Flea Markets are now guilty of piracy

[hech54]

Federal Court Finds New Jersey Flea Market Responsible For Facilitating Sales Of Pirated Music
04-05-2006
A federal court in New Jersey has ruled that a Columbus, N.J., flea market, which had repeatedly ignored numerous demands to curtail the widespread sale of pirated CDs and cassettes, is liable for copyright infringement.

In a case brought by the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), on behalf of the major record companies, the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey granted summary judgment in favor of the music companies against Columbus Flea World LLC and Columbus Farmers Market LLC (owners of the Columbus Farmers Market). Damages, which will be determined at a later date, could range from more than $500,000 to $125 million under the copyright laws.

"The court has spoken plainly that ignorance is no defense for flea markets which profit by turning a blind eye to piracy," said Mitch Bainwol, Chairman and CEO of the Recording Industry Association of America. "We work hard to offer educational materials and training to flea market owners so that pirated CDs are not sold on the premises. When flea markets become pirate music bazaars, no one wins -- those who create and bring music to the public lose out, as do consumers who get an inferior product."

The record companies' lawsuit, filed in October 2003, came after years of warnings and outreach to the owners of Columbus Farmers Market. Multiple letters from RIAA officials were sent to the management of the market in recent years. There were three state and local law enforcement raids. In just a single raid in 2000, 26 separate vendors were arrested for selling various types of counterfeit merchandise and more than 14,500 illegal CDs and cassettes were seized

This ruling follows a similar decision in 2004 by a federal court in California. In that decision, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of California found that the owner and operator of the Marysville Flea Market was liable for the widespread copyright infringement occurring on market premises.

[lordsmurf]

And we all know eBay prides itself as being the largest flea market in the world. Hmmm....

[BJ_M]

that means that flea markets would be responsible for policing the actions of any of their vendors in respect to anything they sell (i.e. stolen, not legal) ...

otherwise they can be charged with selling stolen merchandise

[hech54]

that means that flea markets would be responsible for policing the actions of any of their vendors in respect to anything they sell (i.e. stolen, not legal) ...

otherwise they can be charged with selling stolen merchandise

Amazing....everyone knows that all of the Stanley tape measures, Estwing hammers, etc etc etc found at flea markets were most likely stolen from Lowe's or Home Depot....but everyone turns a blind eye.
A dirtball thief is no different than a dirtball pirate in my opinion.

[BJ_M]

i (really) didnt know that ....

then again i dont go to too many flea markets ,.

[hech54]

I worked at two big home improvement centers and was a pretty damn good dirtball catcher. MANY vendors completely abandoned their stands at the flea market when I came around.
I couldn't legally do anything about them (then and there) but I really enjoyed getting in their faces...but ever so politely.
I was never part of the Loss Prevention departments in these stores....so believe it or not I had more abilities than the LP people did. I could basically walk up and harass the shit out of a dirtball and get away with it.
I used to yell questions at them from like 40 feet away...questions like "Wow...10 - $40 circular saw blades?...I'm glad you are paying for those and not me"...smiling the whole time of course...
I miss those days....sometimes...

[ZAPPER]

Ooooh, tuff call. I mean that I agree that it is likely that a fair percentage of the product at Flea markets is from, lets say questionable origins. But if the owner operator has at least taken some fair steps to try and prevent this, why should they be prosecuted? If the owner operator has in their lease agreement that no stolen or pirated property is to be sold at the flea market and welcomes law enforcement onto the site to inspect or investigate and reports any obviously apparent illeagle activities, then why hold them responceable? What about pawn shops and E-bay?

Now I know that the story says that the operator in this case didn't seem to respond to legal threats, but what exactly were they supposed to do that they didn't? If legal authorities knew of the events taking place why didn't they crack down faster and harder on the vendors? (Oh yeah, the owner operator owns a large chunk of realestate and has a legal paper trail that is so much easier to follow to a legal bank account and legal insurance. Silly me) The owner may or may not have the deepest pockets, but I guarentee that the reason that the law is going after them is because their pockets are the easiest to get into!

I am not sticking up for all of the owner operators that are out there, and I am sure that some are as guilty as sin too. But I happen to casually know a couple of fleamarket operators and it pisses me off to think that these very hard working folks who despite the numbers are actually working on a very tight margin will have to some day deal with this very ______ up issue!

Sorry, light profanity edit

[Doramius]

I agree and don't think the flea market should be held accountable as long as they have appropriate measures letting their vendors know it will not be tolerated if they are caught.

I've seen people sell illegal copies of movies "before" they are actually released on DVD legitimately at the local swap meet. SOme are people who come in as customers, pay their $1 entrance fee, then pull out 10 copies of "ELF" (this was about a year ago) and start offering them to people like htey were a vendor. If a security person caught them, they were immediately thrown out and the product destroyed (right out in the open). But there are actual vendors who know the security people and have the "hidden" stock. If the vendor gets caught they are also thrown out and their selling rights revoked and are fined heavily.

Still, there a re vendors who do it. The managers & security people are doing their job to prevent it. So if the MPAA & RIAA comes after them, couldn't they counter sue? Being charged with turning a third eye and being told ignorance is not an excuse seems pretty hard strung for a case, if the measures above are taken. Couldn't I sue the MPAA & RIAA for not doing their job? Obviously pirating still happens. Oh, they might be fighting it here & there, but it's still happening. Just because they don't know it's happening or where is just a lame excuse and perhaps they are turning a third eye to a profitable standpoint.

Poppycock!!! They need to go back to michigan and find more REAL pirates.

[ZAPPER]

Sorry, I am back. I thought that I had cooled down over this but it seems to keep simmering in my head. I am not a pirate nor do I own or seek out any pirated DVDs that I know of. There are only maybe 30 DVDs laying around the house, all of them kids stuff out of the bargin bin or gifts to the kids from other family.

Until just now, I kind of believed that pirating was wrong. Albeit an almost victomless crime except for the overly greedy. Personally I don't see the need in spending more than five to ten bucks on a flick for my personal collection. In my opinion movie entertainment just isn't all that high on my list of priorties.

So you want to stop movie pirating? Simple. Quit making movies! I mean here it is. Some fat cat with 100 million dollars, more money than I would spend in my whole life, wants more money. Why?

Screw'em. I say that after a short in theator run it should just become public domain.

Make a hundred or so ever so slightly different or secrectly marked copies of the original release and distribute them to a hundred or so different distribution houses. That way when a pirated version shows up on the street before it has become public domain, the producer can just sue the one distribution house that lost control of its security. I gaurentee that when you start to hold those responseble for a films security accountable, things will tighten up!

I couldn't care less for Hollywood and the RIAA. It would suit me just fine if the big quake took them both off of the map!


ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!! I am in a foul mood today! If I can't find a Hollywood type or a lawyer I am gonna have to kick the dog and beat the kids!

Friggin
Fraggin
Fuggin
Mumble mumble.....

[hudsonf]

It would suit me just fine if the big quake took them both off of the map!

Not until after my son moves back east in May.

[ZAPPER]

It would suit me just fine if the big quake took them both off of the map!

Not until after my son moves back east in May.

You know that there are very few folks that I would really like to see harm come to. And I concede that there is a place for lawyers and movie producers and companies in the world. And I am the first to jump up and tout capitalism and free speech and fair play. But why do some people have to be so stupid about how they go about things?

Money breeds greed, I guess.

What really set me off on this little tirade, is the thought of the guy that owns a local flea market. I don't really know him, but have heard that the land was passed down to him. I am sure that the taxes are eating him alive as everything around him goes to new zonning. I have seen him on occassion doing maintainence to the property and even argueing with vendors to collect the rent. It is only a matter of time before he sells out (poor little guy, he will probably only get a few million for the land) The point is that this guy is a working man, he collects the rent and does the maintainence. He empties the garbage cans and mows the grass. Why should he be doing the policing? If the county needs some revenue, then they should send in some cops to bust the the ones selling the contraband. And at other flea markets the INS could fill trainloads of illegals. but that is for another forum.

[Supreme2k]

When I was working for U-Haul (truck rental), I once saw a guy trying to sell one of our missing trucks. To make matters worse, he was the one who rented it and reported it as stolen.

While U-Haul does sell its old cr... equipment, they remove all corporate markings and serial numbers before doing so. The stuff that I've seen at the flea markets has nothing removed, so we can trace it back to a specific store.

As far as holding the owners responsible, that's total BS. Much of the stuff being sold is not of the plain-white-envelope variety. The pirates do some quality, professional work now, including pressing (not burned) and silk-screening the labels. My wife bought a couple of screeners at a flea market for a couple of bucks each, and you'd be hard pressed to tell them from a "genuine" release. Is it her fault that she doesn't check the DVD release schedule? As far as price goes, there's stuff we buy at dollar tree (nothing-over-$1 store) that is sold at other retailers for as much as 10x what we spend (exact same brand/size/type/etc.).

[budz]

And we all know eBay prides itself as being the largest flea market in the world. Hmmm....

Good one!!!

A few years ago here in Hawaii they busted a group of 5 who were selling bootleg dvds, playstation and xbox games. They were selling them in bars and at the local flea market at Aloha Stadium.

[Doramius]

As far as holding the owners responsible, that's total BS. Much of the stuff being sold is not of the plain-white-envelope variety. The pirates do some quality, professional work now, including pressing (not burned) and silk-screening the labels. My wife bought a couple of screeners at a flea market for a couple of bucks each, and you'd be hard pressed to tell them from a "genuine" release.

Until you brought it home and saw the silhouette of a persons head walk across the screen during opening titles.

ALso for the Uhaul, can't they just track the VIN#. You need title work for the truck and the VIN is usually verified. You might be able to get away with it if you try to get the title for the truck about 2-5 years later in a different state. Even then the system is getting tighter and newer vehicles have their VIN spotted electronically almost anywhere in the US. You basically have to grind off the VINs and get one off a wreck at a Junk-Yard, but then you gotta match odometer & a whole bunch of other crap. Not an easy task for any vehicle made after 95'. And is fairly difficult for most vehicles from late 70's until 95'.

[drjtech]

My wife bought a couple of screeners at a flea market for a couple of bucks each, and you'd be hard pressed to tell them from a "genuine" release.

Until you brought it home and saw the silhouette of a persons head walk across the screen during opening titles.

Screeners don't have silhouettes, popcorn munching sounds, etc. You're thinking of camcorder copies. Screeners typically have running timecodes and "Do not duplicate. Property of ****" banners.

Or, so I've been told.

-drj

[BJ_M]

running timecodes = work prints

"Do not duplicate. Property of ****" banners. = screeners

silhouettes, popcorn munching sounds = cams (though often called TC in some cases, true TC are ussually done at the projector or a more controlled setup)

[Supreme2k]

Until you brought it home and saw the silhouette of a persons head walk across the screen during opening titles.

The screeners didn't even have the "Do Not Copy" message.

ALso for the Uhaul, can't they just track the VIN#...

Actually, we just call the cops and they're arrested on the spot. Like I said, if the graphics and serial nmbers haven't been removed, it's not a "For Sale" piece of sh.. equipment. We simply call up the center from which it was stolen and they get a police report to us showing that it was reported stolen (reported by the person trying to sell it).

[Doramius]

Well, technically it was stolen......by the renter.