Help me decide on a ATI card

[Rayan]

I would like to get an ATI AIW card as it seems the lowest cost option for graphics card plus video capture. But I have been breaking my head over deciding which one. My requiremets are,

-I would like to have DVI capability(Flat pannels are the things in the future & I have read that usig VGA to DVI adapter is not good)
-Not sure if I really need dual monitor support cause I want to do video editing as a hobby rather than profession
-not much interest in capturing TV or FM
-Not a gamer
-I like AIW 9600 price(about $200) except it supports only VGA.

How important is it to have 128MB memory vs 64MB?

I have not seen a 9000 with 128MB although ATI website says available.

I would really appreciate some different viewpoints on what I need.

Thanks

Rayan

[BrainStorm69]

If you aren't a gamer, 64 vs. 128 mb means nothing. If you want DVI and something even cheaper than the 9600, you could get what I have -- a new (but older model) 7500 AIW AGP. Got mine at Fry's here in Dallas for $80. It has DVI and you use an adapter if you have an analog monitor (which I do, but it seems to work fine).

[dxj40c]

I to have the ATI AiW Radeon 7500. I have always used ATI video cards and I like them, however, ATI can't seem to settle on the video drivers, MMC, and capture drivers. It seems everytime I go to their site there are new drivers, they can't seem to get it right the first time. I was unhappy with the capture I was getting, it wasn't as sharp as I thought it should be, I was dropping a lot of frames, and there was this green bar at the bottom of all the captures above 352x240. It wasn't in the viewable part of the video but it bothered me.
I finally bought the Pinnacle Studio 9 AV/DV package that came with a Pinnacle capture card. With the same computer settings, the pinnacle captured good sharp video with no dropped frames. I will still use the ATI video cards as I have since 1996, but for capture I prefer the Pinnacle device.
I think they try to make the All-In-Wonder do to much and since they can't settle on a driver package seems to confirm there are problems.
Even the video that is supposedly 'Ntsc DVD Compliant Mpeg 2', gets the message from my authoring program (DVD Architect) that it is non-compliant video and has to be reencoded.
The stuff I capture with the Pinnacle is 'ready to go', and the software (Pinnacle Studio 9) is pretty good too but doesn't let you do anything fancy.

[indolikaa]

ATI AIW 9000 Pro.

If you're not playing sophisticated graphics-based games, you probably won't need more than 64MB of video memory.

[andkiich]

I can't say enough good things about my ATI AIW 7500.

[subclubkid]

I have a 9200 ATI with VIVO, and it works great. Its got a 128 MB RAM, but it only costs about $70. Goto Newegg.com and look under the gigabyte video cards...


The captures are really nice, and easy to do.

[teegee420]

I absolutely love my All-In-Wonder 7500. Best bang for your buck in my opinion.

[Rayan]

Thanks for your comments. Sounds like 64MB is OK. Here is follow up:

Brainstorm69, I would have been Ok with AIW 9600 price except it does not have DVI. Also I am surprised you saying 7500 has DVI. ATI website says it comes with VGA!

All, Does AGP 4X vs 8X make difference as a graphics card and for video capture, editing etc? 9000 AIW has only 4X. 7500 datasheet does not mention anything about AGP at all.

Does HW assist MPEG encoding make quality or speed difference? e.g., like what dxj40c is saying. The 7500 and 9000 do not have this feature.

Finally, I have read a lot about how slow the encoding speed is. Does anyone understand what determines this? Why all ATI cards are spec'ed the same e.g. AIW 7500, 9000 and 9700 are all spec'ed 30frames/sec @720x480 resolution?

Thanks again

[indolikaa]

All, Does AGP 4X vs 8X make difference as a graphics card and for video capture, editing etc? 9000 AIW has only 4X. 7500 datasheet does not mention anything about AGP at all.

I can't answer that one. I can tell you my system runs an AGP 4X bus and all my graphics run just fine. I think 8X would be targeted at the gamer market and the high-end photo/video market. (BJ_M comes to mind as a user who might need 8X AGP)

Does HW assist MPEG encoding make quality or speed difference? e.g., like what dxj40c is saying. The 7500 and 9000 do not have this feature.

Yes, they do. All-In-Wonder cards use a hybrid hardware/software encoding scheme; the Theatre chipset is what the ATI uses to capture the video, with software programming provided by ATI MMC. However, because of the way the ATI AIW cards are designed, they can....

Finally, I have read a lot about how slow the encoding speed is. Does anyone understand what determines this? Why all ATI cards are spec'ed the same e.g. AIW 7500, 9000 and 9700 are all spec'ed 30frames/sec @720x480 resolution?

...capture full D1 video (720x480 @ '30' fps) in realtime, without additional post-capture processing or compression. In other words, since the A/V stream is captured and encoded on the fly, the notion of 'how slow the encoding speed is' does not apply here.

When you speak of slow encoding speed, I believe the can more correctly identify the AVI -> MPEG method used by the DV -> TMPGEnc/MainConcept/Etc. process. The ATI encodes in realtime.

Example:
I record Whose Line Is It Anyway every night on ABC Family (or whatever they're called) on DTV channel 311. It takes about 30 minutes to record the episode, 5 minutes to remove the commericals with MPEG2-VCR, 5 minutes to author with DVD-lab and 5 minutes to burn with DVD-lab or B's.

So I spend an extra 15 minutes per episode doing post-capture work. But none of that work is encoding; that was done during the first 30 minutes when the program was actually running.

[Sam Ontario]

I would like to get an ATI AIW card as it seems the lowest cost option for graphics card plus video capture. But I have been breaking my head over deciding which one. My requiremets are,

-I would like to have DVI capability(Flat pannels are the things in the future & I have read that usig VGA to DVI adapter is not good)
-Not sure if I really need dual monitor support cause I want to do video editing as a hobby rather than profession
-not much interest in capturing TV or FM
-Not a gamer
-I like AIW 9600 price(about $200) except it supports only VGA.

How important is it to have 128MB memory vs 64MB?

I have not seen a 9000 with 128MB although ATI website says available.

I would really appreciate some different viewpoints on what I need.

Thanks

Rayan

Get a DVD Recorder and don't waste your time on any capture cards, including ATI AIWs.

[teegee420]

If you're a complete noob who doesn't want to take the time to learn the intricacies of capturing, encoding and authoring that will ultimately produce a superior DVD then yes, a DVD recorder is the way to go.

That aside, my 7500 has AGP 8x capability as well as DVI.

[BrainStorm69]

Thanks for your comments. Sounds like 64MB is OK. Here is follow up:

Brainstorm69, I would have been Ok with AIW 9600 price except it does not have DVI. Also I am surprised you saying 7500 has DVI. ATI website says it comes with VGA!

Rayan, I believe ATI has put out various versions of the 7500, so you have to be careful. The one I have is pictured in this review:

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020122/

[J3M]

I have the AIW 9600 Pro card and really have no complaints. I get very good TV caps, very good VHS or other analog caps. As for compliant video, I've never had an issue. I have, however, had problems with the audio. By default the MMC software encodes the audio in mp2 format, which I've had issues with in my standalone. There is an option to record audio in LPCM and once set to this, I've not had any other issues with my audio.

All-in-all, and very nice card.

[Sam Ontario]

That aside, my 7500 has AGP 8x capability as well as DVI.

Is there really an AGP 8x for 7500 AIW?

[teegee420]

I double checked my documentation and I was obviously mistaken. It's only 4x max. Sorry for the confusion.

[marshalljames]

Even the video that is supposedly 'Ntsc DVD Compliant Mpeg 2', gets the message from my authoring program (DVD Architect) that it is non-compliant video and has to be reencoded.

Then change your program.TmpegAuthor loves everthing I throw at it.mpeg1(from my oldAIW 128 rage BT829 capture MMC 6.0)to mpeg2(AIW 7500 Rage Theatre capture MMC 8.1).

Be careful of making generalized negative comments about the ati.From my 6 yrs experience capturing with ati,the fleshware is usually the problem. It can't de-code the specific issue that is unique to it's set-up.
Believe me I could have thrown my computer across the room in frustration many a time in the early yrs.(yes yrs) green lines,dropped frames,catured video that when re-encoded quits at 70%,Kernel dll32 failures Sound blaster live problems etc.....If your not puter savy or capable of becoming savy don't buy the ati.Oh did I mention that when it works it works and produced beautiful captured video.....

[indolikaa]

Get a DVD Recorder and don't waste your time on any capture cards, including ATI AIWs.

* what kind of source are you working with,
* what do you want to do with the video once it's been captured,
* do you need cross-file editing capability,
* do you specifically need +R or -R compatibility,
* do you need multi-format/multi-resolution capability,
* do you need VCD or SVCD capability.

If you answered 'yes' to any of the last four questions, you'd better be damned careful taking that advice.

My advice stands: the ATI AIW Pro 9000.

[SHS]

Rayan if you have no interest in capturing TV or FM then why not just pick any low cost TV card and Low cost DVI Video card.
But if are you trying building a PVR then SageTV or BeyondTV and WinTV-PVR 250 with REAL Hardware Encoder is best way go to.
AGP 8x vs 4x will not do much good unless you are play games.

This my setup but use like a VCR
Windows 2000 all latest update
SageTV (Runing Multi-PVR 250 S/Video Source)
Ulead DVD MovieFactory 2 SE
DVD Shrink 3.1
2 Dishnetwork DP301 Receiver
Intel P4 1600a 478
Intel D845WN Motherboard
2, Micron 256meg SDRAM 168pin DIMM (PC133)
Creative Lab's SoundBlaster Audigy X-Gamer (Model SB0090) with Optical Digital I/O 2 card
Edimax EN-9130TX NIC (Realtek RTL8139)
Sony DRU-500AX DVD-+R/-+RW CDR/RW
Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 80gig 7200 IDE
Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 160gig 7200 IDE
Sigma Designs REALmagic Xcard
Microsoft WheelMouse Optical USB
Microsoft Natural MultiMedia Keyboard
Actisys ACT IR-200L
Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 250 Model 980
Hauppauge WinTV-PVR 250MCE Model 980
KDS VS190is
PNY Geforce 2 MX440
Creative Inspire 5.1 5300

Still need get a USB-UIRT and Twin IR Emitters so I can dump the Actisys ACT IR-200L so I can have better control over the 2nd Dish Receiver for channel change.

[lordsmurf]

AGP vs PCI has zero effect on capturing.
It effects graphics.
It may affect OVERALL performance, but captures fine.

A DVD recorder is nice, own one myself, but nowhere near a replacement for a good video card like the ATI.

People talk about Hauppauge a lot, and they are nice cards, but quality and MPEG compliancy can be a problem. The only ATI error is installation can be painful, but once past that, expect smooth sailing.

[donpedro]

The stuff I capture with the Pinnacle is 'ready to go', and the software (Pinnacle Studio 9) is pretty good too but doesn't let you do anything fancy.

What do you mean. I think it allows you to do a lot.

[SHS]

I and min other had no MPEG compliancy problem lordsmurf and far I know only a few DVD Authoring Software don't work like NeroVision Express is just one them.
There alway the ATI E-Home Wonder if die hard ATI fan which also come with Conexant CX23416 just like the WinTV-PVR 250 dose but it only work under SageTV and MCE but you can't change any Video quality setting due to poor ATI DirectShow support under Sage there are other Conexant CX23415/16 Clone.
A lot BeyondTV user replacement there ATI AIW for WinTV-PVR 250
You can read it your self rigth here
http://discuss2.snapstream.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13341

[lordsmurf]

The ATI Wonder cards are cheap junk. Only reason to buy ATI is the Theatre chipset.

[indolikaa]

A lot BeyondTV user replacement there ATI AIW for WinTV-PVR 250
You can read it your self rigth here

And I'm sure I can find proof that there are an equal number of WinTV users who migrated to ATI AIW for the 'same' reasons. You are talking to one of them right now.

The card ran fine for me. I just wasn't happy with the quality when compared head-to-head with an ATI AIW. I don't have three computers sitting on my desk just to look pretty. All three are directly or indirectly involved in PVR'ing material from either DirecTV or DiSH Network. And they do it with ATI AIW cards.

My machines don't just keep me up-to-date on all my favorite TV shows, they make money for me also. And when I'm putting my name on something it better damned well work perfectly. The ATI does that.

Having said that, I don't see anywhere where he said he was going to PVR. Why did this even get brought up?

[SHS]

I sure there are a lot of WinTV users who migrated to ATI AIW but there is a major diff from WinTV vs WinTV-PVR 250/350 and yes I know there at lease 17 people that end up going from WinTV-PVR 250/350 back to there ATI AIW and not becuase of quality but for other reson mostly due to from incompatible with there system or some eles.
He did say he wasn't interest in capturing TV or FM but I give him a 2nd option to record watch later then del.
Why you want three computers when can do with one computer I know few people that are runing "4" WinTV-PVR 250 or WinTV-PVR USB2 or more tuner on one computer.
Ok then how come there not one word on this forum or for that matter any of the other TV forums where you talk about PVR 250 vs ATI head-to-head compared? unless you using a diff name.

[Amontillado]

The ATI Wonder cards are cheap junk. Only reason to buy ATI is the Theatre chipset.

The Ati E-Home Wonder SHS is refering to does use the theater 200 chip
Ati E-Home Wonder

The main reason for pointing this out is that if you're set on getting a ATI card you might want to consider this. You can get this card and a separatie ati graphics card for about the same price(maybe a bit more) as a comparble AIW, but separate cards makes you more flexible if you ever decide to upgrade.

offtopic :
I also used the AIW (7500) but must say I like the quality and ease of use of the pvr250 a lot better. Mpeg compliancy is almost completly resolved.
This is offtopic since Rayan allready seems to have decided to buy an ATI card, don't know why (probably due to the high visibility of the ati users on this forum), but thats his choice

[lordsmurf]

E-Home Wonder. Interesting. New to me. I'll have to check it out. Anybody know where to buy one? What price?

SHS, Hauppauge is not junk, but is not without it's own problems either. Stating that people left product A for product B says nothing about the product... it just says those 17 people you know quit. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's not conclusive evidence of any kind.

This forum still sees a good chuck of Hauppauge questions regarding MPEG-2 compliancy failures, so it's not entirely gone.

The "in case you want to upgrade" argument, while with merit, is actually not representative of the larger audience. Believe it or not, most people never upgrade. They just add things. When it comes time to upgrade, they do the whole computer, not just a video card. I've never found that to be a good reason for anything as it relates to computers. Experience in this matter.

If SageTV and BeyondTV are anything like there predecessors (with different names, likely to hide the new product from its past), I'd stay far, far away. The Snapstream (and clones) was some of the most pitiful capture software that existed.

DVD recorders are really nice, but they can do ONE THING and ONLY ONE THING. Captures cards are for more advanced and experienced editing. A DVD recorder is a digital VCR, and the quality it puts out (in terms of menus, and anything that was degraded) will LOUDLY show it's imperfections. Only use it with perfect source (like direct tv recordings or first-generation tapes)

There are better cards than ATI, but you will pay for them. And pay dearly. Hit the Shop Matrox site and look around.

Full hardware encoding is also not perfect. Don't let that term fool you either. It MAY be better, but even pure software can do just as good if not outright better, as long as the power is there in the system. ATI is hybrid.

[BrainStorm69]

E-Home Wonder. Interesting. New to me. I'll have to check it out. Anybody know where to buy one? What price?

www.newegg.com $73

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=15-116-308&depa=0

Looks interesting, but what's up with the Conexant chip on it? Also looks like it may only work with WinXP Media Center OS.

[SHS]

Amontillado is rigth it dose come with a Theater 200 chip.
lordsmurf I wasn't SAYING there they junk maybe you don't unstand my post.
BrainStorm69 the Conexant CX23416 chip is the Hardware MPEG2 Encoder being the Theater 200 act just like the Conexant CX23880 what boil down to is they build-in everything audio decoder/video decoder in one chip.
Yes BrainStorm69 it for Windows XP Media Center Edition but also work under SageTV some what.

[indolikaa]

Why you want three computers when can do with one computer I know few people that are runing "4" WinTV-PVR 250 or WinTV-PVR USB2 or more tuner on one computer.

Bigger is not always better. It depends on the application at hand. And when it comes to capturing video, I multitask like crazy. You cannot capture, edit, author and burn at the same time on one machine (I don't care how powerful the machine is) and expect the results I demand.

Ok then how come there not one word on this forum or for that matter any of the other TV forums where you talk about PVR 250 vs ATI head-to-head compared? unless you using a diff name.

I myself don't use any other name around here.

As for head-to-head comparisons? That's subjective, and you cannot make such comparisons with any definitive conclusions. And if you try, you're going to incite hate and discontentment from the camp whom you did not rate the better product. That is why I never have bothered to post any ATI vs. ADVC-100 or ATI vs. DVStorm2 trials I have run.

Now I'll give an opinion anytime someone wants one. But when you're dealing with a subjective matter like this, why fight that battle? If I take the time to captures identical timecode locations and post them on this forum, should I assume everybody is using calibrated monitors so that they see it the same way I do? Should I assume that decisions can be made from posts that have been JPGd to conserve bandwidth?

If it captures without dropped frames and creates compliant MPEGs, a lot of the judgment is passed through the eyes of the beholder. That is hard to quantify.

[babyboo]

I see there is the ATI FireGL™ X1 128MB 8x AGP w/Dual DVI
I saw it as an option on the alienware website. I saw the 256 version for almost 700 US...Ouch! Not sure if it has VIVO