Pyro to computer over IEEE-1394 and capture as DV format in software (iMovie?).

Now you have a DV format file (13.5GB/hr.) on your computer. It will be 720x480/29.97 interlaced (59.94 fields per second). DV Should play OK on your Dual G5 Mac. You may or may not see interlace lines split during motion depending on the player you are using.

2. DO NOT DEINTERLACE the actual video file. Use a deinterlacing player instead.

3. Edit and filter the DV video as you wish.

4. Encode to your favorite archive format. Assuming this will go to DVD, you would encode interlaced MPeg2 (bottom field first) 720x480 or 352x480.

Now is this close to what you want to do?

[edDV]

...
This confuses me more. I captured at 640x480. I deinterlaced a captured video with JES Deinterlacer. It gave the video twice as many frames and made the file twice as large. It made the video move more smoothly, which I liked.

You can't capture 720x480i DV format video to 640x480 without rescaling it. Capture as DV format. If you rescale it, you are loosing the 5x DV compression and lowering quality.

If the JES deinterlacer was doubling the file size, it may have been performing a "line doubling" or interpolation of 59.94fps frames/sec. It has that capability but that is not what you should be doing. JES is the wrong program to use if you want to preserve resolution and interlace. Use iMovie or FCP.

[neon303]

Ed and Jagabo. I want to thank you for your patience and knowledge. And now....back to the dialogue

You can't say you want to preserve interlace and then talk about deinterlacing it.

Yes I can. I need to preserve the interlaced video for playback on a tv. But I also need a deinterlacing, on-the-fly video player to view my videos on my computer screen.

You're Pyro AV is a hardware DV encoding device. It takes in analog video and converts it to a DV stream. You should capture that stream on the computer as a DV AVI file. This will give you a file that is 720x480, 29.97 fps, interlaced, at a fixed ~13 GB/hr.

Understood. However, 720x480 stretches the image horizantal more than 640x480. 720x480 is native resolution for MiniDV digital tapes. I thought 640x480 seems more accurate of a resolution for VHS.

Convert that to 720x480 interlaced MPEG2 (do not deinterlace). Burn that MPEG2 data to DVD with some DVD mastering software (some mastering software will do the DV to MPEG2 conversion for you). The results of this will look exactly like the original source (with some minor quality loss from the lossy codecs of course) when you watch it on TV.

Why MPEG2? Which DVD mastering software do you suggest MAC and PC?

1.VCR to ADS Pyro over composite or S-Video and audio connection.
ADS Pyro to computer over IEEE-1394 and capture as DV format in software (iMovie?).

Not Imovie. I am using BTV Pro. IMovie has much less video settings to customize. It also thinks I have a camcorder attached and keeps trying to control a camcorder. Im not using a camcorder. I want a straight video capture og a VHS tape.

2. DO NOT DEINTERLACE the actual video file. Use a deinterlacing player instead.

Cool. Which deinterlacing player will give me te fluid, smooth playback on-the-fly like I achieved with the JES Deinterlacing?

I tried playing my DV-NTSC compressed capture in quicktime with the Deinterlace option checked. It got rid of the lines, but did not restore the smooth, fluid playback off the original VHS. When I ran the JES deinterlacer, this DID restore the smooth playback. Is there a video player that can do this, high quality, on-the-fly deinterlacing? Which software for mac/pc?

If the JES deinterlacer was doubling the file size, it may have been performing a "line doubling" or interpolation of 59.94fps frames/sec. It has that capability but that is not what you should be doing. JES is the wrong program to use if you want to preserve resolution and interlace. Use iMovie or FCP.

OK. But the JES deinterlace using both fields, doubling the frames, is the only thing so far that has shown the fluid, smooth motion of the original video. I tried playing the compressed DV-NTSC captured quicktime in Quicktime with de-interlaaced checked ON and although it gets rid of the lines, it doesnt have the fluid, smooth playback. Is there a deinterlacing player that will give me the JES quality I speak of on the fly?

[jagabo]

720x480 stretches the image horizantal more than 640x480. 720x480 is native resolution for MiniDV digital tapes. I thought 640x480 seems more accurate of a resolution for VHS.

There is only one resolution for NTSC DV, 720x480. Yes, when you view that with software that doesn't adjust the aspect ratio it will look wider than 4:3. While working with the video you should ignore the fact that the picture is too wide and has interlace comb lines. As has been said earlier, when viewing the video you can use a player that supports on-the-fly deinterlacing.

I'm sorry I can't more helpful to you as far as the Mac is concerned. Under Windows, Microsoft's DV decoder automatically BOB deinterlaces DV when you playback with Windows Media Player. Many other media players like Media Player Classic and VideoLAN's VLC Media Player have several different deinterlace options to choose from. These players also have aspect ratio settings so you can view 720x480 DV with the correct display aspect ratio. These work on quite modest computers by todays standards. Surely you can find a player on the Mac that will work.

Why MPEG2?

I'm assuming here you want to burn your video onto movie DVDs: because MPEG2 is the codec required for movie DVDs (well you can use MPEG1 in some circumstances). Set-top DVD players cannot play DV encoded video. Even if they could, you'd only get about 20 minutes on a DVD with DV's fixed bitrate.

Under Windows I use a few programs for making movie DVDs. Ulead DVD MovieFactory is an all-in-one type application that can capture DV from the firewire port, edit, convert to MPEG, master, and burn a DVD. I usually use TMPGEnc Plus to do MPEG encoding though. It has more options and better control of the encoding. I think it produces better quality video too.

IMovie has much less video settings to customize.

There isn't much to configure with DV capture. All the computer is doing is reading the already digital video from the firewire port and putting it in a file. And of course, most programs display the video so you can see what you're capturing. So there's nothing to specify except the filename.

It's possible to convert the DV to another codec while capturing -- this seems to be what you're doing. This is usually unadvisable because, it's extra work for the capture program, realtime encoders take shortcuts to make sure they don't fall behind -- leading to less than optimal results, and DV is a good format for editing.

Once you have captured and edited your video it's time to produce your final output. This can be any number of codecs depending on your needs. You can save it as DV back on tape, MPEG2 for DVD, MPEG4 for distribution (small file size) on the internet, etc.

[edDV]

Ed and Jagabo. I want to thank you for your patience and knowledge. And now....back to the dialogue

You can't say you want to preserve interlace and then talk about deinterlacing it.

Yes I can. I need to preserve the interlaced video for playback on a tv. But I also need a deinterlacing, on-the-fly video player to view my videos on my computer screen.

You need to be more forthcoming on your goals. It would also help if you updated your profile that shows Windows XP and a 2.5 GHz processor.

OK, your goals are to:
1. Make an interlaced DVD from your VHS captures at good quality.
2. Make a deinterlaced copy for computer only access.

For #1 there is much discussion in these forums. A simple approach is to test your MPeg2 encoder of choice at 720x480 and 352x480 at various bitrates and select one that meets your needs.

You're Pyro AV is a hardware DV encoding device. It takes in analog video and converts it to a DV stream. You should capture that stream on the computer as a DV AVI file. This will give you a file that is 720x480, 29.97 fps, interlaced, at a fixed ~13 GB/hr.

Understood. However, 720x480 stretches the image horizantal more than 640x480. 720x480 is native resolution for MiniDV digital tapes. I thought 640x480 seems more accurate of a resolution for VHS.

DV format 4:3 aspect is 720x480 and has non square pixels. Most encoders will accept 4:3 DV as an input. If you make a custom capture profile, quality will go down, file size will go up and you will also need custom settings for your encoder of choice.

Convert that to 720x480 interlaced MPEG2 (do not deinterlace). Burn that MPEG2 data to DVD with some DVD mastering software (some mastering software will do the DV to MPEG2 conversion for you). The results of this will look exactly like the original source (with some minor quality loss from the lossy codecs of course) when you watch it on TV.

Why MPEG2? Which DVD mastering software do you suggest MAC and PC?

The DVD standard is MPeg2. https://www.videohelp.com/dvd
If you want it to play on any DVD player you will follow the spec. For highest quality use 720x480. For longest playing time and acceptable quality use 352x480.

If you don't care about playing on a normal DVD player, other options exist such as divx, xvid, wmv h.264. Some forms of these will play on specific players. Try them and see if they work for you.

1.VCR to ADS Pyro over composite or S-Video and audio connection.
ADS Pyro to computer over IEEE-1394 and capture as DV format in software (iMovie?).

Not Imovie. I am using BTV Pro. IMovie has much less video settings to customize. It also thinks I have a camcorder attached and keeps trying to control a camcorder. Im not using a camcorder. I want a straight video capture og a VHS tape.

Use DV capture profiles in the first pass. Then separately encode from the DV file for DVD and your choice of computer format.

2. DO NOT DEINTERLACE the actual video file. Use a deinterlacing player instead.

Cool. Which deinterlacing player will give me te fluid, smooth playback on-the-fly like I achieved with the JES Deinterlacing?

I tried playing my DV-NTSC compressed capture in quicktime with the Deinterlace option checked. It got rid of the lines, but did not restore the smooth, fluid playback off the original VHS. When I ran the JES deinterlacer, this DID restore the smooth playback. Is there a video player that can do this, high quality, on-the-fly deinterlacing? Which software for mac/pc?

If the JES deinterlacer was doubling the file size, it may have been performing a "line doubling" or interpolation of 59.94fps frames/sec. It has that capability but that is not what you should be doing. JES is the wrong program to use if you want to preserve resolution and interlace. Use iMovie or FCP.

OK. But the JES deinterlace using both fields, doubling the frames, is the only thing so far that has shown the fluid, smooth motion of the original video. I tried playing the compressed DV-NTSC captured quicktime in Quicktime with de-interlaaced checked ON and although it gets rid of the lines, it doesnt have the fluid, smooth playback. Is there a deinterlacing player that will give me the JES quality I speak of on the fly?

The Quicktime player should work fine playing DV format with that machine. Maybe the deinterlacing mode isn't adequate. Best to ask about Mac DV players in the Mac forum.

[whitejremiah]

what i'd suggest is authoring the copy for tv use to dvd, as was mentioned then taking the computer use copy, and compress it with something like virtualdub (not sure if a mac equivelent exists, or if you could transfer the files over to a windows pc) and compress using x.264 (if your gonna be playing it back on a rather powerful pc anyhow) otherwise xvid or divx would be other options, i think there's decoders available for these formats on a mac (i havent used a mac to speak of since the good ol number mucher days.....)yes, i know this would be kind of a pain because it would require two separate conversions, but the only real format that would be compatable with both computer and tv would be DVD and if your intending on playing back on a computer, your probably best off to use something like divx/xvid/x.264 anyhow because of the sheer amount of space that a raw dvd takes....particularly if your doing a large set of movies..

[edDV]

The Mac will do h.264 but expect long encoding times.
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/technologies/h264/

[neon303]

what i'd suggest is authoring the copy for tv use to dvd, as was mentioned then taking the computer use copy, and compress it with something like virtualdub

Virtual Dub will not open my .dv video captured files. Which program will open my .dv so I can create my computer playback version of my video. And at what point is the true 640x480 display of my video restored. 720x480 stretches the image.

1.VCR to ADS Pyro over composite or S-Video and audio connection.
ADS Pyro to computer over IEEE-1394 and capture as DV format in software (iMovie?).

Will S-Video make a big difference over composite or is it overkill for an already poor quality given from a VHS signal?

Convert that to 720x480 interlaced MPEG2 (do not deinterlace). Burn that MPEG2 data to DVD with some DVD mastering software. The results of this will look exactly like the original source (with some minor quality loss from the lossy codecs of course) when you watch it on TV.

Ok, but at what point does the display of my vhs capture return to a 640x480 since that is more a true dimension of the original signal from VHS, 720x480 stretches the picture. If I capture at 720x480 arent I already stretching the image at the source? Still trying to grasp this. Logically I would think it would be better at the source to capture at 640x480 then the image is getting stretched.

JES is the wrong program to use if you want to preserve resolution and interlace. Use iMovie or FCP.

So if I want a deinterlaced version of my video are you suggesting FCP or Imovie to create the deinterlaced version. If not, which program is best to create a deinterlaced version?

Under Windows, Microsoft's DV decoder automatically BOB deinterlaces DV when you playback with Windows Media Player. Many other media players like Media Player Classic and VideoLAN's VLC Media Player have several different deinterlace options to choose from

I tried playing the .dv in VLC Player and none of the deinterlace options work well, in fact Bob makes the video all shaky. Is this because I need to convert to div-x or x.264 first?

I will explore the best route for creating the mpeg2 dvd version. As for the computer viewing version, I tried compressing my .dv with Div X into an avi and it looked like crap. So i assume, I need to play with the gizillion options in the divx settings to find the best quality?

[jagabo]

Virtual Dub will not open my .dv video captured files.

You probably need a VFW based DV codec. Try the Panasonic DV codec.

Ok, but at what point does the display of my vhs capture return to a 640x480 since that is more a true dimension of the original signal from VHS, 720x480 stretches the picture. If I capture at 720x480 arent I already stretching the image at the source? Still trying to grasp this. Logically I would think it would be better at the source to capture at 640x480 then the image is getting stretched.

What you seem to be missing is that the pixel dimension of the frame is not the same as the display aspect ratio of the video. NTSC DV and DVD use 720x480 for both 4:3 and 16:9 video (DVD can also use 704x480, 352x480 and 352x240). No other frames sizes are legal for NTSC DVD or DV. Your DVD player is designed to display 720x480 MPEG2 with a 4:3 or 16:9 aspect ratio. Any DVD player software you use on the PC will also display with the correct aspect ratio.

[edDV]

Now it isn't clear if you are commiting your "computer" playback to the Mac world or generic playback on any PC. MPeg2 is the standard format for DVD. You need to evaluate the various progressive codecs for playback issues on the various progressive displays from PC's to cellphones. Popular MPeg4 based formats (e.g. divx, xvid, wmv, h.263, h.264, ...), or Quicktime (various) or flashvideo all have pro and con issues for playback on various devices. Most encoders will accept 720x480 DV format as an input and output at your desired progressive resolution (e.g.640x480, 352x480, 320x480, whatever). If you don't know where to start, try divx (PC centric) or h.264 (Quicktime or AVI wrapper). Since you have a new Mac, you might want to explore the Mac h.264 encoding tools first.

VLC, Windows Media Player or most any DVD playback software should play DV format at correct aspect ratio. DV requires a fast computer to play smoothly. Yours is fast enough. If the jerkyness you are seeing is localized to moving objects or moving frames, you may have a field order problem (DV uses bottom field first).

1.VCR to ADS Pyro over composite or S-Video and audio connection.
ADS Pyro to computer over IEEE-1394 and capture as DV format in software (iMovie?).

Will S-Video make a big difference over composite or is it overkill for an already poor quality given from a VHS signal?

If you are using a S-VHS deck with S-Video out, use S-Video to the Pyro.

Convert that to 720x480 interlaced MPEG2 (do not deinterlace). Burn that MPEG2 data to DVD with some DVD mastering software. The results of this will look exactly like the original source (with some minor quality loss from the lossy codecs of course) when you watch it on TV.

Ok, but at what point does the display of my vhs capture return to a 640x480 since that is more a true dimension of the original signal from VHS, 720x480 stretches the picture. If I capture at 720x480 arent I already stretching the image at the source? Still trying to grasp this. Logically I would think it would be better at the source to capture at 640x480 then the image is getting stretched.

JES is the wrong program to use if you want to preserve resolution and interlace. Use iMovie or FCP.

So if I want a deinterlaced version of my video are you suggesting FCP or Imovie to create the deinterlaced version. If not, which program is best to create a deinterlaced version?

First you need to get a clean DV format capture using appropriate capture software (iMovie, etc.). Make sure this file plays smoothly when played directly or after MPeg2 encoding for DVD. Make a test DVD to make sure everything is working for computer and TV playback.

Once you have your DV format file on hard disk, you can import that file into JES or other encoder (e.g. Quicktime h.264) and do whatever you want. Just don't use JES as your DV capture program. Use iMovie or something else.

Under Windows, Microsoft's DV decoder automatically BOB deinterlaces DV when you playback with Windows Media Player. Many other media players like Media Player Classic and VideoLAN's VLC Media Player have several different deinterlace options to choose from

I tried playing the .dv in VLC Player and none of the deinterlace options work well, in fact Bob makes the video all shaky. Is this because I need to convert to div-x or x.264 first?

It should play smoothly. Make sure your field order is correct in your capture program. That said, deinterlacing still has motion artifacts such as double images during pans or moving objects appearing as blobs. These are deinterlacing artifacts. Get the DV file working correctly before encoding further.

I will explore the best route for creating the mpeg2 dvd version. As for the computer viewing version, I tried compressing my .dv with Div X into an avi and it looked like crap. So i assume, I need to play with the gizillion options in the divx settings to find the best quality?

Why don't you first make a DVD with the standard Mac software and make sure that process is working and you have the Mac basics down. Next test other MPeg2 encoders if you want. Next test the progressive encoders (JES, divx, h.264, etc.). One step at a time.

[neon303]

Thanks for all your help. I am getting closer to understanding this.

1) When I make the Mpeg2 DVD version, author it to DVD, and play it in my dvd player onto my television, is it possible to get the same dimensions of 640x480 like the original VHS tape would display or is it going to be stretching it and keeping the 720x480 display from the dv capture?

2) Secondly, I have been experimenting exporting the dv stream to different formats Quicktime, Mpeg4, using h.264, div-x etc. They are al coming out pretty crappy. Any guidance on this would be helpful. I am trying to find the optimal compression and it seems hard to find.

3) I am still not embracing the deinterlace concept. As mentioned before, If I take a dv stream video and deinterlace it using "both fields" (which doubles the amount of frames) this new version moves more smoothly like the original vhs video. How can I insure this smoothness in the Mpeg2 process as well as creating my compressed versions for computer playback? I wish I could show you the 2 videos so you understand what I mean by smoothness. Or do you?

[thecoalman]

is it possible to get the same dimensions of 640x480 like the original VHS tape would display or is it going to be stretching it and keeping the 720x480

You still have your wires crossed... :P The aspect is determined by however you author the DVD which in your case will be 4:3 which will display full screen, the resolution is irrelevant. For example 352x480 is a compliant DVD resolution and if displyed at a 1:1 aspect wouldn't look correct for anything. You DVD player takes this skewed video and will will stretch it to full screen giving you the correct aspect.

Just add a little more confusion.... :P 16:9 and 4:3 both use the same resolution of 720x480, again it depends on how you author it. For 16:9 the DVD playerts sees the 16:9 flag and adds the black bars top and bottom, squeezing the video into a 16:9 aspect.

[edDV]

VHS has nothing to do with 640x480. It is 4:3 aspect ratio if that is what you mean.

If you capture VHS with your Pyro to DV format it will be 720x480 and also 4:3 aspect ratio. After you encode to DVD 720x480 MPeg2, the DVD player will play it to your TV in 4:3 aspect ratio.

Do this and stop trying to be fancy.

1. Capture sample VHS video through the Pyro into iMovie in DV format.
2. Encode and burn a DVD in iDVD at 720x480 and high quality setting.

This should look good and will be your standard of comparison.

Later you can try 352x480, other MPeg2 settings, H.264, Divx, etc. and compare.

[krazyfoo]

ive just read some of the most patient and helpful replies ive ever seen. its stunning really. and thx for clearing some things up ive wondered about

[Nelson37]

Neo : You are confusing what you are seeing with what you actually have.

Understand that virtually any prog you use to display the video is CHANGING it in some way. Many progs will correct the aspect ratio, some do not. Many will de-interlace on the fly, some do not.

Your 640x480 looks stretched on the DVD player because the encoding program is resizing it to 720x480, which it must be for DVD. Most PC players would play both resolutions identically.

The interlacing issue - De-Interlacing is BAD. If this is the only way you get smooth motion, it is almost a certainty that the field order is being reversed at some point. FIX THIS FIRST, it is leading you to some incorrect conclusions and procedures.

Resolution of the VHS - It doesn't have one. When you capture it at 640x480, you have a 640x480 video. If you cap at 720x480, you have a 720x480 video. You could also cap at 352x480, and 480x480, and correct playback, provided by most software (but not all) players and almost all DVD standalone units, would look almost identical for all these resolutions, in terms of aspect ratio.

Some of these concepts are difficult to get your head around. The best way I can think of to put it is that you are looking at the issue from the wrong direction, in terms of where things are created or caused by.