Mpegator vs MG100 vs PV231 ???

[Anonymous65]

I have the PV231, and from ALL the video capture devices I have tried and used, it is the best VCD capture method I can get, both in real-time AND the slow software method.

I can get hold of the "old" Mpegator from Darim for a good price, but since it uses old technology (many slow chips) instead of the special VCD chip W99200F which is in the PV231, can the Mpegator outperform the "cheap" PV231 in VCD quality captures? Has anybody tried both cards? Also, Darim has come out with a new Mpeg-1 card, the MG100, which actually use the W99200F chip. How does it perform? Both cards are expensive, but since the Mpegator is "on the way out" I can get it for a good price.

I would like to get feedback on these real-time VCD capture cards.

Thanks.

[norm]

Your right the products that use the W99200 chip do a very good job. I think from memory the MG100 has an Mpeg audio encoder on board so that should stop the A/V sync problems that the PV231 and similar products can sometimes suffer from. ( although that really depends on the machine )
I would guess as time goes by the MG100 will come down in price and that might be a time to grab one.
You might consider waiting untill next year as the streammachine SM2288 chip will be in products and it does hardware audio encoding so you can then choose VCD SVCD or DVD. And it will be cheaper than the MG100.

[Anonymous65]

Thanks for your reply!

My PV231 does capture audio on the card. Now, it might be that the encoding is done in software, but I know the two are directly linked because if there is a drop-out in the video, the audio skips to keep up with the video so to maintain perfect sync no matter how bad the video is. Since I use a TBC, the video is always clean without any dropped frames and instability, so the audio is also perfect.

About the Stream Machine chip, it's a mpeg-1/2 chip. I hope they don't skimp out on the mpeg-1 encoding since "everybody" use mpeg-2 and mpeg-1 is not so important. The Winbond chip is a dedicated mpeg-1 chip only, so full attention is put on the mpeg-1 performane. I don't have the specs on the Winbond chip, but it does do an interpolation of BOTH fields to get the 240 line resolution, increasing the sharpness and detail. I don't know if it captures 704 horizontally and do a 2:1 reduction, but that would increase detail even more. The "perfect" VCD encoder would capture 704x480 and encode it directly down to 352x240 mpeg-1 VCD stream. I would like to know if the Stream Machine chip does it?

Oh, another word about the MG100, what's extra nice about it is that is does capture audio at 48Khz, so you can capture DVD compliant 352x240 mpeg-1 video directly without any conversion to DVD. The PV231 has a greyed-out sampling frequency window, and is fixed at 44.1KHz.

And lastly, there is a new USB box that does DVD, SVCD, and VCD hardware capture for $199 (you can find it many places now, often called Instant DVD). What chip does it use, and how is the VCD capture quality?

Craving for more information...

[norm]

Your assumption is correct, The PV231 does encode the audio in software like most other mpeg encoder cards.
The winbond and streammachine encoders accept the CCIR656 standard of 720 x 480 ntsc 720 x 576 pal ( actually 704 x xxx) then spacially decimate down to one quarter the size to 352 x 240 ntsc 352 x 288 pal before applying the mpeg algorithm.
You could check the registry entries and see if there is a 48Khz setting. There is no reason why it couldn't encode the audio at 48khz as it's just a software encoder but maybe there are some timing issues.
The current Streammachine product SM2210 used in the PV256 does an excellent job in VCD compared to my PV233. There is a slight difference but this is because of the amount of prefiltering done before the encoder. The PV233 does look cleaner but I imagine there is just more prefiltering.
I havn't seen the USB encoder you mention but I don't think you will want one. There is a delay after hitting the record button as the video and audio are delayed by a few seconds to give buffer time. Not unlike the onscreen preview on the PV231. I've have tested the PV356 USB box and I would rather a PCI card.
I am surprised Darim left it so late to release the MG100 as just about all other products do Mpeg2 as well. And also it's difficult to justify the price they are asking.

[Anonymous65]

Thanks for the info, Norm.
Yes, the MG100 should be priced at $150. The "old" Mpegator is now selling for $199, and the MG100 card is very simple with a few chips on it. Since I only care about mpeg-1, the MG100 would be fine for me. I really like the simple and plain interface that the Mpegator and MG100 use. The Trueblue PV231 comes with a UGLY interface, and no controls for IPB settings (other than editing the registry). The Grand VCD 2000 has a much nicer looking interface, but is missing controls over IPB settings, and other settings like "scene change detection on/off, "telecine pulldown", and several other options available in the registry. Here the Darim products are wonderful, with menus for every setting under the sun.
If you have the PV233, you most likely have noticed the default registry settings makes poor video during action (a lot of blocks), but by changing the IPB settings and a few other things, you get much less blocks during action. I find it strange that they don't use these better settings as default?

[norm]

The registry settings were a great idea by winbond it's a shame other manufacturers don't do that. I guess some of them don't like people playing around.
I wonder how long it will take for the Mg100 to come down in price. I havn't checked the price out for ages, but surely it won't be long. I would expect most of darims customers would be buying their other products.
Time will tell.

[Anonymous65]

I almost fell off my chair when I was emailed a copy of all the registry and INI settings for the Winbond chip. If any body has the PV231 or PV233, and you would like a copy, email me.

[markm]

Any idea where you can pick up a 231/233 in the US? I've been searching around but haven't found a place yet. Someone posted a clip done with it and I was quite impressed.

Anyone got a good sampled from the MG100? I thought they ran more than $150. That might be worth looking into as well.

[Anonymous65]

You can order the PV231 here: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/akidacomputer/mpegencar.html

The MG100 is not listed at any US resellers, but is priced around $500 from Singapore or Taiwan. Way overpriced since this card is almost the same as the PV231 at $85.

[Anonymous65]

Oh, if you want the PV233, same as PV231 but it has a TV tuner on the card, you can get it here for $115: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/akidacomputer/encar.html

[Anonymous65]

I'll post a list of registry changes that will make the card perform much better then the default settings (I just need a day or two check some things out).

[markm]

Thanks for the link. I'm seriously considering the TV tuner model. I downloaded the demo clip from your site skittelsen and was pretty impressed with the quality.

I've mostly been converting some VHS to VCD for the kids. They watch them so often it's more reliable, and they're not quality freaks I've also been using my WinTV GO to capture shows that I encode with TMPGenc. It's just so time consuming.

Couple of Q's if you guys don't mind...

Do you HAVE to use thier software? Can you use something like AVI_IO? I've got a nice script I use with a scheduler to kick off unattended recordings now. I'd hate to lose that ability. OR, is there a way to kick off thier app to auto-record somehow so I can still do scheduled recordings? I downloaded and installed the app from Provideo, but it won't run without the card

skittelsen, how "cleaned up" was that video sample. I noticed you do this as a business, and use TBC's and whatnot. I'm curiuous what the quality of the average quality VHS->PV233 would be like with no TBC or other assists.

Last Q (for now /grin), I don't suppose thier software allows you to encode AVI files? I've seen very few that do (the MG100 does, no?). That would definately peak my interest.

Thanks a TON for the info guys. I've been looking for something like this since I started getting into this hobby a few months ago. It's now starting to be more work than it's worth, but a low cost card to take the time out would make it fun again. This seems like it could be it, but also seems to good to be true

[Anonymous65]

I'll try to answer them all

Yes, you have to use the capture application that comes with the card (or other capture apps from other vendors using the same card). The card CANNOT capture AVI, only mpeg-1 compressed video.

At this point there is not a scheduler for timer records. I have been thinking of using another program to launch and click the record button, but have not tried it yet.

The video clip on my web site was a recording from a DVD. It shows the maximum quality the card can do. A good S-VHS tape will look close to the DVD. I did not use any "cleanup" or TBC when recording from a DVD. The TBC will help if the video is from VHS and there are drop-outs in the video, or other instabilities. If the video tape is in good quality, you will not see any difference without a TBC.

And no, you cannot (with current software) encode an AVI file using the card. Only the video input, composite, S-Video (and tuner) can be the source. The PV231(233) is exclusively for making VCD's from analog video tape or aTV tuner. It should also be able to make DVD compliant mpeg-1 files where you might have to convert the audio from 44.1 to 48 Khz. There are settings for this in the INI file, but I have not gotten it to work yet.

[markm]

The wife's gonna shoot me, but I think I'm going to order one while I can.

Wonder what the quality would be like if you pumped out an AVI from a RealMagic and captured with this over S-video compared to encoding with TMPGenc?

[Anonymous65]

Here are my registry keys for best NTSC VCD capture:

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\MPEG-I\WMPEG200\CaptureConfig]
"MPJ_AUDIO_COMPENSATION_VALUE"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_AUDIO_COPYRIGHTED_MATERIAL"=dword:fffffff e
"MPJ_AUDIO_EMPHASIS"=dword:fffffffe
"MPJ_AUDIO_ENCODING_BIT_RATE"=dword:fffffffe
"MPJ_AUDIO_EXTERNAL_SOURCE"=dword:fffffffe
"MPJ_AUDIO_LOSS_COMPENSATION"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_AUDIO_MODE"=dword:fffffffe
"MPJ_AUDIO_ORIGINAL_COPY"=dword:fffffffe
"MPJ_AUDIO_STEREO"=dword:fffffffe
"MPJ_AUDIO_VIDEO_SYNC"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_CAPTURE_TYPE"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_COMPRESS_METHOD"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_FRAME_DISTANCE"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_LOGO_ENABLE"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_B_START"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_BIT_RATE"=dword:00118c30
"MPJ_MPEG_CLOSED_GOP"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_DUPLICATE_B"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_GOP_HEAD_FREQ"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_MPEG_HALF_PEL"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_MPEG_INTRA_DISTANCE"=dword:0000000a
"MPJ_MPEG_NUMBER_OF_B"=dword:00000002
"MPJ_MPEG_RC_METHOD"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_MPEG_SCENE_CHANGE"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_MPEG_SEQUENCE_HEAD_FREQ"=dword:00000003
"MPJ_MPEG_SLICE_HEAD_FREQ"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_MPEG_TC_FRAME_NUMBER"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_TC_HOUR"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_TC_MINUTES"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_TC_SECONDS"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_TELECINE"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_TIME_STAMP"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_MPEG_VBV_INITIAL_FULLNES"=dword:00000026
"MPJ_MPEG_VBV_SIZE"=dword:00000028
"MPJ_PICTURE_RESOLUTION"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_QUALITY"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_VIDEO_IN_BLANK"=dword:00000000
"MPJ_VIDEO_STANDARD"=dword:00000000

The only option you might turn on is the blanking of the bottom lines of the video to cover the VCR head switching. If you want to turn this ON, then change the key to "MPJ_VIDEO_IN_BLANK"=dword:00000001"

[ylong]

Hi skittelsen:
I am shopping for a good TV capture card for VCD and tried ATI TVWonder and Hauppage WinTV. None satisfied me. Now you recommended PV231. Could you help me out of those questions:
1. Will the card need a fast machine? How much MHz you are using?
2. What is TBC? Do I need it for good MPEG1 quality?
3. Will my Micron Millennia P2 450MHz be compatable? I know that my video card is RIVA 128 but I don't know if its AGP card or not. Also the sound card is ESS and I believe its integrated instead of PCI card.
Thank you in advance.

[Anonymous65]

1> Since the card does most of the video compression, a powerful machine is not needed. Only the audio and muxing of the streams are done in software. A 300 MHz CPU should work fine. I don't have the specs in front of me, but they should be listed on the web site (any PV231 web site).

2> TBC, Time Base Corrector, is a device that removes the wow and flutter in the video. If the video tape is in good condition, a TBC will not really have any effect on the captured video. If you have a bad video tape with tracking problems, dropouts, multi-generation copy and so on, a TBC will insert new sync signals. Without a TBC, most capture cards will not even function on these bad tapes. But, for good quality video, you will not see any difference.

3> Your PC should work. For display during capture you can choose between Overlay or Preview mode. The audio is captured by the card as well, not by your sound card. Anyway, You might check out the web site selling the card and look for System requirements.

http://www.mediaforte.com.sg/products/video/v64_zap/index.htm
http://www.provideo.com.tw/PV231.htm
http://www.grandtec.com.tw/EN/mpeg/2000p/vcd2000p.html
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/akidacomputer/mpegencar.html

[ylong]

Thank for the info. But which one is the best among those three (PV231, TrueBlueAction, and GRAND VCD 2000)? Also, Could you run PV231 on Win2K box or only Win98?

I really want to buy one to capture satellite TV shows. But with the WinTV experience, I am a little bit scared.

[Anonymous65]

They are all the same card. Only the unit from Provideo is available in the US. You can download the software from any site and use it with any of the PV231 cards, they are all compatible. The Grand has the best looking capture program. If you check the driver download, you will find a Win2K driver at most if not all the web sites. Personally, I use WinMe.

[ylong]

Thanks skittelsen.
You almost convinced me. Just a last question: After a long time continuous runing (say 2 hours), is there any down quality? When I use ATI, after about 9 minutes, recorded mpeg has a lot of hiss noise. Or does this card give you high quality audio also?
BTW, is there any recording schedule utility. It's painful to keep track with satellite TV programs.
Really appreciate your help.

[PAPACHIK]

Hi Skittelsen.
Are you forgeting us,the PAL users. Is your registry keys only good for NTSC.

BTW, how about extend your guide on 'how to' change the registry keys as quite a number of us are not PC expert(include me).

I owned this PV231 card (TruBlue version)for almost a year.
Converted PAL VHS to MPEG(VCD) and the quality were so so..
until last weekend I installed another hard disk and defrag,
and surprisingly,the VCD quality was excellent.. almost as good as the source VHS with less blocks.

One more thing I like to mention is that at times my video was not captured smoothly even after adding a video cap drive.It's sometimes dropping frames and at time I got a video pause. Hopefully this registry keys can improve capture.

papachik

[Anonymous65]

I have never heard that you get hiss in the audio after you capture for some time. This sounds like a sound card problem. I record 4 hour chunks from CMT with the PV231, and the audio is excellent all the time.

As for registry updates or changes, simply use regedit (click start, run, type regedit and click OK). HOWEVER, the registry is the heart of Windows, and if you mess it up, you're out of luck! Otherwise, the registry editor looks just like the Windows file browser. Browse to this key (folder): [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\MPEG-I\WMPEG200\CaptureConfig] Under this folder you will find all the keys for the card. Right click on a key, and change the value. If I could post a file, it's very easy to update the registry. Registry updates have the extension .reg If you email me, I can send you a registry update with the listed changes. Simply double-click on the .reg file and say YES to update the registry. It will then make all the changes for you.

The reg edits should also work fine for PAL video.

Also, if you want to capture I-frame only mpeg-1 video, then change these keys:
"MPJ_MPEG_INTRA_DISTANCE"=dword:00000001
"MPJ_MPEG_NUMBER_OF_B"=dword:00000000

Select a bit rate of 5 or 6 Mb/sec, and capture "mjpeg like" video where you can cut and edit on any frame. Each frame is individually compressed.

If there is a wish to post several registry "auto-install" files for different functions, I can post them on my web page.

[ylong]

Thanks for the info.
I would like to see the registry settings in some detail 'cause I am convinced that PV231 will be the best choice. But do you hear any scheduling utilities?

[markm]

The PV-233 appears to have a scheduler. I've downloaded various versions of the application from different sites and the help files indicate scheduling. The 233 is the same as the 231 with an added TV tuner. Mine's not due in until Friday, so I can't tell you how well the scheduler works, if at all.

[ylong]

I would be very appreciated if you can give us more info when you get it. I am planning to buy one. But from the picture they give, PV233 can not accept just TV cable as video input. You still have to use separate video-audio inputs.
Wait for your comments.

[Anonymous65]

The PV-233 has a TV tuner on the card, in addition to the regular composite and S-video inputs. So, you have three choices of inputs, the tuner, composite video, and S-Video.

[CoCoNiPs]

WoW!
PV233 (MPEG-1 Encoder/Tuner card)
Hardware mpeg 1 is what ive been looking for ok i lie its what ive been dreaming about! Im sure im not the only one
But I am in the UK can I buy these cards over here
if not if i had one shipped from the us would it work with the UK pal tv standard?
Thanx Ahead
CoCo

[Anonymous65]

Mediaforte had an office in the Nederlands, but that office is now closed. Go to http://www.mediforte.com.sg (or .tw) and send an email to the sales department. They should be able to help you out.

The cards can do PAL, SECAM, and NTSC on the composite/S-video input. PAL via the tuner is no problem. (to get SECAM, you need to download the latest driver/app software. SECAM is mostly used in France and Russia)

[markm]

I got my PV-233 yesterday. Haven't had too much time to play with it, but my initial impression is that it was money well spent.

Installation was simple. Surprisingly, the drivers on the CD were the latest, that's a switch.

From what I've seen so far doing some simple captures from composite as well as the TV tuner, quality is at least, if not better, than what I was able to achieve capturing to Huffy/AVI and encoding with TMPGenc. So I'm getting the same quality I had with FAR less time spent.

The software isn't the greatest, but it works. The tuner model does include a scheduler. The software for the tuner model installs a "remote panel" application that runs at startup and sits in the tray. This panel is used to bring up the display window, and is also responsible for firing off the recordings from the schedule. Scheduling allows you to choose the source, channel, time and duration. Unfortunately, it does not allow you to specify things like bitrates.

I was able to setup and record 2 back to back (I left a 2 minute gap in the schedule for startup/shutdown time) shows last night, 90 mins each. I could never do that with Huffy/AVI, just not enough disk space, and chained recordings always seemed to crash.

I wish I could adjust the bitrate in the scheduler, since I like to max out the bitrate to fill an 80min CD for the show I'm recording. You have to change the default bitrate, which will be used. But if you're not available to do that between shows that need different bitrates, you'll probably have to compromise.

The 2 90 minute shows I did didn't seem to exhibit any audio sync problems, but I haven't had time to scutinize them yet. I kicked off a recording of a VHS tape for my daughter this morning, and had it displaying full screen on the PC while capturing, and it looked to be out of sync, so I need to investigate that. It might be fine on playback.

I do like the fact that the preview appears to be the encoded video, and not the source, at least while recording.

The only complaint I have so far is the lack of any technical details about the software. ie; I don't believe it says anywhere that the preview is in fact the output video. The constant quality option was ghosted. I had to make a change in the ini file to enable it. The one test I did implies that the feature might be broken, because there were errors in the encoded video. Either that, or I misinterpreted the value in the quality slider and set it to really bad quality instead of good. Again, lack of info in the manual. The manual is an idiots guide to using the card. I'm still trying to figure out how to determine if the tuner supports stereo or not

[Anonymous65]

When recording, the audio and video is always out of sync, but is fine when playing it back. It's because as you noted, the preview is actual encoded video.