Which cammcorder should I buy?

[spiluka]

I'd like to record high quality family videos like birthday parties and such and my budget is around 1300 dollars. I'd like to buy a camcorder that will produce high quality video, but dont know what format to choose. I know I want the hard drive one, so I can easily transfer files to computer without spending time capturing from tape, but dont know which format to choose. I'm assuming I should buy high definition hard drive camcorder, but I noticed those are in 2 major formats: AVCHD and MPEG2.

Can you please tell me which one I should choose? I will need to store/play those videos on PC computers and also burn to REGULAR DVD (I know quality will be lost). Should I go with MPEG2 or AVCHD? by the way I will be shopping at futureshop.ca or bestbuy.ca so, if you're kind enough to recommend one from the site that would be great!

Thanks guys!

[Soopafresh]

If you really want the hard drive type, then AVCHD is the way to go.

Any of the Canon line are really good - HF-10 or HG-10 They're $700-850

And if you want to take REALLY GOOD videos, get a tripod AND a Steadicam type stabilizer like this one

http://www.b-hague.co.uk/Camcorder%20Stabilizer%20HCS3.htm $150

Hi Def camcorder footage looks like crap if you just try holding the camera steady in your hands. You need stabilization. Seriously. You're going to try to talk yourself out of it, but don't.


You can also get a Raynox wide angle lens - $150

Finally, a better microphone than the stock one found on the camera $100

There you go, I just spent your $1300

Looking at your PC hardware specs, your system is going to choke on Hi Def material. Just a heads up.

You can convert the video to DVD quality with an app like ConvertXtoDVD

[edDV]

The "standard" format that meets your requirement is AVCHD which is highly compressed MPeg4. HDV is tape based and MPeg2 although you can buy external HDD drives. JVC has an MPeg2 hard disk format but is less supported with software.

So what you "want" is AVCHD because it saves tape dub time but are you prepared for the difficulty of editing that format and downsizing to SD DVD? Your computer won't handle it so budget in a new one.

HDV (tape) is easier to edit with today's computers and software but a 1GHz with 320MB RAM won't handle HDV either.

If your $1300 budget is fixed, you might be able to afford a Canon HV20 or HV30 HDV camcorder (highly rated) and a new budget computer (less monitor).
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-HV20-Camcorder-Review.htm

AVCHD models in that price range (e.g. HF-10) won't have HDD (except the older HG-10). They record only to expensive flash media. You will also need more computer to handle the format. Read the guides for AVCHD *.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Vixia-HF10-Camcorder-Review-34711/Format.htm
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/ratings.php

https://www.videohelp.com/guides?searchtext=AVCHD&tools=&madeby=&formatconversionselect...s=25&archive=0

* AVCHD is a bit advanced for today's software and hardware. Even a Core2 Quad will be sluggish. Understand the process before deciding on a format.

[Soopafresh]

Agreed with what edDV says. Mpeg2 will be easier on your PC. I have a Canon HV-30 which is mpeg2 based and I really like it.

We should make a sticky on this subject. I nominate ed!

[edDV]

I'm surprised how these camcorder prices have dropped in the past few months.

[spiluka]

Guys, thanks for the advice, I forgot to update my PC specs. I've done it now

got a 3GHZ core 2 duo + 4 gigs of ram and 400 gb hd running vista

Above mentioned, What would you go for?

[edDV]

Guys, thanks for the advice, I forgot to update my PC specs. I've done it now

got a 3GHZ core 2 duo + 4 gigs of ram and 400 gb hd running vista

Above mentioned, What would you go for?

Do you have editing software now? Here are my opinions.

Option 1: HDV with a program like Vegas Movie Studio Platinum or Full Vegas Pro. With that machine HDV would perform cues near DV speeds with similar workflow or for heavy effects work, you could use Cineform intermediate format. HDV has advantage for editing and picture quality.

Option 2: Sony AVCHD can be imported with Vegas Movie Studio Platinum or Full Vegas Pro but will be sluggish to cue since h.264 needs decode on the fly. Better to convert to Cineform digital intermediate format (Vegas Pro only) for full performance editing.

Word is Vegas only works well with Sony AVCHD camcorders. I don't know about Canon. AVCHD varies by manufacturer making compatibility unpredictable. You can read about others experiences with various combinations of camcorders and editing software. Most consumer editors first convert AVCHD to MPeg2 to allow easier editing. This recode lowers quality. Those interested in preserving quality will want to use Cineform or Apple digital intermediate formats. iMovie will down convert AVCHD or HDV to 960x540 for editing. On the Apple platform you will need Final Cut Pro to maintain full HD resolution.

Short summary, HDV works well with various editing software and has pro level support. AVCHD is still a bit of an adventure and really needs a few more years development and an 8 core up processor for equivalent performance.

[edDV]

If you just cut edit and have a BluRay HD player or PS3, it is possible to cut AVCHD without recode* and then burn to a DVDR or BR disc for direct playback. If this is what you want, research the procedure before buying anything.

* Cut on half sec. I frames or use software that reconstructs the GOP containing the cut.

[spiluka]

I'm getting more confused

[Soopafresh]

There's a lot to learn, but you'll figure it out.

I'd go for an HV-20 or an HV-30 and tripod and stabilizer for starters.

Here's some test footage of the HV30 - Nice shots, BUT the owner is hand-holding the camera. Notice the jerky movement.

http://www.vimeo.com/1210549

HV20 With a Stabilizer

http://www.vimeo.com/796197

Big difference

[edDV]

I'm getting more confused

You are getting the point then. HDV is relatively easy and works well with a Core2Duo PC.
http://www.hv20.com/

AVCHD is for simple playing to an HDTV unless you are ready to dig deep into the tech of editing and DVD/BR processing. Even then, you will need a very fast PC to get adequate performance.

[ermi]

It's a damn shame that in 2008 we have to work with tapes. I know they are cheap and easy to replace when one gets filled up. But still, tapes!!!

If I got it right there are no HDV camcorders with HDD or SSD storage. Why is beyond me. I guess marketing tactics, because at 25Mbps you could easily record to any cheap flash or HDD, avoiding the PITA of rewinding tape and saving power (especially with SSD) and having more space and connecting via USB and so on.

So my ideal HD camcorder would have a low power SSD drive with lots of space (200+GB) that could, in future, be easily replaced with standardized cheap SSD drives. (No proprietary custom BS formats)
Is there anything like this today? I know SSDs for PCs are still rather expensive, but they should become affordable in the not so distant future.


Soopafresh: Wow, I didn't know about stabilizers. It looks like they do an awesome job. Are there some cheap alternatives?

[edDV]

It would be easy for Canon to build an internal HDD HDV cam. I don't know why they don't. It makes no sense.

Sony is pushing HDV's big brother XDCAM-HD (to BluRay media) and XDCAM-EX (to flash media). It looks like they are forcing consumers to AVCHD. XDCAM is similar to HDV but with user selected bit rates up to 35Mb/s and down to around 16Mb/s. Maybe they intend to replace HDV with XDCAM-EX for prosumers.



Panasonic has AVC-Intra, DVCProHD and DV on flash but seems to want consumers on AVCHD.

The problem with AVCHD, it is a highly compressed distribution format and not optimal for decoding/editing. It was intended for one time hardware decoding in a display.

[zoobie]

you can spit your edited production back to tape (ntsc only)
cam hard drives fail
pros still use tape...why shouldn't you?

IMO, consumers just don't know any better...and have spoken loud and clear...they just want convenience...so the industry complies

[Soopafresh]

Soopafresh: Wow, I didn't know about stabilizers. It looks like they do an awesome job. Are there some cheap alternatives?

$150 is cheeeeeeeep for this thing. Most Steadicams go for between $800 and $4000

http://www.b-hague.co.uk/Camcorder%20Stabilizer%20HCS3.htm

[zoobie]

do a search here and you can make your own stedicam for $14 but nothing beats a quality tripod

[davideck]

The Canon HV30 is an incredible unit. Two things I noticed immediately were that it was always in focus and the optical image stabilization really works. Then I played it back over HDMI and couldn't believe the excellent HD picture quality. My only complaint is the audio quality. Can anyone recommend a good external microphone for capturing music recitals?

IMO, AVCHD has a long way to go before it's as universal as HDV. Not to mention that the HV30 can transfer HDV as standard DV over 1394. I find that quite handy sometimes.

[edDV]

BeachTek has you covered. You can use any Pro Mic or a balanced line feed from the house mixer.
http://www.beachtek.com/prod.html

[Soopafresh]

Yeah, it'll sound much better with a signal coming from the mixing board. If you want a mic that you can mount on your camera, check out http://www.vimeo.com/960332



And a good mic tutorial: http://www.vimeo.com/1080128

[spiluka]

God I wanted to get a HDD one so much, but I guess I will stick with HDV hv30?

[Soopafresh]

HV30s are really good, and don't fall for the "You need HDV tape" line at the store. Regular brand name DV tape works great and is 1/3rd the cost.

And, there's a huge community for that camera line : Http://www.hv20.com

[edDV]

Within a few years all camcorders will use flashram. Capacity keeps rising, bitrate is becoming adequate with single SD cards (P2 cards required parallel memory) and prices are dropping. This will allow formats superior to AVCHD such as XDCAM-EX and AVC-Intra to become practical for the Prosumer. Until then HDV is the best solution for picture quality and advanced editing in the $1000-$4000 price range. If the convenience of HDD or flash is the priority then AVCHD is an option.

[spiluka]

I got HF10, Now the dillema is how to transfer the files from cam to PC. I really would like to avoid using the software it came with...

[Soopafresh]

When you connect it to your PC, it should look like a hard drive. If you check the directory structure of the camera, you'll probably find .MTS pr .M2TS files there somewhere. Just copy them to you PC hard drive. I'm guessing that'll work with that camera.

[spiluka]

I installed all the software it came with, and windows recognizes device, but no additional drives appear in the My Computer and the software has disabled buttons where it says copy filed to PC...

Something must not be quite right

[edDV]

I installed all the software it came with, and windows recognizes device, but no additional drives appear in the My Computer and the software has disabled buttons where it says copy filed to PC...

Something must not be quite right

You need to use the software that came with it to stream the data to a file on the PC (usually over USB2). Then you try to play or edit the resulting file. Or, you access the flash card from a card reader. That will look like a hard drive same as a stills on a digital camera flash.

[spiluka]

I installed both software but the device must be unaccessible. the import buttons in software are disabled, and additional drives show up in My computer. If some additional drive appears, and I try to access it, my whole computer will freeze up untill I disconnect the USB cable.

WTF is with the camera manufacturers that they wont make it easy on you to transfer the damn file?

[Soopafresh]

Yeah, there will be growing pains to work out the bugs in the beginning. It took me several hours to figure out how to transfer the data from my HV30 to the hard drive on my PC.

[spiluka]

I dug on the canon website support section and found out that I need a HDMI cable which this camera does not come with, isn't that great? the give you camera, dont give you the cable and don't mention it in the fricking manual, they just say "Use the software"

[Soopafresh]

Yeah, the HV30 uses a Firewire cable which didn't come with the camera.

Are you sure it needs HDMI ? I don't think so - only if you're connecting it to your HDTV or if you're real-time capturing to a very fast drive. There's rarely an HDMI interface on a computer.