FCC overstepped authority on digital TV-US court

[louv68]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=522183

Feb. 22, 2005 - A U.S. appeals court on Tuesday said that regulators had overstepped their authority by imposing a rule designed to limit the copying of digital television programs.

"You crossed the line," Judge Harry Edwards told a lawyer for the Federal Communications Commission during arguments before a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit.

"Selling televisions is not what the FCC is in the business of," Edwards said, siding with critics who charge the rule dictates how computers and other devices should work.

But it was unclear whether the judges would strike down the FCC's 2003 rule, since doubts were also raised about whether the American Library Association and other opponents had legal standing to challenge the rule in court.

After hearing arguments, the court usually takes several months to issue a ruling.

The FCC rule aims to limit people from sending copies of digital television programs over the Internet. The FCC has said copyright protections are needed to help speed the adoption of digital television.

Under the FCC rule, programers can attach a code, or flag, to digital broadcasts that would, in most cases, bar consumers from sending unauthorized copies of popular shows over the Web.

The rule requires manufacturers of television sets that receive digital over-the-air broadcast signals to produce sets that can read the digital code by July 1 of this year.

The rule has been criticized by some consumer groups, who say that it could raise prices to consumers and that it sets a bad precedent by allowing broadcasters to dictate how computers and other devices should be built.

Edwards and one of the other two judges, David Sentelle, agreed with the critics and told FCC lawyer Jacob Lewis that the law does not give the agency specific authority to dictate how electronic devices must be made.

"It's never been done before," Sentelle said, agreeing with Edwards that the rule could set a precedent for a wide range of other new FCC regulations.

But Sentelle also said he had serious doubts about whether the library association and other critics had standing to sue.

Courts have long held that parties have standing only when they can show that an agency ruling will cause them a unique, "particularized" harm, Sentelle said.

"The harm to us is the harm to consumers," responded Pantelis Michalopoulos, an attorney for the petitioners in the case. "Our members are consumers."

Sentelle was unconvinced, saying it's not enough to argue that the rule will raise the price of Internet content to consumers in general.

Neither Edwards nor the other judge on the panel, Judge Judith Rogers, indicated whether they agreed with Sentelle on the issue of legal standing.

[cal_tony]

Very, very interesting. Don't know where it will go, but it is a very important window for the future of the dissemination of information in general.

[Gurm]

Why? There's a gigantic assumption here - that people will voluntarily use software that honors that flag...

[BJ_M]

Why? There's a gigantic assumption here - that people will voluntarily use software that honors that flag...

the point is that it is built into the hardware - they were not addressing the software aspect ..

[cal_tony]

Quote:
"Selling televisions is not what the FCC is in the business of," Edwards said, siding with critics who charge the rule dictates how computers and other devices should work.

To Gurm: are there ways around what they want to do, probably. The importance of it is that the Govt. in the form of the FCC has taken it upon itself to tell companies Mfg digital products how their products will work and except for librarians complaining, no one else seems to care. For awhile, I expected to see a unified front by the mfg. companies complaining about all of this, but so far, nothing.

Maybe, I'm paranoid, but ever since the begining of the digital age I have watched governments in general, but especially the U.S. government slowly by slowly begin working to regain control of digital information. A good start to regain this control is to mandate worldwide how stuff will be made and what options Mfg. will be allowed to provide.

[Gurm]

Yes, I know. The consumer implications are very minor though, which was my point.

But it DOES set a disturbing precedent.

Then again, after the V-chip people are slow to care about anything of this nature.

[cal_tony]

The V chip was the begining but it was differant. With the V chip the Govt. mandated that consumers be allowed additional control over a device . Since it worked out so well -- Not much legal flack-- this new stuff is comming fast and furious. but now the consumer will not be in control. Politicians are always talking about the slippery slope, and how even the most insignificant details have to be viewed with the slippery slope in mind. This is the slippery slope that their talking about.[/b]

[edDV]

The center of oposition is not the librarians, it is here.
http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/HDTV/

[EvilWizardGlick]

No matter what they do, it will fail. Well the masses will accept it.
Keep in mind that region free players and DIVX players have a market due to these type of restrictions. Both are geared to a specific minority as are mod chips and MV defeaters.
In the end, we the minority, always win.

[BJ_M]

No matter what they do, it will fail. Well the masses will accept it.
Keep in mind that region free players and DIVX players have a market due to these type of restrictions. Both are geared to a specific minority as are mod chips and MV defeaters.
In the end, we the minority, always win.

you dont get it --- region free and all that crap are not law ...

what is talked about above is the LAW and no way around it .....

[jpconard]

We are not a minority. Hollywood and government try to make everybody believe that. The problem is the masses don't pay attention until it is too late and then "you mean it can't do that...I can't record that..." Too late Hollywood and government slipped it past you once again.

At that point you are forced to accept it, what are you going to do, tell them to rewire your big screen TV?

Read my post in capturing about Microsoft and TIVO aligning with Macrovision on analog feeds. Same thing these companies have already made concessions on their current and future products. To the point of absurdity, that these products will be worthless. Do you want a media center than can only hold a recorded program for 1 day.. I think not.

The masses are one step behind technology wise and have many other things in life to worry about, then when they get the good technology it has no features left.

Hollywood lost the VCR lawsuit and they continue to fight by taking sneaky little steps with governments help and no fighting by the big guys (Microsoft, cable companies), until you don't have the capability to do what the VCR won.

Yes we can find ways around these things, but then we are labeled as the minority (and truly are at that point) and as criminals.

But yes, there are some people that believe the VCR should have never been made legal for recording TV shows, but I believe (hope) that they truly are a minority.

I guess all we can do now is complain to the big guys and government and keep spreading this info around so everybody knows it.

[BJ_M]

some day the gov. may listen to the people that elected them (fat chance) , but hollywood says they will not release high quality content in a timely fashion if this is the case and of course nothing can make them - except "money" ... if just one studio doesnt bow down - they all will follow or lose market share ..

[BJ_M]

i would not hold your breath though

[jpconard]

It is also affecting "low-quality" analog signals.

Check out this -
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3
and this -
http://news.com.com/Microsoft%2C+Macrovision+align+on+copy+protection/2100-1030_3-5557...?tag=sas.email

I think government did maybe listen more in the old days, maybe that is why VCRs were allowed to exist plus the fact so many people had them (universal appliance). Now they must just care about the money from Hollywood. I thought TIVO would have so much hardware in place that they could never imagine restrictions but they are.

I don't understand it. It technology was allowed to progress every consumer would be happier, there may be copying this and that going on, but in the end more people would purchase HD-DVDs and equipment.

I would think Hollywood would make more money than ever far outweighing the negative aspects of open broadcasts. Think about it HD DVDs, players, recorders, 1080p screens, music that can play on any player, any format, on and on..

All that stuff could be here now, I think it is being held up somewhat by all this mess. (And at lower prices I might add.)

[BJ_M]

reason and logic don't really factor in here ...

[edDV]

This all extends deeper than most people think. If you bought a HDTV before HDCP encryption was included on the DVI/HDMI inputs, then you will not be able to play any CSS (copy protected) HD DVD from a HD DVD player except at 480P even if you own the DVD.

The same is potentially true for record flagged DTV braodcasts depending on options selected by the content author. Old HDTV sets will be forced to display 480P (EDTV). "Old" means 6-9 months old.

Let the legal and political wars begin, but going in, Hollywood holds all the cards.

[NightWing]

Was listing to Leo Laport last weekend.

I though I hear somthing to the effect of the FCC chairman saying that Hollywood was banging on "his" case and he had to give them something.

Also it looks like all equipment from before it goes into effect is llegal but any after is not.

From the same people bring you the lovely, cant work, wont work, stuped concept of BPL!

[lordsmurf]

some day the gov. may listen to the people that elected them (fat chance) , but hollywood says they will not release high quality content in a timely fashion if this is the case and of course nothing can make them - except "money" ... if just one studio doesnt bow down - they all will follow or lose market share ..

Oh no. I'm scared. Big bad mafia MPAA making threats

Whatever shall we do without all those reality shows and J-Lo movies.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Finally a court that has the balls to stand up to Hollywood/MPAA!
It's a small step but hopefully more consumer protection will come.
Hollywood keeps making the same lame case that they did in the Universal Studios vs. Sony case in the 80's and the DAT tape fiasco in the 90's..."we made it and the public has no right to make a copy"...blah...blah...blah.

[EvilWizardGlick]

No matter what they do, it will fail. Well the masses will accept it.
Keep in mind that region free players and DIVX players have a market due to these type of restrictions. Both are geared to a specific minority as are mod chips and MV defeaters.
In the end, we the minority, always win.

you dont get it --- region free and all that crap are not law ...

what is talked about above is the LAW and no way around it .....

No you don't get it, region free is the violating the LAW. Why do you think all the menus are HIDDEN, or hacks?
DIVX is only for DOWNLOADED video. MOD chips are used for only one PURPOSE.
Use a little common sense.
Laws are violated everyday.

[MOVIEGEEK]

In the US:
Macrovision=grey area,VHS is ok.
Region coding=invented by the MPAA,lawful to bypass.
CSS/2=NOT lawful to bypass.
HDCP=grey area,still under review.

[jpconard]

Well, maybe it is about time some consumers got together and started some class-action lawsuits against TIVO that will no longer hold pay-per-view or on demand movies indefinitely.

Or those that EdDv says have HDTV that are only 6-9 months old but won't really play HD DVD.

I expect many more problems in the future with hardware if these Digital flag and Macrovision changes continue.

Maybe when the manufacturers get some legal threats of the product not performing as designed, advertised, and sold then they may have to push back on Hollywood and the government.

[NightWing]

if you think HDTV is a mess for consumer. Ask a sales person. Its an utter mess!

[BJ_M]

No you don't get it, region free is the violating the LAW. Why do you think all the menus are HIDDEN, or hacks?
DIVX is only for DOWNLOADED video. MOD chips are used for only one PURPOSE.
Use a little common sense.
Laws are violated everyday.

region coding is not in any law -- that is the funnest thing i heard today i think ...

service codes / menus are hidden so the average putz dosn't screw up their 30$ walmart special .... no other reason ..

DiVX is not only for downloaded video -- i think that might be the third funnest thing i heard today ...

Mod chips are used for two purposes - so you can play your backed up game or one you downloaded ... in some cases - for other things also ..

i'll just skip the common sense and use the facts for now

[canadateck]

I thought it was Law that they couldnt openly sell "Region Free Players" and Other region DVD's like Region 2 3 4 5 if your country was Region 1.
This is what I thought.

[BJ_M]

I thought it was Law that they couldnt openly sell "Region Free Players" and Other region DVD's like Region 2 3 4 5 if your country was Region 1.
This is what I thought.

afaik - there is no laws on the books...

"According to OpenDVD.org, DVD players with region codes are illegal in New Zealand. Additionally, DVD regions are rumored to violate certain World Trade Organization laws ..."

[BJ_M]

yes -- just checked the dvd specs - region encoding is totally optional ... not a requirement or law anywhere

[canadateck]

I quess the big stores would feel presure if they did sell these products.

[BJ_M]

nope -- in fact futureshop carries all sorts region free players ... they also still sell dvdxcopy off thier web site ..

[canadateck]

nope -- in fact futureshop carries all sorts region free players ... they also still sell dvdxcopy off thier web site ..

Marked as Region free? I know they sell all kinds that can be made region free.