Subs out of sync; systematic error or protection scheme?

[ClaudiuS01]

I've done quite a few dvdr's which I added a new language. Usually it works:

Rip in file-mode.
Demux in ifo-mode.
Rip subs with subrip.
Load all incl. new subs in DVDlab pro.
Remux.

A few movies fails. Lately one which resulted in subs showing about 20 sec. too late (out of sync). Not only the new subs, but even the ripped ones.

Dvddecrypter shows:
VTS_01 PGC1 [01:36:38]
VTS_01 PGC2 [01:37:57]
VTS_01 PGC3 [00:00:00]
VTS_01 PGC4 [00:00:00]

Tried to demux both, but subs wont fit any.

Any suggestions to what is teasing me?

Thanx in advance

ClaudiuS

[yoda313]

Could they be a different region? You're pal could it be a ntsc video?

[ClaudiuS01]

Nope.

[manono]

I'm baffled by your workflow. Why do you need DVDLab Pro at all? Why are you performing OCR at all? You have subs in some image based format to begin with, don't you, maybe IDX/SUB?

Anyway, you mentioned demuxing in IFO Mode. You can also demux the DVD already on the hard drive using PGCDemux. If you are dumuxing the subs, then in what format are they? IDX/SUB maybe? Anyway, to keep from having to OCR, use VobSub Configure to browse to the IFO and then demux the subs into IDX/SUB format. At that point, if they're out of synch, resynch them using the Sub Cutter utility that also comes with VobSub. It'll reset the timestamps of the IDX file. Then use SubToSup to go from IDX/SUB to SUP subtitle files. Use an authoring app that accepts SUP files, such as Muxman or IFOEdit.

I've had out of synch subs before when OCRing with SubRip that weren't out of synch when OCR'd with Sub Resynch (also in the VobSub package, although it accepts IDX/SUB as input).

But I probably don't understand 100% what you're doing and why you're doing it, so set me straight.

[ClaudiuS01]

Thanx for your answer, manono, you're always helpful.

DVDlab pro is because I found a guide to add subs to dvd's, and thereby found a solution to 1 problem. I'm used to OCR'ed subs from years with dvdrips, so I found it easy to use and not less to sync these files as I had the tools (and skills for that).

Beside, I've tried PGCDemux, Vobedit, Ifoedit, PGCEdit and several other tools for various small things, but never really used them and got really aquainted with them.
I guess 1 reason is that fx. PGCEdit is overwhelming to open (like: Oops, you better leave things untouched in here). Another reason is that guides and dokumentation for these programmes often looses me three lines down the text in technicalities.

But I guess there is no way around anymore; I have to read the manuals, to get a better grip of it.

Any readings you can advise?

thanx,

ClaudiuS

[manono]

Hi-

I still don't completely understand. I assume this is DVD2DVD, with maybe the DVD reencoded if not a DVD5 to begin with, and subs added, or maybe replacing a sub stream already on the DVD. These subs come from somewhere else, and are in IDX/SUB format? They must be if you're having to OCR them. Am I anywhere near close?

Sometimes the subs are out of synch. Are these fansubs, or are they from a different DVD? Either way, they weren't from your DVD and it's understandable that they may not be in synch with yours, as there may have been different logos or other pre-movie crap before the actual movie started. Or maybe they synched them to the movie itself, and ignored any logos. I explained how to resynch IDX/SUB subs in the previous post. It's hard to guess at the delay, author, guess again, etc. I sometimes make a quick 1-pass XviD AVI at quant 3 of the movie, and play it with the IDX/SUB or SRT or SSA subs to find out the delay. Then I adjust the delay of the IDX/SUB (or SRT, or SSA) files, and then convert them to SUP for authoring, as described earlier. I've never used DVDLab Pro, so I can't help you there. I'm not even sure I can help you here.

DVDlab pro is because I found a guide to add subs to dvd's

It's easy to add or replace subs in a DVD. You can do it with any authoring program. I use Muxman, and then stick that newly authored DVD of the movie into the original DVD which has the menus and maybe extras using the "Replace" button of VobBlanker. If the subs have to be "turned on", then PGCEdit's the app for that. That is, if there are, for example, 3 sub streams originally, and you add a 4th, the IFOs don't know anything about that new stream until you change them, using PGCEdit in my case. If the sub colors have to be changed, as they usually do, then it's good for that, too. And if you want to change the subtitle menu to edit it to reflect the new subtitle stream, well, that's up to you. Maybe that's what you're doing in DVDLab Pro.

Yeah, PGCEdit is kind of overwhelming at first, but, in my opinion, indispensible if you do this kind of work very often. One good thing about it is that it saves the IFOs as soon as you open a DVD. So if you somehow mess up, you just replace the IFOs and start again.

Any readings you can advise?

Not really, except there is a nice collection of guides at the PGCEdit site:

https://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/

The "Change default audio streams with PgcEdit" guide by UncasMS takes you to the same place in PGCEdit where you turn on your new subtitle stream and change the sub colors.

If you have a good thing going with DVDLab Pro, then I shouldn't try and change your methods, I guess. But maybe you'll get some ideas about how to resynch the subs from this discussion.

[ClaudiuS01]

My project is a dvd region 2 made regionfree with 8 subs in different language, but no danish subs.
I would like to exchange 1 sub (Hungarian) with another (danish) and correct the menu vob to show danish instead of hungarian.
I've preparede the menu by making the new bmp so far. But project hangs in that subs are out of sync, and the way I work have been ok many times, so I'm stuck here

Would like to understand why they're out of sync, to prevent this from happening again, and of cause fix it now.

1 thing that puzzles me is that dvddecryptor shows 2 movies, 1 being 1 minute and 19 secs longer than the other. (I know there is only 1 movie on dvd).

Btw, tried to remux with muxman. It made all the vobfiles, but came out with an error: reference to not present (unit) *32 (dont recall the exact phrase) and failed to make the structure and navigation-files.
ClaudiuS

[manono]

Usually when you see a movie with 2 different lengths in the same VTS, it means there are 2 different versions of it, like the theatrical and the extended versions. The movie is on the DVD only once, but the extra footage will be played when you choose the extended (or SE, or CE, or DC, etc.) version, but not played when you choose the theatrical version. That's usually the way it goes. I don't know if that's true in your case, or if that's the reason you get out-of-synch subs.

I've seen more than once on this site that DVDLab Pro has been the cause of out-of-synch subtitles. I don't know if that's true in your case, but I wouldn't discount the possibility. You could test by doing a quick author job without a menu using Muxman instead of DVDLab Pro (Muxman requires the subs in SUP format). Then play it back, ignoring the fact that at that point the sub colors are all wrong.

reference to not present (unit) *32 (dont recall the exact phrase)

Delete the last cell from the Celltimes.txt. Don't worry about it. It's not a real chapter.

[ClaudiuS01]

That helped a lot, who could guess that you had to delete the last chapter. First attempt had subs placed in the middle of screen. So I found out how important it is to put it right from the start, when you make the sup file. Anyway they are all in sync.

My own new subs are as expected white, but all others (ripped with PGCDemux has an odd color (everytime a new 1). Changed the one in pgcedit that looked most like it to white, and they are white now, but still with red and blue edges.
Can I change all colors in the color lookup table to white, and will it help?

ClaudiuS

[manono]

Hi-

So they're in synch now? Good. That's half the battle. If you ever have a problem with the position of the subs (too high or too low on the screen), it can be fixed using DVDSubEdit. There's a guide on this site for its use.

Now, about fixing the colors. You want all the sub colors white, and all the sub outlines what? Black? The other color is the Alias color. It will be between the outline and the main color. You can fool around with adjusting the colors in the CLUT (Color LookUp Table) until you have what you want. There can be a problem though. If one of the colors is the main color for the new added subs, and the outline color for the old subs (or vice-versa), then you have a problem. But from what you said last time, that may not be the case. I don't know if the Alias is supposed to be white (main color) or black (outline color). I think it should be black, unless you really do have 3 color subs. So, I would change that red and blue both to black (or whichever outline color you prefer) and hope for the best.

[ClaudiuS01]

Hehe, that's exactly what I did. So now I have a dvd that plays my danish subs and the others in fine white easy readable color.
That is if I choose to play movie and Not the extended version.

Found out that equal numbers in subs stream is for movie, unequal is for extended version. But they dont come out that way, the way I put them in. Muxman only has 8 possible subs, and on original there was 16 streams, thus giving 8 subs-streams for each version. Haven't found out if there's a way around that.

Besides it shows to be very hard to change the background picture for subsmenu. For some reason the usual way with ifoedit, tmpgenc and vobsub doesnt work, and dvdremake pro tries to import and looks ok, but fails to import the vob. Giving an error in log like: 540:dvd,ccp or something like it.

Finaly managed to insert the new background for subsmenu using menuedit. Only one thing left to find out, I think: Highlight got up in smoke on that menu. It's not possible to see what you choose on menu, rendering it close, but still unusable.

Could just burn the movie and skip the menus, but I'm a sportsman and beside I learn a LOT from this. Even PGCEdit starts to look a bit less scary.

ClaudiuS

[manono]

So, almost there. You just need the working buttons. Don't despair.

Finaly managed to insert the new background for subsmenu using menuedit. Only one thing left to find out, I think: Highlight got up in smoke on that menu. It's not possible to see what you choose on menu, rendering it close, but still unusable.

When creating the subtitle menu vob, did you have a subtitle stream to mux in? Maybe not. Open PGCDemux. Set it to demux the video stream, the audio stream (if any) and the subpic stream. Open the menu vob, set Mode to Single Cell and PGC Selection Domain to Menu. Choose the right menu from the dropdown window. Easier said than done. VobBlanker can help here because it'll show you a pic. Or maybe MenuEdit. Or trial and error until you get the one you want. Author using whatever you want. I use Muxman. It can take the edited BMP as a source, along with the audio and SUP file. So, after authoring, you'll have an edited subtitle menu vob which you want to replace in the menu. I would use VobBlanker for the job. You say it can be done using MenuEdit. If so, show me how. If it doesn't work for some reason (actually I've never done what I've just described), then try this next way. It's more complex, but it's guaranteed and I've used it at least half a dozen times, always with success:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=555936#post555936

Found out that equal numbers in subs stream is for movie, unequal is for extended version. But they dont come out that way, the way I put them in. Muxman only has 8 possible subs, and on original there was 16 streams, thus giving 8 subs-streams for each version. Haven't found out if there's a way around that.

Unfortunately, you have to use the Pro version of Muxman (costs money) to be able to use more subtitle streams. Open the original DVD in PGCEdit. Go to that subtitle place. Are there really 16 sub streams, or only 8 (2 per language, LB and WS, with the even numbered subs being for WS, and the odd numbered subs being PS, something like that)? If only 8, I have an idea what you can do. If 16, then you can author using IFOEdit. I don't know how many streams it will accept. I did a short test with it, and it seems to be able to take the full 32 streams. Here's a guide:

http://www.doom9.org/mpg/ifoedit-dvdauthor.htm

[jeanl]

Hi-
Now, about fixing the colors. You want all the sub colors white, and all the sub outlines what? Black? The other color is the Alias color. It will be between the outline and the main color. You can fool around with adjusting the colors in the CLUT (Color LookUp Table) until you have what you want. There can be a problem though. If one of the colors is the main color for the new added subs, and the outline color for the old subs (or vice-versa), then you have a problem.

Just in passing, DVDSubEdit lets you handle that very easily. You can reassigne a new CLUT tile to each of your pixels in your subs (for example, assining 1-2-3-4 for the pixels in your first stream and 5-6-7-8 for the pixels in your second stream). DVDSubEdit also allows you to modify the CLUT at the same time, so you can see immediately what your final subs will look like...
jeanl
P.S. DVDSubEdit also does resynchronization, by the way...

[manono]

Hi jeanl-

Have you taken pity on me fumbling around trying to help out ClaudiuS01? You know, sometime after writing that post, I found CoNS' newest guide for DVDSubEdit, and noticed that he covered that topic, and I was going to suggest it to ClaudiuS01 if he had that problem. But it didn't seem he did. I've had that problem in the past when adding subs, and have had to go back to the start and assign different basic colors to the subs, this in MaestroSBT. It's good to know there's an easy way out of the problem if and when it comes up again.

As for the synch problems, I can't explain it other than DVDLab Pro somehow messing it up. Especially since after authoring with Muxman they were in synch. But again, it's good to know there's another and maybe easier solution.

Thanks for the input, and thanks for DVDSubEdit, among your other little gems, FixVTS and MenuShrink. I use the latter 2 with some regularity, but haven't had to use DVDSubEdit yet in my own work, and that's why I'm still unfamiliar with all it can do.

[jeanl]

no problem manono! I'm not sure why the sync got messed up... but I admire you for helping from afar like that, really tricky... Looks like ClaudiusS01 got most of the way though!
Jeanl

[Soixante]

Dont mean to hijack,but can someone help.I just started using Dvdsubedit(1st time) because it was just what i am looking for.The problem every time i try to load the Vobs the programme shuts down with a windows error.Just so i dont waste any ones time the vobs are in Ntsc format if that helps.
Tia[/img]

[jeanl]

Soixante, I'm responding here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=287194&highlight=dvdsubedit

jeanl

[ClaudiuS01]

Jo, then weekend is over. Went and payed a donation to get Muxman premium.
So I started all over again, trying to insert the subs as they were. But this is great, learning 1 thing, reveals +3 things to be learned. Lots of stuff to be learned here, lots of thrilling experiences, to come, every time you try a new thing and succed.

Thanx manono for your patient help, and thorough answers, you've been greatly inspiring.

ClaudiuS

[manono]

But this is great, learning 1 thing, reveals +3 things to be learned.

That's for sure. Fascinating stuff, this, and with that attitude you'll be helping others in no time at all, and probably more coherently than I've helped you. Good luck, and come on back if you need more "help".

[ClaudiuS01]

One last time manono, just to have this thread come to a conclusive end:

My original problem, the subs out of sync: Could it be a problem that subrip have with these releases that have 2 cuts of the same movie? And if, is it known? Is there a cure?

Is there a special guide for backup of these releases? If not, it might be subject to a guide since these releases turn up from time to time.

ClaudiuS

[manono]

Hi-

I don't really know the answer to that question and don't have any DVDs on the hard drive with angles/ILVU, but since you got in-synch subs using SUP formats subs muxing using Muxman, and discovered one set of subs for the short version and another set for the long version of the movie, then I would say it's a DVDLab Pro problem. After all, when using SubRip, you could choose which set of subs to OCR, both the long and the short versions (assuming both versions were available for the Danish subs).

The only way to be sure SubRip wasn't at fault would be to play the OCR'd subs with the movie. Me, I'd blame DVDLab Pro messing up the timings. But like I said, I don't really know for sure.