Do megapixles equal better video on a camcorder

[omnpotnt]

Here's a question...I'm considering buying the panasonic pv-gs200 becuase I have heard great things about it. However....it's very similar in specs to the gs-120. Both have 3ccd's 1/6", 800K . One shoots stills at 1.3 megapixels..the other at 2.3. I couldn't care less about the stills since I shoot with a canon 20d...but the question is...will it shoot better video, or will the video be essentially the same? I recently ditched my sony hc40 because the video sucked so bad, and don't want to have to go through this all over again. Damn me for ever selling my sony trv900!!! What was I thinking!! Oh well...any advice would be helpful!! Thanks !!

[lordsmurf]

Buy a video camera for the video quality, not the still image quality. If you need a still camera, buy a still camera.

Megapixels is marketing speak for digital cameras. While it is a measurement, too many people get a hard-on for it. Past about 2-3MP, you will not see much difference on prints unless you're going larger than 8x10. And if you're doing that size, best to shoot slide anyway, not digital. For comparison, many professional digital cameras shoot 2.75MP.

MP is not a video measurement.

[omnpotnt]

Thanks but you must have misunderstood my point. I couldn't care less about it's still picture quality, as I have a professional DSLR already.. my point was simply that the two camera's Techincal specifications were almost identical but for the difference in megapixel quality. Does that difference affect the video quality in anyway. ...that was simply my question. Thanks.

[doppletwo]

Um, Omni LordSurf exlpianed it reread his post please.

You need to worry about other things when buying camdorder. the Quailty of the optics

Some camaras are almost using window glass are lenses.

[junkmalle]

many professional digital cameras shoot 2.75MP.

Huh? All the professional digital SLR's that I know of are in the 6 to 16 megapixel range now.

<edit

Oh, you were probably talking about camcorders.

[lordsmurf]

Nikon D1 = 2.74
Nikon D2H = 4MP
Nikon D1X = 6MP
Nikon D1H = 2.74MP
Canon EOS D1 = 4-6MP (forget exact number)
Fuji S2 = 6MP

I've never heard of 16MP. That's ridiculous. Even the $15,000+ Kodak dSLR's are nowhere near that.

Video is not measured in MP, only still images.

[junkmalle]

I've never heard of 16MP. That's ridiculous. Even the $15,000+ Kodak dSLR's are nowhere near that.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_eos1dsmkii.asp

[lordsmurf]

Interesting. That's the highest of them all then. But low price of $8,000 and only 4fps, so you won't see too much use of these. Seems I've missed some of last years' additions. Still lots of pros with 3MP+ cameras.

[junkmalle]

Back to the original question though, over about 700 kpixels you won't get any increase in video quality.

[Jester700]

IIRC, most 35mm film "grain" gives a resolution roughly equivalent to 8MP, so the camera geeks are getting close. Of course, it still LOOKS different (like the film vs. digital video discussions here).

Single CCD cams can still benefit from greater res chips, since not every pixel is "activated" by every color due to the color mask used. A 3 chip cam doesn't have this disadvantage. So, resolution CAN be a benefit, but you can't compare cams that way - too many other things are more important - optics, CCD size, etc.

[Deekkeed]

Well the resolution drops when you switch on image stabilization, so more is theoretically better. But with 800k pixels or more you probably would not see a difference. It’s more of an issue when comparing 680k to 340K effective pixels. There are just not enough pixels at 340k to sacrifice any for image stabilization since 720x480= 345k you need it all just to get a decent picture. On the other hand you will get better low light performance from the lower resolution CCD then the higher one if both are the same size.

Deek

[edDV]

The GS-200 is the better camcorder due to the reasons stated in this review and the ones below.
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-pv-gs120-camcorder-review.htm
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-pv-gs200-camcorder-review.htm

likewise the GS-400 is better than the GS-200 and closer to the TRV-900.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/d/Reviews&level_b=Camcorder&level_c=Panasonic&level_d=MiniDV.htm

[vhelp]

I'm a little confused, because that article is stating that the
GS200 does not have a focus ring, when it actually does (and turns)
.


I like the GS200 because of the 3CCD and the color reproduction that
it brings. I truely is amazing. What I don't understand or know
(at this time) is weather or not it has any Progressive'ness built
into it. I'm currently researching this now.

FWIW.. the quality difference is almost night-n-day when you stack
it up Sony TRV22 vs. GS200's 3CCD - wow.. I've never seen blue be
blue and red be red before - from any cam. This cam sells for $699
so far, even though the article states +/- $830 dollars.

-vhelp 3067

[W_Eagle]

When money isn't so much the issue, while video quality and ability for manual controls matters, I'd co for a camcorder in the following order:
Canon XL1
Sony DCRVX2100
Canon XM2
Panasonic PVGS400
Panasonic PVGS200

Edit:
I'd take out of the list the Panasonic PVGS200 and put above the Panasonic PVGS400 the Panasonic AG-DVC30.

[crazythunder]

i'd wait for the pvgs 250 , 3ccd to come out. supposedly in march. that's what i'm saving up for. . has optical image stabilization instead of digital like the 200.

[W_Eagle]

How about video quality and manual controls of the PVGS250?

[vitualis]

As an aside...

Interesting. That's the highest of them all then. But low price of $8,000 and only 4fps, so you won't see too much use of these. Seems I've missed some of last years' additions. Still lots of pros with 3MP+ cameras.

Certainly the consumer and semi-pro DSLRs are generally 6 MP+ now.

I would think that this year, Nikon and Canon will update their top range DSLRs and they will almost certainly be 10 MP+, likely 15 MP+. Once DSLRs get up to 20 MP+ (without sacrificing speed and current image quality and sensitivity), they will start to bump off medium format film cameras.

Regards.

[zorankarapancev]

Pixel counts of the digital cameras are important but the size of the image sensor, color, tone and sharpening algorithms are far more important.

Most of the people don’t realize that the linear resolution of the image varies as the square of the total number of pixels. To get a visible doubling of a linear resolution of the image you have to QUADRUPLE the number of the megapixels!

Now you know why the photographers are reporting that they can hardly see any resolution improvement between 6MP and 8MP on professional digital cameras. On the other hand, the camera makers love to use the MP numbers game because it is the easiest way to make you spend more of your hard earned money for a negligible image quality improvement.

[vitualis]

Pixel counts of the digital cameras are important but the size of the image sensor, color, tone and sharpening algorithms are far more important.

I completely agree.

For good quality P&S, there is very little difference between a 4 MP and 8 MP model.

BTW, it sounds like you are quoting Ken Rockwell?

I wouldn't necessarily use him as an authority since he is somewhat biased but most of what you say is true. Higher MP cameras, however, do offer more flexibility for cropping and we can't perfectly frame every photo all the time...

Regards.

[edDV]

I'm a little confused, because that article is stating that the
GS200 does not have a focus ring, when it actually does (and turns)
...

I think the article says the GS120 lacks the focus ring. The GS200 came first, the GS120 is a stripped down version but still has 3CCD.

The GS200 is a fine consumer model. The GS400 bridges over to some nice prosumer features like manual audio levels* plus better white balance options.
The GS400 also has larger CCDs, 12x optical zoom and better low light performance. All in a consumer size camcorder.

* I'll never have another camcorder that lacks an off switch for AGC audio.


Edit: Here's a preview of the GS250
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-PV--GS250--Picture-Gallery.htm

[underwurlde]

Higher MPs = Better for 'orrible old digital zoom....

[thecoalman]

Higher MPs = Better for 'orrible old digital zoom....

Digital zoom is useless unless your clueless when it comes to image editing, use an editor to "digital zoom".

[zorankarapancev]

BTW, it sounds like you are quoting Ken Rockwell?

Whatever I said is from my 25 years of experience as an engineer involved in photo and video production. If that sounds familiar to you it is probably because I was talking about science and math and not about believes…and facts are facts anywhere in the world. :P

[vhelp]

I'm a little confused, because that article is stating that the
GS200 does not have a focus ring, when it actually does (and turns)
...

I think the article says the GS120 lacks the focus ring. The GS200 came first, the GS120 is a stripped down version but still has 3CCD.

The GS200 is a fine consumer model. The GS400 bridges over to some nice prosumer features like manual audio levels* plus better white balance options.
The GS400 also has larger CCDs, 12x optical zoom and better low light performance. All in a consumer size camcorder.

* I'll never have another camcorder that lacks an off switch for AGC audio.

Edit: Here's a preview of the GS250
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-PV--GS250--Picture-Gallery.htm

Here's something even more crazier, I think that the cam I did see
was miss-priced, and I think it was either the GS200 or higher
model (was selling for $699) ..Reason is because it doesn't look
like the GS200 I picked up and tested, the other day
The buttons were different. Then, when I picked up the GS120, it was
also different. Maybe it was the older *higher level* ( of the GS200 )
that they are phasing out, for the GS120/200/400 models of today.
I don't know. I'll have to see. But, I need to find the time to
do this. Anyways.
.
.. I just re-read your edit: post.. perhaps it was the GS250

I'm looking for a CAM that shoots (or has the option) to shoot
in Progressive mode. I'm not too picky (at the moment) for weather
its 30p or 24p (though 24p would be better) but right now, $1000
dollars would be my maximum for a cam w/ Progressive shooting features

Anyone read/heared/seen such cams ?

Thanks,
-vhelp 3072

[edDV]

You mean other than the Panasonic AG-DVX100A I suppose. Nice camcorder that.

[vhelp]

After reading the specs on the Panasonic AG-DVX100A
I came accross this;

* 16:9 letterbox, 16:9 digital squeeze

Does anyone know what this digital squeeze is ??

My basic assumption is, that is probably has something to do with converted or
simulated Aspect Ratio of:

* 1.778AR or 1.85AR or 2.35AR

The Letterbox one, sound more like a 4:3 (480) matted 60/60 with black bars
top and bottom, keepint it 4:3 ratio. And depending on your TV set, you'll
have either a widescreen, or boarder'd video. Anyways.

-vhelp 3073

[edDV]

After reading the specs on the Panasonic AG-DVX100A
I came accross this;

* 16:9 letterbox, 16:9 digital squeeze

Does anyone know what this digital squeeze is ??

My basic assumption is, that is probably has something to do with converted or
simulated Aspect Ratio of:

* 1.778AR or 1.85AR or 2.35AR

The Letterbox one, sound more like a 4:3 (480) matted 60/60 with black bars
top and bottom, keepint it 4:3 ratio. And depending on your TV set, you'll
have either a widescreen, or boarder'd video. Anyways.

-vhelp 3073

both are 720x480

letterbox flags an overall 4:3 aspect ratio and fits the 16:9 image into the frame with black bars above and below.

squeeze mode maps the native 16:9 CCD image to narrow pixels at 720x480 full height. The display device (DVD player, DTV, computer, etc.) sees the 16:9 flag and displays widescreen on a 16:9 monitor or with a choice of letterbox, edge crop or pan and scan on a 4:3 display.

The AG-DVX100A adds a third mode that adds an external lens to create the squeeze that better utilizes all the CCD pixels. This is closer to the way wide screen is shot in film. Quote from PDF
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&store...del=AG-DVX100A

"Use
the optional 16:9 conversion lens
(AG-LA7200G, sold separately) to
take full advantage of the higher
image quality made possible by
using all of the CCD pixels."

[vhelp]

@ edDV

That's great. I have the same three mode in cam I seldom use..
Panasonic GR-DVL820U (1.3MP) and 530 lines.., and it has:

* Cinema; Squeeze; and S.Wide

From what I know, it does the following (though I'm not sure)

* Cinema ... - letterbox (add's black matting/boarders 60/60 for 1.778AR)
* Squeeze .. - Seems to either crop I think, then it stretches Horizontally,
................... top/bottom a few pixles (don't know how many)
* S.Wide ... - Seems to do what Squeeze does, but adds in my left/right area
................... pixel info (don't know how many pixels it does either)

I'm wondering if all these AR's are 1.778 still.

I think its important to note this here in this topic, as it gives us
some more info/detail to factor in, when talking about MP's and things.
.
But, I'm not sure how much pixel info it either steals or crops or whatever
from the MegaPixel estate - - if it does at all. I would assume that
the Cinema mode is the only one that MP's are loosing some to this mode of
shooting. I'm not sure what the Percentage number is though.. 480-120=360
is ? percentage lost in pixels ? (I forget the calc formula for his) Anyways.

oh.., thanks for the pic demonstartion. It helps (a little)

-vhelp 3075

[edDV]

FYI

http://www.zgc.com/zgc.nsf/0/63b83c97fd349a1785256b82005afb3b?OpenDocument

Optical 16x9 extends V resolution a bit. It allows all the CCD vertical resolution but introduces some optical barrel distortion just like in the film world. I'm not yet decided if the increased vertical resolution advantage balances the optical distortion and cost.

Most prosumer camcorders will use standard optics and crop the CCD for 16x9 as shown above.

The pro cams are designed for 16x9 native.

Added: this link may help, read middle to end.
http://www.maxent.org/video/16x9.html

you can add the new HDV cams to that list