Strange Beta Xfer Anomaly w/ Pioneer 520

[Seeker47]

The only videotape --> DVD transfers I've done so far are Beta cassettes, which outnumber the VHS tapes I'm sure I want to transfer. (Will get to those later.) The results I've been getting -- using the Pioneer 520, over a composite video cable (the Beta deck does not have S-Video connections), look pretty good to me. I'd even say better than I expected. Whatever quality the particular source tape has, the PQ on the DVD looks about the same, or so close that I have no complaint.

But there is one mysterious issue I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on. (No pun intended.) Playing these DVDs back on the 520 that burned them: no problem. Playing them back on an older Lite-On 2001 player: works fine too. But when I play any of them back on my main player -- a Malata N900 -- I'm seeing a strange anomaly. The video jumps or jerks forward, anywhere from a few "frames" to a few seconds. I think it is more like a small, sudden speed change then there actually being anything missing. It is random and unpredictable, but throughout the DVD. It left me wondering if anything could be wrong with these xfers . . . before I make too many more of them.

(I've also played them back on a computer, but that doesn't offer a very smooth playback anyway, and so may not be very useful to judge.)

Here are the relevant details:

The Malata has been a real workhorse. It plays commercial DVDs -- domestic and foreign -- without noticeable issues, unless the DVD happened to be damaged or defective (very rare). It also plays off-cable recordings made by the 520, whether burned straight to DVD or copied from the HDD, with no sign of this problem. Nor does there seem to be any problem of this kind with DVDs made on the Pioneer 108 in my computer, no matter what programs were used in making them.

I'm using only major name brand media (a variety of TDK, Maxell, Verbatim, etc.), all made in Taiwan, mostly 4X or 8X, occasionally 16X. There may be slight variations in the extent of the playback anomaly among different brands of the media used, but I'm not sure about this. The 520's default speed is set to MN-32, though this probably applies to the HDD only, which isn't involved in this procedure. (Or is it ?) The burner in the 520 is supposed to be an 8X.

Is there some important setting on the 520 that I'm overlooking, for xfer purposes ? Or is this more likely just some problem the Malata has with Xfer burns from the 520, or with xfer burns on some media ?

In another thread, Lordsmurf mentioned:

"Then be sure to get a good TBC for any tape work."

Does this apply to Beta as well ? I'm not seeing any frame sync or rolling problem at all.

[davideck]

The benefits of using a TBC hold true for Beta as well as any other analog tape format.
An interesting experiment to test your setup would be to capture from the Beta VCR tuner. This will test the signal path from VCR to DVD Recorder with a stable signal. If the tuner capture doesn't stutter but the tape capture does, then that suggests that a TBC will be of benefit.

[trhouse]

Most of the time, issues like this can be traced to media. Here are are two test frames from a DVDInfoPro speed test of genuine Taiyo Yuden media (TYG01) and a fake TYG02 disk. Notice the anomolies in the speed of the fake. Many players can handle the anomolies but not all. Typically, a player will appear to stall or flutter momentarily at these glitches.

The genuine TY.


The fake.


DVDInfoPro is freeware.

[Seeker47]

The benefits of using a TBC hold true for Beta as well as any other analog tape format.
An interesting experiment to test your setup would be to capture from the Beta VCR tuner. This will test the signal path from VCR to DVD Recorder with a stable signal. If the tuner capture doesn't stutter but the tape capture does, then that suggests that a TBC will be of benefit.

O.K., I have now run your test. I did a half-hour capture direct from the Beta VCR tuner. I will disregard commercials, which could have sudden speed changes and other editing tricks, in favor of live interview segments, where you only have to worry about the change between multiple video cameras. The same problem is present. It could be a bit less often, and a bit less severe, but it is defintely there. Now what ?

[davideck]

I don't know. It sure sounds like media, except for your claim that off-cable recordings are fine.
Perhaps your 520 is having difficulty with its external source.
Maybe there is some compatibility issue with the Beta VCR as a source.
I would try a different stable source. A VHS VCR tuner?
Do you have an S-Video source? Maybe that would make a difference...

[Seeker47]

Most of the time, issues like this can be traced to media. Here are are two test frames from a DVDInfoPro speed test of genuine Taiyo Yuden media (TYG01) and a fake TYG02 disk. Notice the anomolies in the speed of the fake. Many players can handle the anomolies but not all. Typically, a player will appear to stall or flutter momentarily at these glitches.

Some questions suggested by your reply:

1) I take it this is a strong endorsement for DVDInfoPro, as a diagnostic tool ? My copy had expired, and when I went to install the current version, it failed, telling me I need to purchase a license. (Which I may well do, but both of these were the Advert supported edition, which are supposedly freeware. I had uninstalled the prior version first.) So, in the meantime, I've installed the basic DVDInfo.

2) If it is a player by player issue, it may or may not be worth going the TBC route, if that ends up being just to accomodate the Malata.

3) Is most of the TYGO2 fake ? Following a mention in another thread, I just picked up a couple spindles of Fuji -R 8X, which were still on sale at Staples. You have to be careful, because many of their packages say "Made in Taiwan", while relatively few of them say "Made in Japan." I bought the latter, and both DVDInfo and another program say this media is TYG02. If true, this would be only the second TY I've found on chain store shelves. (The other was Plextor 8X +R, which reports out to be Yuden000T02.). Once I record a couple of them, I will compare the test results with those obtained from some other name brand media I've been using.

[trhouse]

It was not intended to be an endorsement for DVDInfoPro. I try to suggest commonly available freeware to allow the most users to do a good test for the least cost. DVDInfoPro does expire but you can uninstall and download the newest version again for free.

I am not sure how widely faked TY media is but in this instance, it was sold under the GQ label with the "borrowed" TY media code. All the genuine TY media I have used is from Japan. I have never run across TY made in Taiwan. The other very good media is Verbatim made by MCC ( Mitsubishi Chemical Corp. ).

I have been doing a big family dvd project, so compatibility is a significant issue. So far, I have had no problems with either TY or Verbatim (MCC). TY makes their own disks but Verbatim labels other manufacturers products. There are probably other good brands as well.

[TBoneit]

If it is a brand name disc, made in Japan. It should be real!

A large company could not be bothered to use fakes, they just buy MIT if they wanted to save money. Another reason FUJI's for example wouldn't be fake IDs IMHO is that they are not being sold as Ty's They are being sold as FUJI brand. Same argument for Best Buy for example not selling fake Fuji's they have to big an investment in the company.

Cheers

[Seeker47]

The benefits of using a TBC hold true for Beta as well as any other analog tape format.

I have a Sima CT-200 on hand (which I haven't had occasion to use yet), but am uncertain if that has any real TBC qualifications.

I don't know. It sure sounds like media, except for your claim that off-cable recordings are fine.

And they have been, without exception. But I can certainly test several other brands of media, if that will help pin this down.

Perhaps your 520 is having difficulty with its external source.
Maybe there is some compatibility issue with the Beta VCR as a source.
I would try a different stable source. A VHS VCR tuner?
Do you have an S-Video source? Maybe that would make a difference...

There is an S-Video deck in another room. (A Panasonic, so it won't have the JVC built-in TBC advantage..) Swapping that in will be a pain, even temporarily, but I can try it when time permits.

[davideck]

I have a Sima CT-200 on hand (which I haven't had occasion to use yet), but am uncertain if that has any real TBC qualifications.

I think it is worth a try. Every experiment has value, even if it only confirms what is already suspected.

I don't know. It sure sounds like media, except for your claim that off-cable recordings are fine.

And they have been, without exception. But I can certainly test several other brands of media, if that will help pin this down.

How about burning an off-cable segment and an external source segment on the SAME disc and trying that???

[Seeker47]

I am not sure how widely faked TY media is but in this instance, it was sold under the GQ label with the "borrowed" TY media code. All the genuine TY media I have used is from Japan. I have never run across TY made in Taiwan. The other very good media is Verbatim made by MCC ( Mitsubishi Chemical Corp. ). .

Ever since I bought a Ritek DL 5-pack and 4 of them burned coasters, with the 5th. one being very marginal, I have avoided all the off brands. Whatever $$ you save, it just ain't worth it. I look for Verbatim a lot, sometimes TDK or Maxell, once in awhile Memorex. Made in Japan discs would be a sure purchase, but I usually only see either the Made in Taiwan or the Made in China discs being sold (in stores). So, I buy the former, and avoid the latter. Hopefully, that is the right move, but I'll probably start ordering TY online.

On these Fujis, the exact same product at Staples had spindles marked as being from either Taiwan or Japan. So, they must be multi-sourcing them. I did not buy any of the Taiwan-labeled Fujis, and so cannot test them. But, unless some of this stuff is mislabeled, you're probably right -- the Taiwan Fujis won't turn out to be TY.

[trhouse]

I forgot to mention. Though the GQ disks with the fake TY media code had anomolies in the test, the anomolies do not appear to be caused by data corrruption. I copied a GQ disk to a genuine TY and the playback was perfect and the anomolous behaviour vanished.

[donpedro]

What about lenght of recordings. I mean comparasion between recordings from Beta and TV. Actualy what I am trying to say is... Is it posible that that player has issues with higher bittrate ?

[donpedro]

How about burning an off-cable segment and an external source segment on the SAME disc and trying that???

This sound like great idea to identify source of problem.

[TBoneit]

I am not sure how widely faked TY media is but in this instance, it was sold under the GQ label with the "borrowed" TY media code. All the genuine TY media I have used is from Japan. I have never run across TY made in Taiwan. The other very good media is Verbatim made by MCC ( Mitsubishi Chemical Corp. ). .

Ever since I bought a Ritek DL 5-pack and 4 of them burned coasters, with the 5th. one being very marginal, I have avoided all the off brands. Whatever $$ you save, it just ain't worth it. I look for Verbatim a lot, sometimes TDK or Maxell, once in awhile Memorex. Made in Japan discs would be a sure purchase, but I usually only see either the Made in Taiwan or the Made in China discs being sold (in stores). So, I buy the former, and avoid the latter. Hopefully, that is the right move, but I'll probably start ordering TY online.

On these Fujis, the exact same product at Staples had spindles marked as being from either Taiwan or Japan. So, they must be multi-sourcing them. I did not buy any of the Taiwan-labeled Fujis, and so cannot test them. But, unless some of this stuff is mislabeled, you're probably right -- the Taiwan Fujis won't turn out to be TY.

I tried the Ritek DL +R too... I tried them in a Pioneer 109 and a Lite-On 1633S. The lite-on did better with them. The key point I found was that they were always OK under 7 Gig, so-so under 8gig and more bad than good over 8Gig. Always same problem. Wouldn't even verify after the 50% mark where the change over to the second layer occurred. The same disk would be playable again further in towards the center. This was on disks where they second layer played from the outside in. IOW 1st layer plays from the inside out as normal and then the second layer reverses direction. Not what you should see on a 8.5 Gig blank. But it may explain why some people rate them OK in the medai section and others do not have any luck.

The ones that verified played back OK on a Pioneer 531H Recorder. The Ones burned in the Lite-On also played in my Sony changer. The ones burned in the Pioneer 109 that verified played in the 531H but had funny playback on the Sony... Played but....

So what did I do... I went and bought some more as they are on sale this week @$2 a disk. Now that I know not to fill them up and on backups they will let me shrink by a lower percentage to get to 7 gig rather than 4.3 gig.
I'm still looking for verbatims to go on sale! the ones I saw this week at a steep price too, were made in Singapore. Verbatim singapore ??

Time will tell if they hold up or if I wasted my money.

Cheers

[Seeker47]

I'm still looking for verbatims to go on sale! the ones I saw this week at a steep price too, were made in Singapore. Verbatim singapore ??

That won't take the strangeness prize, TBoneit. I could swear I picked up a DVD blank somewhere that says it was made in Luxembourg ! I'll see if I can find it again, and run Identifier to get the actual mfr. code off it.

The Verbatim DLs don't seem to get any better than about the $20. per 3-pk. rate. If an appreciably better deal for those came along, I'd jump on it.