Panny E50 - Nice Surprise

[Capmaster]

My wife captured Starship Troopers off DSS and at the time she noticed horrendous macro blocks viewing it while it was recording. She dreaded reviewing it and suspected we would reject it. She had capped using FR mode.

This movie is second only to Event Horizon for flashing lights and difficulty capping without it looking like a checkerboard.

Last night we watched it and the blocks are gone. Apparently that "Hybrid VBR" and the block filter work as advertised. Very few, brief instances of blocks only on a couple of very intense scenes.

This machine continues to pleasantly surprise us

[Mechworker]

What is this VBR thing that you're talking about?

Is there something about this machine that I missed?

Fill me in!

[Capmaster]

VBR is variable bitrate. The Pannies have a recording mode called "FR" for flexible recording. You put in the recording time and it figures out and uses the right bitrate to fill out the rest of the disc (up to 4GB, that is, it won't write all the way to the edge). That way you're not stuck using a 3-hour bitrate for a 2:05 movie. This makes the best use of the disc and gives you the highest possible bitrate.

In setup there is an option called "Hybrid VBR" (in the video section) that you can set to fixed or automatic. Set to automatic the Panny will be free to change the resolution and the bitrate to fit stuff onto one disc. Set it to fixed and it will only adjust the bitrate. This is a better option if you plan to open up the recording with an editor to take out commercials, etc. Editors and authoring apps usually choke on clips that have had the resolution changed on the fly like that.

As far as your eye, you can't tell that the resolution has changed. The Panny will surprise you with the high level of quality.

[Mechworker]

I knew about the FR mode, I 've used it a lot.

It really has saved me a ton of disks. I record everything in LP, and when I've got an hour show and only 51 minutes left on the disk, it is a real godsend.

I've found that at LP, about 6 minutes per hour is the maximum stretch I can get before I have quality problems.

You're right, though, that I am always surprised by the quality of the unit's output!

Thanks!

[handyguy]

You can buy an E50 at Target for $224.00

[ejai]

Thanks Capmaster for that heads up.

It's funny that after these few years of creating vcds to dvds I forgot about the VBR functions, (its the little things). I never took the time to completely experiment with all the functions in my Panasonic E50.

After reading your post I decided to go home and change the VBR setting from automatic to fixed. It was like night and day, the video was cleaner and the fast moving area weren't pixelated. The only time I saw any signs of pixels was when I recorded over 2hrs with extremely fast motion, but still the pixels were hardly noticeable.

I have to admit that I was a bit sadden by the fact I had already recorded many videos using the automatic setting that would of came out much better if I had made that one little change.

My son owns a Panasonic E30 and I made the same adjustment on his machine as well.

When I use to capture video using my computer I always played with the VBR settings, but once I started using the standalone I forgot about those functions. Panasonic should have the VBR selection set to fixed, as a default setting.

Thanks again for mentioning that tweak, it made a major difference in my videos.

[Capmaster]

8)
I'm not surprised you didn't know about it. A lot of the nice features are buried in setup or in some menu. It definitely takes a while to get it tweaked

[ejai]

Your absolutely correct.

Most of us are extremely comfortable with the automated process that standalones provide. We take the unit for granted because the video we see in its automated state is still much better than most things we attempted to do on the pc using inferior equipment.

Now I think I will take a look under the hood and see what other goodies this unit has to offer. 8)

[Mechworker]

So the fixed setting is better?

I'm surprised at that.

However, if it is set to fixed, will it still allow you to use the FR mode?

[Synergy]

So the fixed setting is better?

I'm surprised at that.

However, if it is set to fixed, will it still allow you to use the FR mode?

You may have misunderstood the issue. Both settings provide the VBR recording and the FR mode is certainly permitted under both. But under the "Automatic" setting you may have different resoultions present in the same recording, say 704x480, and 352x480. I now suspect that some people's complaint of the PQ of the Panasonic models may be due to this double resolution display especially when the FR mode is used.

[ejai]

So the fixed setting is better?

I'm surprised at that.

However, if it is set to fixed, will it still allow you to use the FR mode?

You may have misunderstood the issue. Both settings provide the VBR recording and the FR mode is certainly permitted under both. But under the "Automatic" setting you may have different resoultions present in the same recording, say 704x480, and 352x480. I now suspect that some people's complaint of the PQ of the Panasonic models may be due to this double resolution display especially when the FR mode is used.

Yes you can use the FR mode.

I agree, but there is a noticable difference in the video quality. I did a test last night with a video that has some very fast motion scenes. The VBR setting was set to fixed and looked much better than the automatic mode. In terms of video block noise.

I think it might have something to do with VBR staying constant instead of adapting to the motion sceens being feed into the signal in othere words switching to a lesser bitrate than screen resolution. I'm not quite sure but there is a difference. Maybe someone might be able to explain what exactly is happening here.

[Synergy]

Looks like even when the SP or LP mode was selected, we may still get hybrid resolutions under the "Automatic" setting according to the following post:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=902874&highlight=#902874

When I capture in 2hr mode it switchs between 704x480 and 352x480 and when I capture in 4hr mode, it switchs between 352x480 and 352x240.

The implication seems to suggest that it's better (at least for editing on a computer) to have one single resolution than hybrid resolutions . Of course, YMMV.

I think it might have something to do with VBR staying constant instead of adapting to the motion sceens being feed into the signal in othere words switching to a lesser bitrate than screen resolution.

I don't think so. What's constant under the "Fixed" setting is the resolution, not bitrate. (see P46 from the manual) The rationale for using the "Automatic" default setting is that lower bitrate for high resolution generates more block noise, therefore by reducing the resolution to compensate for the lower bitrate used. But so far most people's experiences seem to contradict that assumption.

[Synergy]

In case anyone wants to know more on the subject, found the following discussion on "Hybrid VBR Resolution" at the AVS Forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=337811

Looks like setting it to "Fixed" is the consensus, also for DMR-E80H and E100H models with HDD, by setting "DVD-R Compatible Rec" to "On" would effectively set "Hybrid VBR Resolution" to "Fixed".

[Capmaster]

When it comes to macro blocks I've found that when set to automatic it really takes an effort to get it to show blocks. When I'm not planning to edit the video later I usually leave it set to automatic. The concensus in the house is that it looks fine, and it if ain't broke, don't fix it.

[ejai]

After further testing I find that the VBR fixed setting works great as long the movie isn't over 2hrs. If you are recording a movie that is over 2hrs. then automatic is the way to go.

I was wondering at what point in terms of minutes does the E50 or other Panasonic recorders switch to a lower resolution? My findings is somewhere after 2 hours.

[Erwin]

I was wondering at what point in terms of minutes does the E50 or other Panasonic recorders switch to a lower resolution? My findings is somewhere after 2 hours.

I think it's when it goes past 2hrs and 10 minutes, atleast in my experience. I am glad that I started using the Fixed setting only after a couple of discs when I purchased my E30 last year. The fixed setting will also make the DVD more compatible with other dvd players. My dad's Phillips is one very picky dvd player and it won't play any of the DVDs that I created with the "automatic setting".