Variable IRE input levels?

[gwoiler]

Can anyone tell me a make and model of a DVD Recorder that will allow you to set the input IRE setting? I need to have 2 options. I need it to just pass-thru the input with no alterations, and then I need it to strip or lower the IRE by 7.5 which most do. I also need this machine to have 7.5 added to playback or a setting to enable-disable. I have tried a GoVideo unit, Samsung, Philips and Magnovox. All had differing problems but none had the features I am looking for. The Philips did the best but I could not rip the disk with Shrink! The GoVideo and Samsung's disks would not duplicate in a stand alone duplicator, or in a computer. It also needs FireWire input. Thanks for the help! Glenn

[FulciLives]

The Pioneer models have two IRE settings. One is to be used when the source is 7.5 IRE BLACK and the other setting is to be used when the source is 0.0 IRE BLACK.

All NTSC (other than Japanese NTSC) should be 7.5 IRE BLACK whereas everything else should be 0.0 IRE BLACK (and yes that includes Japanese NTSC).

FIREWIRE input is not that important. You will get visually the same quality using the analog outputs of your camcorder as you do using the DV output. In theory the DV option is "best" but some tests have showed that the every-so-slight "softening" of the analog out works better!

In short DV out from a DV cam can look better but sometimes the analog out will look better but in the end ... either way ... the quality will really be about the same. Don't get "crazy" over "needing" a DVD recorder with DV in is all I am saying.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gwoiler]

So then your saying that all the Pioneer DVD recorders give the option for 7.5 or 0 IRE on INPUT? How is the menu capabilities? The GoVideo did not use an index picture, but had a whole line for the chapter title whereas all the others had painfully little room for text but did let you set the index picture.

What Pioneer model would you recommend for me? I don't want a harddrive in the recorder. I do want options that most pros would want.

Thanks, Glenn

[Frobozz]

The Pioneer models have the IRE (and other video ajustments) available for recording and for playback. The have nine menu options. Three show 3 Titles per page, three show 4 Titles per page and three show 6 Titles per page. Each Title is shown with a thumbnail image from the video (which use choose) and some text. They are basic but adequate. The menu does not appear when you insert the disc unless you press the Menu button on the remote. Otherwise the disc will start playing from the first Title. Titles automatically play from one to the next without going to the Menu.

Pioneer recently released new models that have a better quality MPEG encoder (but also lost some popular features). Only the hard drive models now have Firewire. Last year's DVR-320S has Firewire and no hard drive and I highly recommend it. B&H Photo may still have it in stock. The new hard drive model is not much more money, however.

The hard drive models are the DVR-533H-S and DVR-633H-S which are identical except the 533 has an 80GB hard drive and the 633 has a 160GB hard drive. The previous comparable model is the DVR-520H-S.

[gwoiler]

Thanks for your help. I have bought and returned 4 units so far, and now I feel I will get one that is a keeper. .....bummer, I just went to B&H and looked at the DVR-320S and it does not have firewire. I'll look at the others on your list. (second edit) funny, the picture at B&H shows the firewire port but the specs say no. I'll call them

Glenn

[Frobozz]

The 320S does have Firewire. It is the 220S and 233S that does not.

[gshelley61]

The new Pioneer DVR-531H (available at Wal Mart), the 533H and the 633H are exceptionally nice machines. They have a full array of input video picture adjustments, including black level setup for 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE sources... and a variable black level adjustment for further tweaking. They've added a variable gamma adjustment, too (which adjusts the video response curve for black and white levels). No other machine has as many adjustments to tweak your source image.

These new units can also burn the new dual layer 8.5GB DVD-R's. They all have a built-in hard drive, and have a super high quality XP+ (15Mbps) recording mode with a quasi two pass re-encode at a lower compliant bitrate setting of your choice to DVD. I think these are the most well thought out and (useful) feature laden DVD recorders so far. And, the price is right! $337 at Wal Mart for the 531, with a built-in 80GB hard drive (no firewire input on the 531, though... get the 533 or 633 if you need a DV input).

Stay away from the new entry level DVR-231/233. They do not have any of the adjustment features the older entry level Pioneer units had.

[gwoiler]

Question.... Will the hard drive models allow editing? Will they for instance, let you trim one or 2 minutes off the beginning of a program?

[gwoiler]

Be advised, that the 320S that B&H sells has no firewire port. I just spoke to them and they said this years model dropped the port. It was last years model that had it.

[gshelley61]

Be advised, that the 320S that B&H sells has no firewire port. I just spoke to them and they said this years model dropped the port. It was last years model that had it.

There is no "this year's" DVR-320. It has been discontinued and replaced by the DVR-231 and DVR-233. The Pioneer 20 series units were last year's models. You can still find some 320's on eBay, but you'd be far better off buying a DVR-533H instead (if you need the firewire input).

[gwoiler]

Thanks... I just orderred a 533 for about $350 including shipping from LetsGo Digital. (found it on google)

[Frobozz]

One thing to be aware of, you will not have a Pioneer warranty unless this is an authorized Pioneer reseller (which I'm pretty sure it is not).

[gshelley61]

One thing to be aware of, you will not have a Pioneer warranty unless this is an authorized Pioneer reseller (which I'm pretty sure it is not).

Correct... if you want Pioneer to honor their service warranty, you must buy from an authorized online retailer (Vann's, OneCall, etc.), or an authorized brick and mortar store. Pioneer has a list of their authorized online dealers on their website.

Personally, I bought my 531 for cheap on eBay and forego the warranty. Not everyone would want to do that, however.

[gwoiler]

Well, this is what it said... and I am not bashfull to go all the way to make a merchant keep their word. I once got the Attorney General of my state involved to get Sony to replace a VX1000 with a VX2000 when they repeatedly could not fix it.

Box Contents

Pioneer DVR-533H-S DVD Recorder
Remote Control, batteries
User's manual
***Warranty: 1 year parts and labor***

http://store.yahoo.com/gigabuyz/dvr533hs.html

[gshelley61]

Well, this is what it said... and I am not bashfull to go all the way to make a merchant keep their word. I once got the Attorney General of my state involved to get Sony to replace a VX1000 with a VX2000 when they repeatedly could not fix it.

Box Contents

Pioneer DVR-533H-S DVD Recorder
Remote Control, batteries
User's manual
***Warranty: 1 year parts and labor***

http://store.yahoo.com/gigabuyz/dvr533hs.html

They are likely doing an in-house return/replace warranty, which is fine in my book. These units are pretty darn reliable... you probably have nothing to worry about.

[gwoiler]

I agree. The last unit I tried was a Philips. They did a good job of packaging it with all cables less a DV cable. It had component IN which I tried with my NLE. I could not tell the difference in quality between the DV and Analog input. I guess they give a slightly lower price because this apparently comes with no cables which is odd. But I have plenty.

[edDV]

The new Pioneer DVR-531H (available at Wal Mart), the 533H and the 633H are exceptionally nice machines. They have a full array of input video picture adjustments, including black level setup for 7.5 IRE or 0 IRE sources... and a variable black level adjustment for further tweaking. They've added a variable gamma adjustment, too (which adjusts the video response curve for black and white levels). No other machine has as many adjustments to tweak your source image.

That unit has all the essential "proc amp" adjustments. Getting black right is 60% of the problem anyway.

I'm starting to get interested. If they would just add a TBC optimised for VHS.

[gshelley61]

The adjustments built-in to the Pioneer DVD recorders work great, but mainly for decent quality sources. For example, the chroma and hue adjustments are very mild... not nearly enough range for restoration or color correction work. Still, the black level controls are really effective and make the job much easier, even when using more powerful outboard proc amps, TBC's and detailers.

I was messing around with an early CBS (1980's era release) Star Wars CAV laserdisc (analog audio, no surround sound) last night. I used a combination of my Pioneer CLD-D704 LD player (composite out), a Vidicraft Detailer III to squeeze a bit more sharpness out of the signal, the SignVideo Proc Amp to pull down the chroma level and boost the luma a bit, and the Pioneer DVR-531H DVD recorder (composite video in). My input video settings were 7.5 IRE setup, Y/C separation filter one notch towards "Motion", Y (luma) noise reduction off, C (chroma) noise reduction max, detail off, chroma neutral, hue neutral, gamma neutral, white level neutral, black level neutral, and white level AGC off.

I recorded about 40 minutes at XP+ (15 Mbps) to the hard drive, then re-encoded at SP to disc. Pretty impressive result for an old, fairly grainy laserdisc with lots of chroma noise... going from XP+ to SP does not seem to cause any loss of sharpness or detail at all, and there are very few compression artifacts that I could see, even during the high motion sequences. I'm very happy so far!

[gwoiler]

My input video settings were 7.5 IRE setup, Y/C separation filter one notch towards "Motion", Y (luma) noise reduction off, C (chroma) noise reduction max, detail off, chroma neutral, hue neutral, gamma neutral, white level neutral, black level neutral, and white level AGC off.

Sooo... You had detail to off but were using an external processor for sharpness. Why? and.... you had NR off... is that because there was no video noise form the laser disc? I have a panasonic pro SVHS deck (1860) with sharpness control and NR, and when I use it with one older NLE [mjpeg] it makes artifacts but with DV it does not. I wonder how it will work with this Pioneer DVD recorder?

[gshelley61]

My input video settings were 7.5 IRE setup, Y/C separation filter one notch towards "Motion", Y (luma) noise reduction off, C (chroma) noise reduction max, detail off, chroma neutral, hue neutral, gamma neutral, white level neutral, black level neutral, and white level AGC off.

Sooo... You had detail to off but were using an external processor for sharpness. Why? and.... you had NR off... is that because there was no video noise form the laser disc? I have a panasonic pro SVHS deck (1860) with sharpness control and NR, and when I use it with one older NLE [mjpeg] it makes artifacts but with DV it does not. I wonder how it will work with this Pioneer DVD recorder?

Yes, well it all depends on the source video and what idiosyncratic problems it has and what improvements can possibly be made. In the case of this particular laserdisc, the Detail boost on both the Vidicraft external unit and the internal detail adjustment in the Pioneer DVD recorder were not much help because the source was already kind of grainy. The Sharpness boost on the Vidicraft unit operates at a different video frequency spectrum than the Detail boost does, and produces sharper edges as opposed to bringing out more overall detail. The laserdisc didn't really have much luma noise to speak of, but did have substantial chroma noise in the darker scenes (especially the ones with blue and red lighting)... plus it was too color saturated in most scenes, making the chroma noise even worse. So, I applied maximum chroma noise reduction with the DVD recorder and used the SignVideo Proc Amp to back down the chroma level (the Pioneer did not have enough range to reduce the chroma as much as I wanted to). With digital capturing of analog video, if the source chroma is too hot, you will wind up with color banding and splotching.

The built in sharpness controls in many VCR's, even the really well made machines, are sometimes way too aggressive and produce lots of edge ghosting. The Vidicraft Detailers (and the SignVideo DR-1000) are powerful, but much more refined and transparent in maintaining image quality while boosting video high frequencies (which is what sharpeners and detailers do).

Bottom line - try a variety of settings and make short test recordings for each specific source. Every tape, every laserdisc, every channel and program on TV all vary. For a top quality transfer, each source must be dealt with one at a time. There is no "one setting fits all" for this.

[gwoiler]

Thanks

g