Which recording method would you choose...

[tangerine]

...for a 180 min movie?
It is an old VHS tape (wedding movie) to be transferred to DVD(s)

My options are:

1. Two 90 min long records in FR90 mode, then simply high-speed dub them to 2 DVDs without recompressing.
2. A 180 min long record in XP mode, then cut it to halves, then recompress them to 2 DVDs in FR90 mode.
3. A 180 min long record in XP mode, then recompress it to 1 DVD in FR180 mode.
4. A 180 min long record in FR180 mode, then simply high-speed dub it to 1 DVD without recompressing.

I know that #1 and #2 are better than #3 and #4, but I cannot decide between #1 and #2, and between #3 and #4?

My recorder is a JVC DR-MH20 (80 GB HDD).

[trhouse]

Generally speaking, with hard drive recorders, re-encoding degrades the quality more than capturing straight to the desired mode and high speed dubbing. On this thread

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279460

it was tested on a Pioneer. The XP+ to SP re-encode causes a degradation in resolution. Some sincerely argue that the macroblocks are improved but in these tests there was not much difference but for the softening. If it is of great concern, you can do these tests yourself. All the software is freeware available in the tools section of this forum.

[lordsmurf]

FR180 is a good spec for video. 352x480 with a 3.5Mb/s avg VBR, and a max that spikes well into the 4.0-4.9 range. Use that.

[dphirschler]

I choose option 3, but 4 may be fine.


Darryl

[tangerine]

Thanks everyone for answering.
I have one more question. The length of the video is actually only 170 min (I said 180 for simplifiing the counting)
Does it make any difference in using the method #4? I.e. will the resolution be changed using FR170?
How can one tell that which resolution I get in which mode?

[tangerine]

I tried FR180, but the quality was horrible.
Now I am choosing the #1. Two discs at FR90.

[lordsmurf]

The quality at FR180 can't be "horrible".
Technically, it's pretty much impossible unless it was given bad source.

FR180 is a medium resolution with more than enough bitrate. In fact, it has pretty much the same bit allocation as FR90 does.

[DVWannaB]

...for a 180 min movie?
It is an old VHS tape (wedding movie) to be transferred to DVD(s)

My options are:

1. Two 90 min long records in FR90 mode, then simply high-speed dub them to 2 DVDs without recompressing.
2. A 180 min long record in XP mode, then cut it to halves, then recompress them to 2 DVDs in FR90 mode.
3. A 180 min long record in XP mode, then recompress it to 1 DVD in FR180 mode.
4. A 180 min long record in FR180 mode, then simply high-speed dub it to 1 DVD without recompressing.

I know that #1 and #2 are better than #3 and #4, but I cannot decide between #1 and #2, and between #3 and #4?

My recorder is a JVC DR-MH20 (80 GB HDD).

None of the above. Why skimp? Do an XP record OR FR60 (better) and split into 3 equal parts and burn onto 3 dics. One hour on each disk. This is a wedding, which is a huge event. Dont skimp on one disc difference. You wont regret it.

[FulciLives]

The quality at FR180 can't be "horrible".
Technically, it's pretty much impossible unless it was given bad source.

FR180 is a medium resolution with more than enough bitrate. In fact, it has pretty much the same bit allocation as FR90 does.

I would agree that the bitrate needed for 180 minutes (approximately 3000kbps video) would be fine ... not optimal ... but fine IF Half D1 was being used.

I cannot comment on the JVC stand alone DVD recorders but my Pioneer stand alone DVD recorder (the DVR-531H-s model) does FullD1 up to 210 minutes.

See the chart below:



Does that chart strike anyone else as STUPID !!!

I would have liked to have seen the shift from FullD1 to HalfD1 happen anywhere in the range from 140 - 160 minutes rather than stay FullD1 until 220 minutes.

In fact it would be nice to be able to overide the resolution so you can pick any resolution at any bitrate. I have some VHS tapes I did back in the day where I used HalfD1 but with a CBR of 5000kbps just so I could get it done fast and avoid a multi-pass VBR. Can do that on the computer but not with a stand alone DVD recorder. Sigh.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
If the JVC is like the Pioneer and uses Full D1 at the 180 minute mode then clearly I can understand how that would look like shit.

[DVWannaB]

I have both the Pioneer 520 and JVC MH30. If I remember correctly, the JVC goes with full res up to I believe 140 or 150 minutes.

Yes that chart is half retarded. Possibly done to confuse on the one hand and to prevent how much damage an inexperienced user can do on the other

[trhouse]

Having the chart is better than nothing. I have looked through several JVC manuals and there is no reference to when resolution changes take place.

It does seem odd that FR180 should look bad since VHS resolution is typically only about 240 lines.

[edit] Unless this is really a S-VHS tape which has 400 lines, then 352 x 480 would be a degradation.

[DVWannaB]

Having the chart is better than nothing. I have looked through several JVC manuals and there is no reference to when resolution changes take place.

tr, dont remember where I saw read or found it. Might be on-line support on the JVC site or some such place. Definitely not in the manual,..............actually there inst much to that manual. What a train-wreck that thing is (the manual)

[trhouse]

Please post if you remember where you saw this information. I know I would apprecicate it.

[LCSHG]

[ tangerine ]

What is the video quality of your old VHS tape?
At what point in transfer of VHS to DVD does the video qualty become moot.
Sure you should protect your valuable recordings, you are doing that; The number of Disks used ,Bit rate, should by governed by the quality obtained. If the quality on one Disk is as good as two or three, I should think you would put it on one.

If the resolution isn't there is isn't there. The table given by [FulciLives] is a guide and a good one.

Example, A friend gave me a VHS tape to transter to DVD. It was on two tapes, a 5 hr long program. The video quality was not jhat good. He wanted it on one disk but not at the expence of video quality.
I taped this at a recording mode that would require two disks. I than recorded it on one one disk using a 5 hr mode. He or others could not see any difference. He was happy to have it on one disk. In my experence DVD is usually better, even at longer record times, than VHS

[lordsmurf]

In my experence DVD is usually better, even at longer record times, than VHS

That's also pretty much impossible. Anything more than 4 hours requires a bitrate less than 2000k, and that almost always drops resolution into 352x240, which is deinterlaced. Artifacts would be all over the place.

The only way to avoid that would be to force an IVTC, but even then it's soft focus as compared to the VHS tape, because VHS has an active resolution equivalent to about 250-300x480. An IVTC is not done actively on a DVD recorder, you have to do it in software after a high-res capture.

If the JVC is like the Pioneer and uses Full D1 at the 180 minute mode then clearly I can understand how that would look like shit.

FR180 on the JVC units is 352x480. The res drops to 352x480, a medium resolution that is equal to or above most sources anyway, at about FR160 or so. JVC has a chart on one of their sites, not sure which country.

[LCSHG]

[lordsmurf]

Looking back I may need to clarify a statment.

I understand the lesser bitrate at a 5hr mode than a 3 or 4 hr mode. The issue was that the resolution might not be there to start with, even at the higher bitrate of a 3 hr mode There were no Artifatc proplems at this lower bitrate. Yes the video was soft but so was the tape. I'm sure a test would have shown a lower bitrate in this 5 hr mode but I and others could not see a difference [In the Real World]

Using a stand alone recorder, I recently dubed a very good VHS tape, two tapes recorded in SP, to DVD in SP 2hr, in LP 3 hr and than in EP 4 hr,. I could not see any real difference in any, I fact one person said that one recording, it was the EP, looked somewhat better than another that was the LP. No one said that the SP recording was better than the LP or EP.

I recorded it in EP. If I had a 60" or larger TV and sitting about 6 ft away, I might think about the LP mode but I doubt it. I'd either move back or have asmaller TV.

My meaning was that if I record a program to VHS tape, analog, at say SP or LP. Than record the same program to DVD, digital, at LP or EP I can see no visual difference even though the bitrate is lower, even some recordings will look OK at SLP. Can I attribute this, that anolog can be somewhat off in its recordoing spectrum and therefore quality, while digital is either on or off. in recording quality

I think many spend a lot of time and money trying to achive a resolution we can't see or wasn't there to begin with

[tangerine]

The quality at FR180 can't be "horrible".
Technically, it's pretty much impossible unless it was given bad source.

Yes, the source is quite bad quality. It is a 15-year old movie on VHS tape.
Grainy, noisy, jumpy, etc.

[tangerine]

None of the above. Why skimp? Do an XP record OR FR60 (better) and split into 3 equal parts and burn onto 3 dics. One hour on each disk. This is a wedding, which is a huge event. Dont skimp on one disc difference. You wont regret it.

You mean FR60 is better than XP?

Is that true that if I choose FRxx then the resolution is always 352x576 (mine is a PAL recorder) even in FR60?

I found this chart on a German page. This is for DR-MH30 but I am sure that the same is for DR-MH20.
According to this chart FR mode always results 352x576.

[DVWannaB]

You mean FR60 is better than XP?

Is that true that if I choose FRxx then the resolution is always 352x576 (mine is a PAL recorder) even in FR60?

I found this chart on a German page. This is for DR-MH30 but I am sure that the same is for DR-MH20. According to this chart FR mode always results 352x576.

No, if you use FR60 it will be 720x576. 352x576 resolution only comes into play when you bump up to FR150 or FR160 mode. I prefer FR60 to XP, because the bits are better allocated using variable bitrate (VBR). I found the XP mode to look very much like constant bitrate (CBR). Cant go wrong with either. Also, using FR60 or XP best reproduces your original VHS better than any other setting.

[LCSHG]

[ tangerine ]

[quote]
Yes, the source is quite bad quality. It is a 15-year old movie on VHS tape.
Grainy, noisy, jumpy, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ lordsmurf wrote: ] [Quote]
The quality at FR180 can't be "horrible".
Technically, it's pretty much impossible unless it was given bad source.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What He says is the BOTTOM LINE

If the above source is what you say it is. Why are you concerned with a high bit rate if, obviously, the quality is very poor and the resolution is not there.

You will not increase the quality of this tape that is this bad by going to a higher bit rate.You cannot restore this VHS tape going that route.

Are you trying to dub A VHS to DVD or are you trying to Restore the VHS recording prior to Dubbing. Restoring the tape prsents a much different set of issues. You need to speek with someone like Ted Turner If you want to restore an old film.

[tangerine]

[quote="LCSHG"][ tangerine ]

[quote]
Yes, the source is quite bad quality. It is a 15-year old movie on VHS tape.
Grainy, noisy, jumpy, etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ lordsmurf wrote: ]

The quality at FR180 can't be "horrible".
Technically, it's pretty much impossible unless it was given bad source.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What He says is the BOTTOM LINE

If the above source is what you say it is. Why are you concerned with a high bit rate if, obviously, the quality is very poor and the resolution is not there.

You will not increase the quality of this tape that is this bad by going to a higher bit rate.You cannot restore this VHS tape going that route.

Are you trying to dub A VHS to DVD or are you trying to Restore the VHS recording prior to Dubbing. Restoring the tape prsents a much different set of issues. You need to speek with someone like Ted Turner If you want to restore an old film.

I do know that I will not be able to increase the quality. What I want to get is the (nearly) same quality as the source. My problem is that what I get is even worse than the bad source.

[lordsmurf]

Noise is what trips up an MPEG compression algorithm. You'll likely need a lot of pre-processing of the signal, maybe even a raw AVI capture encoded in software. You may have to pay somebody if you can't do it on your own. Fixing video takes a lot of costly hardware/software and experience. If you have the budget and are willing to learn, then you can do it too.

VHS is basically 250-300x480 source resolution. You have to capture above that. On a DVD recorder, that means at least 4-hour mode or higher (XP 1-hour, SP 2-hour, etc). More bitrate is also helpful, something like FR90 or FR180.

FR60 is XP 1-hour
FR120 is SP 2-hour
FR240 is LP 4-hour

Hope this clears up some ambiguous comments I saw above.

[FulciLives]

Like LordSmurf indicated a video source with a lot of video noise will need a lot of bitrate to look good.

You have the option of trying to clean it up before encoding it to MPEG ... either with external hardware or capture in a lightly compressed or no compressed format then use software. The first method is good for a stand alone DVD recorder but the second method really requires a computer with a capture card that can do AVI capture. First option can be expensive. The second option is much cheaper.

However there is yet another option that exists.

Just record at the XP mode (highest bitrate a DVD can use) without any expensive hardware for "video cleaning" and be happy with that quality (which should be good) and split it up over 3 DVD discs.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[LCSHG]

What lordsmurf is saying is right on.
You will need to reprocess the VHS signal first
That is expencive and time consuming

IN your last post you indicated that you are getting a worse DVD recording than what is on the tape. I should think that this goes right along with what lordsmurf is saying and along with that your recorder may be reacting badly to a poor tape. Some with a Pioneer report that while the machine is very good it has problems with such a siginal source. Again I think lordsmurf post is right on

I'M sorry If I seemed Harsh. I felt that you were trying to get something that was not there. I think that most all of us have been there

[tangerine]

Noise is what trips up an MPEG compression algorithm. You'll likely need a lot of pre-processing of the signal, maybe even a raw AVI capture encoded in software. You may have to pay somebody if you can't do it on your own. Fixing video takes a lot of costly hardware/software and experience. If you have the budget and are willing to learn, then you can do it too.

Unfortunately I have nobody to make the preprocessing.

FR60 is XP 1-hour
FR120 is SP 2-hour
FR240 is LP 4-hour

Hope this clears up some ambiguous comments I saw above.

You mean that there is no difference between i.e FR60 and XP? They are exactly the same as (I thought for the first time)?
No VBR vs. CBR thing as DVWannaB said?

[tangerine]

Like LordSmurf indicated a video source with a lot of video noise will need a lot of bitrate to look good.
You have the option of trying to clean it up before encoding it to MPEG ... either with external hardware or capture in a lightly compressed or no compressed format then use software. The first method is good for a stand alone DVD recorder but the second method really requires a computer with a capture card that can do AVI capture. First option can be expensive. The second option is much cheaper.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I have only a TV-tuner card (miro PCTV pro) as a capture card. It quality quite crappy, no TBC, the sound is always lagging from the picture especially at higher bitrate and with bad quality VHS source. This is one of the reasons why I bought a DVD recorder. Avoid using my computer for making captures.

Like LordSmurf indicated a video source with a lot of video noise will need a lot of bitrate to look good.
However there is yet another option that exists.
Just record at the XP mode (highest bitrate a DVD can use) without any expensive hardware for "video cleaning" and be happy with that quality (which should be good) and split it up over 3 DVD discs.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I think this is the best (and most) thing I can do without much effort. Without competence I have no patience and time for experimenting for weeks. So I'll choose the 3 discs at XP quality.

But this raises another question. It is known that JVC is not able to high-speed dub anything that is cutted, and will take 3 times 1 hour to dub to 3 discs if cutted. This is the smallest problem. But as far as I know cutting the capture file on the recorder will cause the recorder to recompress the movie during dubbing (this is why dubbing lasts that long) So the quality reduces again by recompressing, does it?
Or should I make that I record one hour then stopo the recorder, then record the second hour, stop again, then record to the end?

How the hell one can make an XP record longer than an hour and dub it to discs without recompressing(quality loss)?

[tangerine]

I'M sorry If I seemed Harsh. I felt that you were trying to get something that was not there. I think that most all of us have been there

No problemo.

[trhouse]

How the hell one can make an XP record longer than an hour and dub it to discs without recompressing(quality loss)?

Take the title captured in XP mode over three hours then use the divide function to divide it into three new titles and high speed dub each title to a dvd.

Here is how divide works from the manual.

[lordsmurf]

You mean that there is no difference between i.e FR60 and XP? They are exactly the same as (I thought for the first time)?
No VBR vs. CBR thing as DVWannaB said?

None. The machine does VBR, period. It's not CBR, never.
FR60 is the same as XP, etc

[tangerine]

How the hell one can make an XP record longer than an hour and dub it to discs without recompressing(quality loss)?

Take the title captured in XP mode over three hours then use the divide function to divide it into three new titles and high speed dub each title to a dvd.

Here is how divide works from the manual.

I see. I know how to divide, but AFAIR it is impossible to "high speed" dub after touching the recorded movie. After that it can only be dubbed at normal speed and recompressing is being made. But I'll try.