5c Protection with dvd recorders? HELP!!!!!

[mikej3131]

hello,

I was just wondering if anybody could clarify some thigns for me about dvd recorders. Ok i have the motorola dvr comcast dct6412 cable box and i have recorded a bunch of shows on NFL channel. Now this cable box has a firewire output and i got directions to capture this video from my box to my PC. it worked with the MTV shows i had but it did not work with the NFL channel shows i recorded(i could capture the show but the file did not play on my pc). Upon further investigation i read that it is because of 5c Protection.

Now does anybody know how do bypass this? and if not, can anybody tell me if this protection affects standalone dvd Players/Recorders(will i be able to record my nfl channel shows on a standalone dvd recorder if i buy one??)


Thanks

[FulciLives]

I think someone is trying to tell you to get another hobby other than the NFL.

[mikej3131]

haha well i like it to much so i gota find a way

[Frobozz]

DVD recorders don't use the Firewire connection with DVR's. They require an analog signal either from S-video, composite video or (on a very few recorders) 480i component video. It is likely that the 5c copy protection won't be present on the DVR's analog outputs. I haven't tried recording from the NFL channels but I also have not personally encountered a source that prevented me from recording something from cable or my Motorola 6412. This is also true with programs that can't be exported via Firewire to my computer because of the copy protection.

On the other hand, DVD recorders are designed to respect any copy protection that is present in the signal. If it is "copy never" then it can't be copied. If it is "copy once" it can be copied to a DVD recorder's hard drive or to a VR-mode DVD but not to a video-mode DVD.

Most of the 5c-protected channels do allow copy once. That's how D-VHS recorders can record the programs via Firewire.

Still, I have yet to encounter a copy-once program via an analog input. But I also don't have HBO or pay sports channels, so my experience is limited.

[mikej3131]

On the other hand, DVD recorders are designed to respect any copy protection that is present in the signal. If it is "copy never" then it can't be copied. If it is "copy once" it can be copied to a DVD recorder's hard drive or to a VR-mode DVD but not to a video-mode DVD.

If it is copy once and i copy it to the dvd's hard drive, can i copy it to a dvd also and then copy it to my computer with the dvd?

or to a VR-mode DVD but not to a video-mode DVD.

whats vr-mode and video mode and what did you mean by this. sorry im not very familar at all with dvd recorders. Can you explain alil more?


I heard toshiba dvd recorders are picky when it comes to copy protection on cable boxes(even when you use svideo or composite). Do you know of any dvd recorders that wil for sure let me copy everything i want?


And what is the best connections for best quality with a dvd recorder :
1. svideo
2. component
3. composite
and if its component, that mean i can record hi def right?

[edDV]

I heard toshiba dvd recorders are picky when it comes to copy protection on cable boxes(even when you use svideo or composite). Do you know of any dvd recorders that wil for sure let me copy everything i want?

In your dreams.

And what is the best connections for best quality with a dvd recorder :
1. svideo
2. component
3. composite
and if its component, that mean i can record hi def right?

Best - component (any DVD recorders do that?). HD never.
This is a DVD recorder not a HD DVD recorder.
Next best - S-Video
Next - Composite

[leebo]

Now does anybody know how do bypass this? and if not, can anybody tell me if this protection affects standalone dvd Players/Recorders(will i be able to record my nfl channel shows on a standalone dvd recorder if i buy one??)


Thanks

Can't do it from the 6412 to the PC.

You might be able to do it from the 6412 to a DVD set top recorder, depending on your equipment.

I've had good luck with Liteon (inc. ILO) recorders. Many of their models seem to ignore the 5c copy protection.

Also, Sima makes a device the connects between the source and recorder (analogue) that supposedly removes the 5c signal. I don't know the model but you can do a search at AVS.forum.com.

[redwudz]

I found this with a Google search, but don't know if it applies: http://www.digg.com/technology/Record_HiDef_content_from_Comcast_Receiver_to_WinXP

[Frobozz]

If it is copy once and i copy it to the dvd's hard drive, can i copy it to a dvd also and then copy it to my computer with the dvd?

If your DVD recorder has a hard drive you should be able to copy a copy-once program from the hard drive to a VR-mode disc. I've never had a copy-once disc so I don't know what would happen if I tried to copy it to my computer. My sense is that it would not work to do that.

whats vr-mode and video mode and what did you mean by this. sorry im not very familar at all with dvd recorders. Can you explain alil more?

It's a format that allows editing on the disc. It also can only be played back on the recorder (or sometimes on a different recorder that also has VR-mode capability).

I heard toshiba dvd recorders are picky when it comes to copy protection on cable boxes(even when you use svideo or composite). Do you know of any dvd recorders that wil for sure let me copy everything i want?

No. Copy protection is strictly adhered to by DVD recorders.

And what is the best connections for best quality with a dvd recorder :
1. svideo
2. component
3. composite
and if its component, that mean i can record hi def right?

The problem with the few recorders that accept comonent input is that you have to set the component output of your DVR to 480i. So you aren't getting Hi-Def and your DVR's settings are now wrong for HD output. The marginal difference between S-video and 480i component does not make that feature worth much in my opinion. There is an exception, however. If you have a DVR (not a Motorola) that will output 16:9 video via 480i component output then you'll be able to record anamorphic widescreen video with your DVD recorder. However, the Motorola DVR's output letterboxed video at 480i via component or any other output, so the S-video connection does the job just as well.

[mikej3131]

If you have a DVR (not a Motorola) that will output 16:9 video via 480i component output then you'll be able to record anamorphic widescreen video with your DVD recorder. However, the Motorola DVR's output letterboxed video at 480i via component or any other output, so the S-video connection does the job just as well.

So your saying with the motorola, i wll be able to record anamorphic widescreen video to my dvd with component and s-video(in other words if i record an HD show with svideo from my motorola to my dvd recorder then i play it back on a 16:9 widescreen tv, will it be full screen??
anamorphic widescreen and letterboxed are the same thing right?

No. Copy protection is strictly adhered to by DVD recorders.

ok here is my situation. all my shows i wanna record have 5c - copy once protection on them. But 5c is only for firewire right? i can record these shows through svideo as many times as i want right?

It's a format that allows editing on the disc. It also can only be played back on the recorder (or sometimes on a different recorder that also has VR-mode capability).

I heard once i edit that disc and then finalize it, i can watch it on any dvd player as long as i finalized it.


[quote]I've had good luck with Liteon (inc. ILO) recorders. Many of their models seem to ignore the 5c copy protection. [quote]
Does sony make liteon dvd recorders or is liteon its own brand????

Also, Sima makes a device the connects between the source and recorder (analogue) that supposedly removes the 5c signal. I don't know the model but you can do a search at AVS.forum.com.

What is sima and are you talking about between the source and the "dvd recorder?" or can sima do this with a computer also?

[leebo]

What is sima and are you talking about between the source and the "dvd recorder?" or can sima do this with a computer also?

Sima is a company that makes video related devices. I believe it's analogue only. Do a search in these forums.

Also, I've heard LITEON makes recorders for Sony, not the other way around.

[Frobozz]

So your saying with the motorola, i wll be able to record anamorphic widescreen video to my dvd with component and s-video(in other words if i record an HD show with svideo from my motorola to my dvd recorder then i play it back on a 16:9 widescreen tv, will it be full screen??
anamorphic widescreen and letterboxed are the same thing right?

Anamorphic and letterbox are not the same. The Glossary linked at the top left of the Videohelp page probably explains this. What you'll get from the Motorola box is letterboxed 4:3 video from the HD channels. You will need to use the zoom feature on your 16:9 TV for this to fill the width of the screen.

ok here is my situation. all my shows i wanna record have 5c - copy once protection on them. But 5c is only for firewire right? i can record these shows through svideo as many times as i want right?

My only encounters with 5c copy protection has been with the Firewire link. But it can also apply to the analog outputs. I can only copy to my computer via Firewire the network HD channels from my Comcast/Motorola 6412 because of the 5c flag. However, none of the channels I record have any copy protection on the analog outputs. But I don't have HBO, Showtime or the subscription sports channels so I don't know if they have any copy protection for analog copies. It is possible.

I heard once i edit that disc and then finalize it, i can watch it on any dvd player as long as i finalized it.

You can finalize a video-mode disc for playback on other machines. However, VR-mode discs cannot be finalized for universal playback. VR-mode also requires rewritable media such as DVD-RW. If you download a Pioneer DVD recorder manual you can read about VR mode and the copy protection features with their recorders. I presume that information is in other brand's manuals as well. With a VR-mode disc you can have a DVD to keep of a copy-once program. You just can't make more copies and share it with friends. That's the point of copy protection.

[mikej3131]

You can finalize a video-mode disc for playback on other machines. However, VR-mode discs cannot be finalized for universal playback. VR-mode also requires rewritable media such as DVD-RW. If you download a Pioneer DVD recorder manual you can read about VR mode and the copy protection features with their recorders. I presume that information is in other brand's manuals as well. With a VR-mode disc you can have a DVD to keep of a copy-once program. You just can't make more copies and share it with friends. That's the point of copy protection.

What type of editing are you talking about?
ok so copy once programs wont allow me to copy to video mode, and video mode is the mode that will let me make more copis of that disc? right?
does vr-mode work with dvd-r media, or only rw media?
are you sure abou these copy once programs and not being allowed to copy to a video mode(because you said in a post earlier that you havent ran into a source that didnt let you copy)

Anamorphic and letterbox are not the same. The Glossary linked at the top left of the Videohelp page probably explains this. What you'll get from the Motorola box is letterboxed 4:3 video from the HD channels. You will need to use the zoom feature on your 16:9 TV for this to fill the width of the screen.

Do you think it will be better quality if i record a HD show to the dvd recorder or that same show but the SD version?


What about

[edDV]

Anamorphic and letterbox are not the same. The Glossary linked at the top left of the Videohelp page probably explains this. What you'll get from the Motorola box is letterboxed 4:3 video from the HD channels. You will need to use the zoom feature on your 16:9 TV for this to fill the width of the screen.

Do you think it will be better quality if i record a HD show to the dvd recorder or that same show but the SD version?

What about

I'm confused here. You started out talking about the NFL channel. The Comcast NFL channel is a normal 480i cable channel just like standard HBO. Same is true for all extra sports channels on Comcast. They are all 480i cable MPeg2. Here they are all 524x480.

ESPN-HD is a true 1280x720p high definition channel. Here it is 5c blocked.

ABC-CBS-FOX-NBC-PBS-UPN-WB have both analog cable and high def versions on the cable. The FCC requires the digital (SD-HD) channels be passed through to the IEEE-1394 port without any copy protection added by the cable company. The broadcaster is free to add copy protection at the source if they choose.

The HD channel will always give a better quality over the (downscaled - letterboxed 480i) S-Video output than will be the case from the analog or cable MPeg2 channels. Those who want "full screen" will have to accept lower quality on the analog channel. Some Comcast systems are offering locals in analog, cable 524x480 MPeg2 and HD versions.

[mikej3131]

I'm confused here. You started out talking about the NFL channel. The Comcast NFL channel is a normal 480i cable channel just like standard HBO. Same is true for all extra sports channels on Comcast. They are all 480i cable MPeg2. Here they are all 524x480.

They have nfl channel in hi def.

ESPN-HD is a true 1280x720p high definition channel. Here it is 5c blocked.

When i went into the comcast menu page (first hit the cable button, then hit the power button , then hit the select button). it said that even the regular SD nfl channel was 5c copy protected. is this suposed to be pcopy protedcted?

ABC-CBS-FOX-NBC-PBS-UPN-WB have both analog cable and high def versions on the cable. The FCC requires the digital (SD-HD) channels be passed through to the IEEE-1394 port without any copy protection added by the cable company. The broadcaster is free to add copy protection at the source if they choose.

if the fcc requires all digital SD HD be passed through firewire without copy protection, then how can these channels have copy protection if it is required not to have it??? and how is the braodcaster free to add copy protection at the source if the fcc requires them not to

The HD channel will always give a better quality S-Video (downscaled - letterboxed 480i) output. Those who want "full screen" will have to accept lower quality on the analog channel. Some Comcast systems are offering locals in analog, cable 524x480 MPeg2 and HD versions of the locals.

so you mean if i record HD through svideo then the resulting dvd with alwaysbe letterboxed even when playing it on a widescreen display?

[edDV]

I'm confused here. You started out talking about the NFL channel. The Comcast NFL channel is a normal 480i cable channel just like standard HBO. Same is true for all extra sports channels on Comcast. They are all 480i cable MPeg2. Here they are all 524x480.

They have nfl channel in hi def.

Only the 524x480i version is available here and only in extra packages.
- Digital Sports Tier
- Digital Premier Tier

Their site shows that they have a SD and HD feed on sat but DirecTV and Dish are SD. Cable companies are Comcast, Cox and Adelphia.
http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/fastfacts

ESPN-HD is a true 1280x720p high definition channel. Here it is 5c blocked.

When i went into the comcast menu page (first hit the cable button, then hit the power button , then hit the select button). it said that even the regular SD nfl channel was 5c copy protected. is this suposed to be pcopy protedcted?

Here all MPeg2 (SD and HD) other than locals has 5c

ABC-CBS-FOX-NBC-PBS-UPN-WB have both analog cable and high def versions on the cable. The FCC requires the digital (SD-HD) channels be passed through to the IEEE-1394 port without any copy protection added by the cable company. The broadcaster is free to add copy protection at the source if they choose.

if the fcc requires all digital SD HD be passed through firewire without copy protection, then how can these channels have copy protection if it is required not to have it??? and how is the braodcaster free to add copy protection at the source if the fcc requires them not to

FCC ruled cable/sat cannot add their own protection to the digital locals.

The local broadcasters can do as they please but currently this is only done for broadcast subscription services (e.g. USDigital http://www.usdigitalhdtv.com/checkout.php ) . If the Broadcast Flag passes in congerss, then individual programs could be flagged and HDTV limited to HDCP connections.

The HD channel will always give a better quality S-Video (downscaled - letterboxed 480i) output. Those who want "full screen" will have to accept lower quality on the analog channel. Some Comcast systems are offering locals in analog, cable 524x480 MPeg2 and HD versions of the locals.

so you mean if i record HD through svideo then the resulting dvd with alwaysbe letterboxed even when playing it on a widescreen display?

Yes, unless you zoom it in the TV or DVD player.

S-Video is a downscaled SD letterbox representation of the HD channel but still looks good. It is much higher quality than the analog or 524x480 SD versions.

[mikej3131]

i have comcast with the nfl package. there are two channels that run simultaneoulsy. channel 180 and channel 275. i think 275 is HD.

[edDV]

i have comcast with the nfl package. there are two channels that run simultaneoulsy. channel 180 and channel 275. i think 275 is HD.

I doubt it. HD is usually on the 7xx or 9xx channels. Your TV should be identifying it as 1080i if it is HD and it would be 16:9.

[mikej3131]

so does anybody know of any JVC or PIONEER recorders that can be hacked to ignore copy protection or do any of these recorders just ignore it right off the back

[FulciLives]

so does anybody know of any JVC or PIONEER recorders that can be hacked to ignore copy protection or do any of these recorders just ignore it right off the back

Get a Full Frame TBC such as the AVT-8710 or the DataVideo TBC-1000

Do a google on them or look them up on pricegrabber.com

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Frobozz]

What type of editing are you talking about?
ok so copy once programs wont allow me to copy to video mode, and video mode is the mode that will let me make more copis of that disc? right?
does vr-mode work with dvd-r media, or only rw media?
are you sure abou these copy once programs and not being allowed to copy to a video mode(because you said in a post earlier that you havent ran into a source that didnt let you copy)

This is best explained by reading through a DVD recorder manual. There's a link at the top of this forum to the pages where manuals can be downloaded.

By the way on my Comcast system (Oregon) all the digital channels are blocked from copying via Firewire except for the network HD channels. The analog channels are also copy free.

[mikej3131]

so what does tbc stand for and is it just like a firmware add-on?

5c protection only applies to firewire connections right? if i use analog on the dvd recorder then 5c wont affect it right?


I think im just gonna buy the latest JVC recorder and try to copy my shows on NFL channel.
whast the latest best JVC recorder?

[edDV]

I have no problems here using the analog standard def S-Video port for my computer based PVR, but then I'm not using a DVD recorder.