Fighting my Home associations

[jntaylor63]

OK,

I put my Sat Dish on the front side of my house, on the roof and right above the cable input lines that then feed into the cable outlets.

Two months later, I get a nasty gram from the association stating my violation and I must move it to the back side of my house. (Thus running extra cable and more holes in the siding. )

The truth is that I never signed the agreement to be part of this association. It was founded by the home buliders and I bought the house from another owner. (Not from the orginal bulider)

Anybody here had to fight this B.S.? I looked at the FCC rules and I don't have the strongest cases. http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

But, to a "best placement" case, I think that I can make a point:

1.) Safer to install and maintain
2.) Less damage to the home in terms of drilling

I would like some more ammo to fight this.

[Jayhawk]

This probably won't help you much. I also have a homeowners association but my neighbor moved in later and did not join. The local government ruled he had to abide by the rules whether he joined or not.

My group's stand on dishes is that they must go in the back UNLESS the back does not provide an acceptable signal (line of sight to the satellite). Since the back of my house faces Southwest I had to put it there (and wanted to) so I never had a conflict. The guy across the street was allowed to mount his on the side so her could hit the satellite. Not the front however.

Sorry I can't be more help.

[justinluck]

Take a picture of the front of the house and post it here. But yes, most places require the dish to be installed on the side.

[jntaylor63]

As quick as you have replied, looks like I'm screwed.

Its un F-ing real to think that I can't have a say over what I do with my own house. This now makes me want to put one of those big classic styled antenna for OTH HDTV. I was going with the Square Shooter (Looks like the Dish itself) but this should cheese them off better. They can do a thing to stop that. (At lesat thats how I read it)

[thecoalman]

I'm not a lawyer but I'd imagine there's a clause in the deed to the house? Somewhere there's some fine print stating that the house is part of the association, I don't see how there couldn't be. I'd also imagine this has to be disclosed before you purchase the house, the seller wouldn't be able to hide the fact.

Don't those associations collect dues? How would they have any authority to do so otherwise?

[Scooter_NJ]

Reach out to these people:

www.sbca.com

I know them from WAY back in the old C-Band days!!

[redwudz]

I've ran into this locally. When you buy into a subdivision, you may also automatically agree to whatever the original subdivision agreement contains. This is listed on your deed and recorded with the local planning commission. A friend of mine, even though he lives on a public street was told he couldn't park a trailer on the street or have a 'unsightly vehicle' in the driveway. He found out they were right. Could maybe fight it in court, but it is spelled out in the deed. Many subdivisions have specifications on what color you can paint your house, etc. However there are some Federal rulings on antenna placement. Check with the local satellite store and they should be able to clue you in.

[lordsmurf]

Who are these "mystery" people. What kind of loser does it take to complain and nag about something as silly as where you put a 18" satellite dish. It's not like you cemented the yard or have a mobile home in the driveway.

[ZAPPER]

I would like to take this oppertunity to tell you how to really screw with the neighborhood association. But the things that I would reccomend would be highly illeagle so I better just leave it to your own imagination.

I feel for you man. But in all honesty it is probally best to just bite the bullet and move the dish.

I have never had to deal with one of these groups, but all I do hear about them is nightmareish stories. Some of the best stories are from folks I know that bragged about the coveneces(SP) and great rules that were for everyones protection and property value upkeep issues. Only to end up making enemies out of neighbors

[fritzi93]

Yeah, covenants are about property values. Best if you comply and forget about it.

Unless...you can challenge some particular provision as illegal.

Our house is in a, hmm, not a development, it's a hundred years old. A few dozen old houses on the edge of town. The covenant dates from the 1920s and has all the usual provisions for that time: No privies or open cesspools, no hog-raising, etc. Oh, and no "coloreds".

As you can imagine, anyone would have to be nuts to invoke the covenant. No one ever has, so I suppose it technically remains in force. But there's no dues, no association meetings I ever heard of. Yet there it was on a copy of the old deed we got at closing. Weird.

[junkmalle]

Not sure if this applies to you:

http://www.davis-stirling.com/ds/pages/fcc_facts.htm

http://www.fiorelaw.com/legal3.htm

[lordsmurf]

Indeed!

LEGAL UPDATE - ANTENNAS/SATELLITE DISHES

The Federal Communications Commission has issued an opinion and order further clarifying, and further restricting, the ability of a community association to regulate the placement of antennas and satellite dishes. The opinion, entered in the Matter of Philip Wojcikewicz, CSR 6030-0 (September 29, 2003) involved a planned development of attached units, with association responsibility for roof repair and maintenance. Even though the association was responsible to repair and maintain the roofs, and had an easement for the purpose of doing so, the Commission ruled that the roof was "within the exclusive use OR control" of the homeowner, and that the homeowner had a "direct or indirect ownership or leasehold interest in the property." Thus, according to the Commission, the FCC Rule which restricts the ability of an association to control the placement of antennas and satellite dishes applied. The FCC's Rule provides that an association may not impose or enforce its own rule or covenant regarding antennas if it would delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use of the antenna; increase the cost of its installation, maintenance or use; or preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal. The FCC Rule applies to antennas and dishes installed in areas owned OR controlled by homeowners. In addition to finding that the homeowner has a right to place an antenna on the roof with only negligible restrictions, the Commission made the following findings:

An association may not require prior approval for any dish or antenna covered by the FCC Rule.

An association may only require a "simple notification" by an owner that he or she has installed, or soon will install, an antenna/dish.

Mr. Wojcikewicz's 6' X 8' television antenna is covered by the FCC Rule, and it is not simply limited to satellite dishes.

An association seeking to establish preferred areas for placement of antennas has the burden of showing that the preferred placement does not impair the ability of the antenna to receive signals.

An Association may not "arbitrarily" limit the number of antennas or dishes a homeowner has. (In this case, a limitation of one dish or antenna per household was deemed arbitrary.)

An Association may not require that the installation of an antenna or dish comply with building codes or the manufacturer's instructions.

Any restriction against placing an antenna or dish on any particular element (such as a chimney) must be supported by findings that the placement would give rise to a specific safety or other concern.

Managers should suggest that boards review and modify their current satellite dish/antenna policies and, as appropriate, consult legal counsel regarding any questions about revisions which might be needed in light of this opinion.

[ZAPPER]

Looks like it may be something that can be fought for. But unless the signal was really an issue I would take the path of least resistance. Just for fun I might consider getting a "company" to give me an outragous price quote to move the dish. Then I would submit it to the home owners group and say that I am going to comply, but being the law says that I don't have to, the home owners group must eat the cost. Being that it is my right not to have my lawn disturbed by a bucket truck it will cost very much to have protective planking laid across the lawn. And since It is also my right to have any repairs or patches to be of like new finish, it will be nessesary to paint at least the street fasing side of the house to match. And being I don't like the smell of paint I will have to be put up in a hotel while the work takes place and have to hire a consulting group to oversee the workmanship.

Do you get the impression that I don't really like being told what to do?

[thevoelk]

That may be the case I'm thinking of, but I remember a few years back in area around Columbia, Maryland a homeowner was in the same position as you and actually went to court against the homeowners association. The HA lost. I remember hearing on our local radio the hosts saying the judge said that since the area is only served by Comcast cable, and that they did not allow dishes, the HA was almost forcing the homeowner to pay for Comcast.

Threaten them with a previous court case that is similar and ruled in favor of the homeowner, and they
back down. It's worth a shot.

[ZAPPER]

Who are these "mystery" people. What kind of loser does it take to complain and nag about something as silly as where you put a 18" satellite dish. It's not like you cemented the yard or have a mobile home in the driveway.

Man! When you edit, you edit!

It must be easier or faster to edit that to submit a whole new post or something, huh?

[BJ_M]

i guess they would have a big problem with the huge 20'+ CB radio beam ant. that were pretty popular back in the 70's when everyone was doing 'CB Radio'

They would often be as big as your whole roof or sometimes even larger.


breaker breaker there good buddy - that's a big 10-4

[dun4cheap]

Well frankly I think you are exagerating quite a bit here. However if you did not know your unit belonged to an HOA/CC&R's than you obviously did not research your purchase prior to buying property which is not very smart to begin with.

The law that you need to research is the David Sterling act which covers satelite dishes and HOA/Association with CC&Rs. The fact of the matter is associations cannot stop you from installing a satelite dish but they certainly can set requirements as to where they can be placed. Most associations usually look to have them placed in the least conspicuous place. The reason for this is your immediate neighbor may not want to look out of their window to see your dish.

Its amazing the idiots that buy in to an Association and then later on complain about the rules. Another thing is usually the inside of the unit is yours and not the outside. So to say its your house is now quite accurate. Also lets not forget that a percentage of the Association is yours. Say there are 100 units in the complex, then you would own 1/100 of the project.

On the West Coast of the US it has become almost impossible to purchase property that does not have some sort of CC&R's. Many people have chosen this type of living so they know their property will always look good. While I would not recommend buying in to an HOA, but on the other side of it, have you driven around neighborhoods that are not bound to cc&rs that are 30+ years old. Many of the homes are run down, need painting, no lawns, roof is old and leaking, lawn is dead. These owners typically are living month to month and are not disciplined enough to save money to properly do repairs on a regular basis. The end result are 12 satelite dishes on the house, and a junky neighborhood.

[dun4cheap]

BTW, I didn't mean to bust your balls, but I hear this complaint all the time. (Everyday to be precise) The fact of the matter is the original concept of an HOA is great, it ensures quality of life, secured property value and the security of knowing that your home will look just as good 30 years from now as it did when it was first built.

However, this comes at a cost of less freedom to make exterior changes, monthly assessments which usually will increase yearly do to cost of goods and lets face it the older your property the more repairs are needed.

I could spend hours explaining all of this. The fact is, if you had researched the rules and restrictions prior to installing the dish, you would have saved yourself a lot of agrivation and probably would have installed it properly to begin with. Most HOA's are reasonable and try to adapt to new concepts like Vinyl Windows, screen doors, security bars, and satelite dishes. However they need to maintain control to ensure that the appearance of the project is not changed drastically.

The main problem here is you made a change without approval and got caught. Rather than try to rectify the problem by following the guidelines you are trying to find a short cut. This usally does not work in most HOA's. By the way you may want to take a look around your property for other addons that may have been done by previous homeowners of your unit that may not have approval either. Like a patio cover, air conditioner etc and make sure they have been approved as well.

[lordsmurf]

I disagree with "short cut". More like anti-bullshit posturing. You spent $100,000 on a house, you damned sure better be able to make a few changes, and like I said earlier, it's not like he's being unreasonable. If an 18" dish is bothering somebody that much, they need to get a ******* life.

[redwudz]

Concerning dun4cheap, all true. Buyer beware. You need to know and become familiar with your homeowners association rules before you buy. It's in your deed and must be disclosed by the seller. It is also available at your local government right of way/land use office.

You want to ask about covenants concerning your property. Having your assessment parcel number will speed things up. There is little info involving who governs the homeowners association and what authority they have. Kind of the rule is, if you piss them off, they will come after you.

As lordsmurf shows, you have rights. Learn what they are. Worst case, you might have to get a hearing in front of the local planning board. If so, get some other property owners to back you up. Even if they are in similar subdivisions, it will help.

EDIT: I should add in the purpose of the covenants in a homeowners association rules are to preserve property values. What you do on your property can effect the value of neighboring properties, and this is the legal basis of these type of rules. If you are causing economic damage to you neighbors, then you may be liable for damages. Whether you agree or not, it's up to a court to decide whether damages exist. But some associations are anal and you can probably fight them successfully if it's a common sense situation.

If you can get a bunch of people together, hire an attorney together. You can also do all this without an attorney if you know your facts and present them objectively.

[ZAPPER]

Yep, if you want to live like ants in close contact with each other you will have to put up with neighbors. Give me country living any day. Land spreading out far and wide.

Actually I too do have to deal with the home owners association. And it is over the sat dish. It seems that the woods is gaining on the yard and the dish, and my ole lady says that I need to cut back some trees. I guess I will have to fire up the chainsaw on a Sunday

[ZAPPER]

I disagree with "short cut". More like anti-bullshit posturing. You spent $100,000 on a house, you damned sure better be able to make a few changes, and like I said earlier, it's not like he's being unreasonable. If an 18" dish is bothering somebody that much, they need to get a ******* life.

Sorry, I had to catch this one before you edited it LS

But I do agree with you that something like this is petty. If people don't like the way that I present my house then offer up some serious cash and I will sell it to them. One of the rules that I keep hearing about is the no pick-up trucks parked in sight rule, when a soccer moms suv is sitting on the same frame. I have also heard of two car rules or that all cars must be in a garage. What happens when a happy family grows and it is time for junior to get his own wheels and there is not enough garage space?

Maybe JT63 should confront these people and tell them "Look the damage is done. It is not obscene or a health risk. It does not subtract from the value of anyones house. I do not wish to move it. If you keep messing with me I will take great pleasure in makeing you unhappy wether I win or loose and at any cost. Now get out of my face.

I wouldn't promote violating the rules just to get a rise out of them, but like I said, if the damage has already been done...

[pyscrow]

Stuff em - tell em to get stuffed, if they do finally force you to move it, get and old wreck and stick it in the front yard on blocks. Tell em it goes when you dish comes back.

[Cobra]

How big are those dishes anyway? Nobody has a problem with them in the UK (at least where I am) - they are very small:

[painkiller]

I had that problem once.
Living in a community with a homeowners association.

I could go on about how they railed against a neighbor of mine because of their satellite dish.

Everything was done on the sly.
My only comment about the whole, 9 month event, was why they wouldn't just walk up to the front door, introduce themselves and talk nice about the whole thing. Instead of lawsuits and threats.

I moved away (for other reasons).

But my next house doesn't have any stupid associations with folks who have nothing better to do than to poke their noses into your business.

[dun4cheap]

Lordsmurf,

You miss the picture here the fact of the matter is the exterior dwelling is part of the Association. So if you paid a $100,000 then you paid for the air space and the interior walls. Escrow and Title companies are required to request documents and give them to the purchaser for review. Many homeowners blow through this and purchase the unit and then cry the blues.

Now with that said, there are different types of CC&Rs, Planned HOA communities, Local Ordinances and Local CC&Rs. The more popular ones which took off in the 70's were the planned unit condominiums which typically are run by the unit homeowners via a board that is elected by the majority of the homeowners.

The main problem is the lack of homeowner involvement to begin with. Take a complex that has 600 units, on average maybe 14-16 homeowners or residents will attend monthly meetings. Lets not forget the 3, 7, or 10 volunteers who may have been elected on to the board. They are unpaid and expected to uphold the CC&R's and Rules and Regs.

Now with all this, many people like rules and order until it is applied to them. Usually the begining is a letter of violation, you may not be aware which is what started this thread. Then supporters who scream in the background "If I Paid 100,000 for my home then I will be changing the exterior as I please". Ok lets think about your options:

Fact:

1. You purchased your unit knowing that you would be bound by the CC&Rs and Rules. (So get over it)

2. Put yourself in the shoes of the Board, they have to make decisions that benefit the majority not the minority. (I must add that these board members do not get paid)

3. Think about this, an Association the size of 600 units whom all pay $200-$400 a month in dues, this is the equivalent of a medium size company with a $1,000,000+ budget.

Perspective:

The complaint is more of a whining gripe. A simple call to the HOA prior to installing the dish would have saved the main gripe. The main gripe being that its going to cost this homeowner a little more money to move the dish to where it belongs because he didn't call to begin with.

[dun4cheap]

jntaylor63,

One major suggestion, if you were to change the rule how would you change it. Try to give a solution to a problem rather than complain about the rule. By the way when you do this keep in mind its not just your neighborhood, so apply you solution to every unit that is in your community and make sure this is going to work for all.

I think you will find that the best solution is already being applied. But who knows, rules are guidlines and can change time to time.

good luck and try to help in the solution and not be the problem.

[thecoalman]

Lordsmurf,

You miss the picture here the fact of the matter is the exterior dwelling is part of the Association. So if you paid a $100,000 then you paid for the air space and the interior walls.
.

HOA's can apply to more than just large complexes. Single dwellinng homes which is what I think the OP is discussing here can be part of one too. There's a wide variety of places where they exist from trailer parks up too and including multi million dollar homes. In a lot of cases it's like a mini government, they have rules for how high you can let the grass grow, what you can put in your lawn such as ornammentation and as we are discussing here where yopu can place the sattelite dish on your house. You own the entire house and the land it sits on but you need to follow the HOA rules just as you would the local goverment rules.

[dun4cheap]

It really depends on what is in the local governing documents.

[jntaylor63]

A update to my issue,

Well, I didn't move the dish and I did put up an OTA Element Style Antenna for my Local HD / SD stations.

Got another letter from the HOA. This type they tell me that my OTA antenna is not even allowed! (On top of the Dish placement.) They sent a copy of the agreement with my violations highlighted in yellow. They also told me that I could face legal action and additional fines.

That just pushed me over the limit. I wrote back and told them of my rights under the FCC ruling. (granted it covers me more for the Antenna more than anything) I also told them that I would be more than happy to speak / write letters and tell the media what type of HOA agreement you would have to sign into if you buy a home from XYZ. (Along with other stupid rules such as No Play ground sets higher than 5 feet and no storage sheds in the back yard)

That seemed to do the trick. Got a phone call from these asshats. The lady said that they were not aware of the FCC ruling and would let me keep the antenna and dish where it is. She also asked that I not write such letters to the media. Their rules were written to keep the quality of the home area to its highest. When I asked who came up with these rules, she didn't know.

Not sure if this action will work with for anyone else here. But it shows that if you don't try to stand-up for your rights and freedoms, there will be groups who will take it away because they know what's best.

USA VideoHelp members need to stay tuned. The next fight will be what paid TV programming you can / can't see in the name of decency and for the protection of our children.