Will a TBC fix this? (see pics)

[Theophilus]

I'm trying to capture a 21 year old vhs tape with my DAC-100. It is doing a remarkably good job, but the first 20 minutes or so of the tape is giving my vcr grief that I believe is due to tracking. When the video jumps, it drops frames. It also has tracking lines that come and go as shown in the pics below.

My vcr is a cheap 4-head GE brand. Will a better brand improve my problem or do I need a TBC (or a vcr with built in TBC)? I'm trying to find a better vcr for testing, but all of my friends also have cheap vcrs. I appreciate any suggestions you have to give.

[SLK001]

Yes, it will. About the only thing that will.

[davideck]

Your images indicate distortions in picture content as well as timing.
A TBC will attempt to eliminate the timing errors, but can do nothing about the loss of actual picture information.
Also, while the TBC will continue to provide valid video fields to your DAC-100 (and thus eliminate dropped frames), video jumping may still occur as the TBC resyncs its own input capture. I would hesitate to claim that the result would be better. It could be just as bad or even worse. The more important issue is to eliminate the tracking problems as much as possible. A TBC can't help with that. A good ol' VCR built around 1990 may be your best bet.

[Cornucopia]

I agree. TBC with Digital Noise Reduction, Industrial VCR with either Manual tracking adjustment (with meter) or dynamic tracking or both.

It may not be so much as tracking as from tearing on a creased tape or possibly tape shed. For this type of problem, as with the above, the mentioned tools are the preferred ones. You may also want to exercise the tape (FF, RW, FF, RW) to re-pack it smoothly. As a last resort, low-heat baking could help, but don't do this unless you really know what you're doing.

Good luck,
Scott

[Theophilus]

davideck,
So those ugly distortions in the pics are due to "picture content" rather than tracking (or are you referring to something more subtle)? A friend of mine has a Zenith that he bought about 9 years ago for $250. Maybe I'll ask him if I can test on it. Do you have any opinion on the Panasonic AG-19xx series SVHS editing vcrs (specifically AG-1960)? I've seen a lot of those for sale.

Cornucopia,
Are you referring to the tools mentioned by both SLK001 and davideck (TBC and old vcr)? They seem to be in disagreement. Should I try an old vcr with built in TBC like the Panasonic AG-1960?

Thanks for the input.

[davideck]

Cornucopia's observation about tape crease is an important one. Do these disturbances move from the top to the bottom of the picture as you play the tape? Can you hear an increase in scanner noise from your VCR whenever these noise bars appear? If so, these disturbances are probably due to tape crease and not to poor tracking. I don't know if any VCR can correct for tape crease, and I am not familiar with the baking technique mentioned. I have no experience with the Panasonic machines.

[SLK001]

A TBC is about the only thing that will clean up your video. What is happening, is that your DAC-100 is triggering on the horizontal sync pulse to begin it's encoding of that scan line. The horizontal sync pulse is a pulse that by spec, goes to the "whiter than white" region of the signal, or above any possible video signal. This is what the DAC-100 is looking for. Unfortunately, this pulse has some very high frequency components, and these high freq components are the first to go in an old tape. Your colors are "off" because the color is set by the color burst signal that is on the "back porch" of the horizontal sync pulse. When the DAC-100 doesn't find the sync pulse, there is no way that it can find the color burst signal, so everything starts to look like what you are seeing.

A TBC will strip out the old sync pulse and color burst, then will insert a sync pulse of the correct amplitude, then copy the color burst into the correct area.

My capture card did exactly what yours is doing. A TBC fixed my problems.

Get a VCR with a buiit in TBC.

[Theophilus]

The images displayed on the tv are the same as the images from the DAC-100. I don't believe the lines move up and down all that much (if at all), nor do I think I hear any extra activity inside the vcr when playing those spots. I did the ff->rw trick once, and it helped some. Maybe I'll try it again.

SLK001,
Thanks for the technical info. I'll definitely be looking for a better vcr.

[trhouse]

Is there an advantage to a VCR with TBC rather than a separate TBC?

[davideck]

Here is a good reference about built in vs. separate TBCs;

http://tangentsoft.net/video/tbc1000.html

Sounds like your problems are tracking related.
In that case, try any VCR you can. You might find one that plays OK.
I have many VCRs and they all perform differently.

[SLK001]

Is there an advantage to a VCR with TBC rather than a separate TBC?

If you are only going to do VCR tapes, I would say that the TBC in a player would be more closely tuned to their problems.

However, a stand-alone TBC gives you better control over its functions.

[trhouse]

Thank you both for the comments about internal and external TBC's. I agree about trying different VCR's. I have four, two Sony and two Sharp. One video has audio buzz on three players but on the fourth, it plays perfectly.

[lordsmurf]

An external TBC will not fix this. An external will minimize extraneous video errors caused by it, but the initial error you see will remain. An internal DNR-type TBC may minimize the annoyance. Unless it's compounded into the signal, certain stabilizers may be able to remove it to some degree, in conjunction with DNR-TBC and a machine with wide tracking abilities.

I've done tapes like this before, but they are real hit-n-miss. I'd have to see the video in my hands to determine it.

[SLK001]

Thank you both for the comments about internal and external TBC's. I agree about trying different VCR's. I have four, two Sony and two Sharp. One video has audio buzz on three players but on the fourth, it plays perfectly.

If it will play on that one player, then the problem is the horizontal sync thing I mentioned earlier (it's not that it isn't there, it's just doesn't have a high enough amplitude to trigger the horizontal sweep circuit on the other players or on the DAC-100). AGC in that one player may be boosting the signal to the proper levels. If this is the case, then an external TBC will fix this.

[davideck]

SLK001,
Take a look at the second image again.
The distorted lines are not only misalgned horizontally, but they are full of noise instead of picture content.
Even if the external TBC retimed these distorted lines perfectly, this region of the picture would still be noise.
The picture content needs to be recovered before an external TBC can help.
BTW, the sync region is blacker than black, not whiter than white.

[The village idiot]

My advice is to find a VCR that has a manual tracking adjustment, as others have said before me. Start there and see where it takes you. That doesn't look like a crease to me, or any kind of dropout. If you really want it transferred, but can't find a machine to do it, you might want to have that tape transferred for you.

[Theophilus]

Thanks for the comments. The distortion area in the pics I posted got distorted a little bit when I shrunk them to put on this forum (distorted distortion?). In other words, that area looks a little different than the original (oh, so little). The second one is most like the original.

[lordsmurf]

The buzz likely resides in high frequencies, and shutting off HiFi and swtiching to mono or other signals will likely remove the buzz. I do this frequently with my JVC 9800.

FOr such a tape, my 9800, my TBC, and using the proper combination of tracking/DNR/stabilizer/calibration/tracking/audio would probably result in a tape with no sound issues, stable picture, and minimizing of the noise you see on screen.

The reason it works in your SHARP is most likely because SHARP products are higher caliber than your Panasonic's or Sony's at the VHS and TV set level.

[Cornucopia]

I was referring to both observations.

Personally, I think you should get (hopefully, borrow or rent) an industrial SVHS machine, of the calibre of a Panasonic AG-DS5555 or better. This has fairly wide adjustable manual tracking (which I think you need), as well as DNR and TBC on board. (Actually, they might be add-on boards!?). You wouldn't want to buy one of these, though. They cost ~$2-4kUS, if memory serves.
For something like your problem, I think an on board TBC is better. It has access to the raw RF signal coming right off the tape and so has better control from the get go. This should work great for your material, unless it happened to be recorded in LP or EP/SLP, since this deck only plays SP tapes.

Scott

[lordsmurf]

JVC machines are about $400-600 and work just as well as the Panasonic.

[Theophilus]

Well, I finally got a JVC HR-S9600U vcr. I had a few minutes to play with it yesterday, and this is what I found. The picture quality is much, much better. The tracking problems, however, remain. The tbc/dnr seemed to have no effect at all on the video. Actually, it seemed to jump a little every now and then when turned on. I tried many combinations of video calibration, video stabilizer, picture control, tbc, etc. It seemed to work better with tbc off and video calibration and video stabilizer (which can not be used in conjunction with tbc) on.

I have a few questions, since it didn't come with a manual. What is the Digital R3 setting? What is the Review (with arrow underneath) function? How does the EDIT picture control differ from SHARP, SOFT, etc.? Anybody know where I can find a manual for it?

In summary, it tracks no better than my el cheapo vcr, but the video quality is much better. Overall, I'm a little disappointed.

[davideck]

Theophilus - Great follow up information! Did you buy that machine on EBay? You can download the manual at www.jvc.com (customer service / user manuals).

[Theophilus]

I did buy the vcr through ebay, and I found the manual here, which answered most of my questions above. Thanks.

[lordsmurf]

The "tracking problems" may be damaged tape then, and not a tracking problem.

The JVC machines have one of the largest track ranges of all VCRs, and can even track the horrid Magnavox- and Emerson-made tapes.

Have you physically looked at the tape... is it crunchy?

The only thing beyond this is a studio. Have you seen the movie "The Ring" where they take the video tape to the studio? That's what I mean. And even then, it may not work if it is damaged.

[Theophilus]

The problems seem to be tracking related, because the JVC flashes "VIDEO CALIBRATION" on the screen (when the superimpose function is on) when it gets to the bad parts of the film causing them to go away rather quickly (about as quickly as the autotracking on my other machine). I'll have to check to see if the tape is "crunchy."

[Mrsash]

MY 2 cents

I had a movie on tape which i could find a dvd for which was 20 years old and i had some tracking issues as well. My tv and vcr is in the other room. Obviously when i played it and saw some tracking distortions i thought dam and walked into my pc room to stop recording, but to my surprise what Vegas video 4 was showing as being recorded was with no distortions, anyway i wont say it is perfect all the time but that tape, it did a great job

[wonderuss]

One of my sony machines was playing tapes back like this, so when i popped it into my cheap £100 aiwa deck it was fine, then i just ran it through my old Panasonic WJAVE5 mixer (built in TBC) and it captures great with NO loss of frames at all.

[indolikaa]

I'd put my 2 cents on physical damage to the tape at the point in question...

[Theophilus]

more observations:
I checked the tape at the worst spot. No crunchiness detected. After doing a couple of hours worth of capturing experiments, I noticed that the JVC causes my DAC-100 to drop a lot more frames than it did with my el cheapo. For now, I've resorted to doing one cap with tbc off and one cap with tbc on while praying that it doesn't drop frames in the same spot both times so I can splice together the good parts in Ulead Video Studio.

[indolikaa]

I guess I'm 2 cents poorer. Somebody want to give me their PayPal address so I can reimburse accordingly?

Good luck Theophilus.