Best Quality video from a PVR/capture card?

[Faustus]

Ok so I'm in the market for one right now, a friend currently has a Hauppauge PVR 250, but the TV quality is just not that impressive. Mind you the box its running in isn't that fast, but I was under the impression that the card had a Hardware encoder and therefore at least the video it captures isn't really affected by the speed of the computer.

so my question is this... if I dont care about software compatiblity (meaning it does't have to use any specific piece of software as long as good software IS avalible somewhere) then what is the best card picture quality wise out there in the PVR/Capture card arena.

Three quick points.

1. Doesn't have to be ultra cheap.
2. Please NOT ultra expensive (not looking for a card over about say... $400 max)
3. I realize the word best is very subjective, sorry for that. I just want the best on screen quality possible so I'm not dissapointed. Better to spend more money and be happy then less and feel cheated.

Advice?

[trevlac]

Sorry if this is a bit 'off topic', but for TV capture ....

I'd sign up for dish network. Get their 'PVR' (usually free with a contract). They encode the mpegs. Send them to you. You can pull them directly off of the hard drive in the 'PVR'. Best thing since DVD. Their source is better than what I can get. Their equipment is also probably way out of my league.

There are some quirks ... like the mpegs are not 100% DVD compliant, but i've never had trouble, and it works for many other people.

Of course you would not be able to 'record' other sources, seeing the PVR does not really record anything.

[Faustus]

Yeah not exactly what I'm looking for. I need the card or software to beable to do the mpeg encode.

[proxyx99]

I would suggest checking USB2 HW encoders (Capture Cards-link on the left, enter USB2 as criteria). Standalones are easy to configure, portable and stable. Not too many to choose from but you will find at least 8 (I believe).

[trevlac]

Yeah not exactly what I'm looking for. I need the card or software to beable to do the mpeg encode.

Again, I'm sorry if I'm way off base. Just ignore me then. I'll keep quiet. But if you are going to spend real money to 'capture TV', I see few better options than what I pointed out. Put another way, there are 4 general sources for people here. VHS, Camcorder, DVD, and TV. Few people would advocated capturing and mpeg encoding #3. There is also a way not to have to capture and encode #4.

[Faustus]

No problem at all with your suggest it just doesn't however match up with what I want to do.

Anyone else have a suggestion?

[indolikaa]

What about the ATI AIW with MMC 8.x?

It has a PVR function built-in to the design. It's not the most user-friendly interface but I don't think you'd have that much problem with it. I can't use it to its fullest potential because I'm on a satellite receiver but it does allow me to time-shift.

As for quality? I basically do what LordSmurf does (video transfers and restoration) and nobody has complained about the quality, even those with big-screen and plasma TVs.

Just my 2¢

[Faustus]

Not sure abuot the MMC 8, but I've seen one of the lower end (9200?) AIW cards and really didn't see them as any better then the PVR-250s. Sometimes macro blocks... sometimes mpeg stream errors, bleeding colors and just a fuzzy picture in general.

Look I'm not saying I want perfect but is quality of my DVMC-DA1 (or was it DA2, I can never remember) with a hardware mpeg encoder just to much to ask?

[Keo]

Not sure abuot the MMC 8, but I've seen one of the lower end (9200?) AIW cards and really didn't see them as any better then the PVR-250s. Sometimes macro blocks... sometimes mpeg stream errors, bleeding colors and just a fuzzy picture in general.

hmm... AIW work fine & pic is acceptable with correct settings/tweaking. It's also one of the widest used pc/pvr " cheapo" ready to go cards out there. That would be my recommendation... It's not hardware encoding though..
I don't think it's the card that's to blame for poor tv picture, I'd look closer at the signal itself and the filters/settings for the captures (plenty of posts here regarding that...look it up)

Look I'm not saying I want perfect but is quality of my DVMC-DA1 (or was it DA2, I can never remember) with a hardware mpeg encoder just to much to ask?

If you wanna go all hardware and high quality go with canopus, ADVC-50 for example.. Lots of ppl say lots of good things about it..
Did you even check the capture cards list? .........................

And i have to agree with Trevlac, best solution for this(capturing TV..) is a REAL PVR, from your satellite/tv company, hands down. As far as converting to Mpeg, that's what a usb wire, virtual dub and a pc is for...

[indolikaa]

Not sure abuot the MMC 8, but I've seen one of the lower end (9200?) AIW cards and really didn't see them as any better then the PVR-250s. Sometimes macro blocks... sometimes mpeg stream errors, bleeding colors and just a fuzzy picture in general.

Never had any of those problems myself.

What about the DVStorm2 by Canopus?

[Faustus]

Yeah I checked the list, but the reason I'm asking here is everything is very subjective I've found. There are leigons of people who think the PVR-250 is great.

As far as the signal in questions a real TV was hooked to it previous to PVR card and the picture was perfect. Also the cable line itself doesn't make macroblocks.

I'll look into the 2 devices suggested above, see if either meets my requirements.

[MrMungus]

Look I'm not saying I want perfect but is quality of my DVMC-DA1 (or was it DA2, I can never remember) with a hardware mpeg encoder just to much to ask?

What bitrate was your friend using? For some reason, the PVR-250's initial setting is 4Mbps.

I'm getting great results using my DVMC-DA2 as the source for on the fly MPEG-2 capture.

I had a PVR-250 but returned it because there was no way to do timed recording (I mean X hours, not scheduling using the scheduler).

I have the ADS Instant DVD USB 2.0 right now but I'll probably return it since the quality there isn't as good as analog > DV > MPEG-2 using the DA-2.

[ROBERT BLACK]

Forgive my ignorance but DVMC-DA2 is the acronym for what card?

[snafu099]

I have the ADS Instant DVD USB 2.0 right now but I'll probably return it since the quality there isn't as good as analog > DV > MPEG-2 using the DA-2.

I also have the ads IDVD-2 and if I could find a combination tuner/hw enconder/pvr that gave me the same quality I would be a happy user. Unfortunatly ads's new instant tv is software encode, dependant on high end pc. In the capture list is a compro usb videomate with specs that I want and the review is excellent also, but I question it's authunticity as I have not found the card currently available for sale, so how was it reviewed.

If the pc hardware encoders have not yet reached the quality of a standalone recorder, my opinion is, then, it is just a matter of time before they catch up.

[MrMungus]

I have the ADS Instant DVD USB 2.0 right now but I'll probably return it since the quality there isn't as good as analog > DV > MPEG-2 using the DA-2.

I also have the ads IDVD-2 and if I could find a combination tuner/hw enconder/pvr that gave me the same quality I would be a happy user. Unfortunatly ads's new instant tv is software encode, dependant on high end pc. In the capture list is a compro usb videomate with specs that I want and the review is excellent also, but I question it's authunticity as I have not found the card currently available for sale, so how was it reviewed.

If the pc hardware encoders have not yet reached the quality of a standalone recorder, my opinion is, then, it is just a matter of time before they catch up.

Well, the weird thing here is that ADS says that the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 uses the same hardware MPEG-2 encoder chip as many DVD Recorders. That's one reason I got it. But check out the difference between these captures (this is an extreme example but typical).

Original screencap from the DVD:
http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/02dvd.jpg

Analog > DV > MPEG-2 on the fly using Ulead DVD MovieFactory 2 SE:
http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/02dmf-vbr8.mpg.jpg

Analog > MPEG-2 on the fly using ADS Instant DVD 2.0:
http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/02ads-vbr8mbps.jpg

Notice anything? On bright areas in the ADS hardware capture device (in this case, the UV purple circles and lettering) there's significant bleeding (in this case, to the left and below). This also occurs with the PVR-250 but to a *much* lesser extent.

Oops. For comparison, here are a pair of the same frames from the PVR-250.

http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/02pvr250-vbr4-6.jpg
http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/03pvr250-vbr4-6.jpg


This also occurs on areas of bright color (note the red light on the back wall):

http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/03ads-vbr8mbps.jpg

Whoever was asking: The Sony DVMC-DA2 is an analog > DV (firewire) converter similar to the ADVC-100. I don't think it's made anymore.

[ROBERT BLACK]

Whoever was asking: The Sony DVMC-DA2 is an analog > DV (firewire) converter similar to the ADVC-100. I don't think it's made anymore.

Thanks Mungus. But is the Canopus ADVC 100's caps very similar to the captures with the Sony DA-2s? I.E., no colour bleeding? I'm in the market for a new cap solution with hardware encoding myself.

[spagel]

Ok so I'm in the market for one right now, a friend currently has a Hauppauge PVR 250, but the TV quality is just not that impressive. Mind you the box its running in isn't that fast, but I was under the impression that the card had a Hardware encoder and therefore at least the video it captures isn't really affected by the speed of the computer.

I bought a 350 as the 250 DOES NOT have hardware encoding. Only the 350 has. I am happy with it but do all my digital capturing with a DEC 2000 (Freeview encoder, UK), as qualitiy is much better.

[MrMungus]

Whoever was asking: The Sony DVMC-DA2 is an analog > DV (firewire) converter similar to the ADVC-100. I don't think it's made anymore.

Thanks Mungus. But is the Canopus ADVC 100's caps very similar to the captures with the Sony DA-2s? I.E., no colour bleeding? I'm in the market for a new cap solution with hardware encoding myself.

I don't know. I don't have an ADVC-100 (unless someone wants to send me one to evaluate...)

There seem to be a lot of ADVC-100 users here. You might start a new thread if you have questions particular to that device.

[MrMungus]

Ok so I'm in the market for one right now, a friend currently has a Hauppauge PVR 250, but the TV quality is just not that impressive. Mind you the box its running in isn't that fast, but I was under the impression that the card had a Hardware encoder and therefore at least the video it captures isn't really affected by the speed of the computer.

the 250 DOES NOT have hardware encoding

How did you come to this conclusion?

[FulciLives]

Ok so I'm in the market for one right now, a friend currently has a Hauppauge PVR 250, but the TV quality is just not that impressive. Mind you the box its running in isn't that fast, but I was under the impression that the card had a Hardware encoder and therefore at least the video it captures isn't really affected by the speed of the computer.

I bought a 350 as the 250 DOES NOT have hardware encoding. Only the 350 has. I am happy with it but do all my digital capturing with a DEC 2000 (Freeview encoder, UK), as qualitiy is much better.

This is NOT true. The 250 model has hardware encoding.

The 350 has both hardware encoding and decoding. It has a special MPEG-1/MPEG-2 capable output. The benefit of this output is that the quality is as good as a stand alone DVD player ... i.e., much better than using the video out jack on a standard computer video card.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[proxyx99]

Mr.Mungus. Good work. The ADS capture seems much fuzzier. Is this the case (beside bleeding colors)? For those who look for analog-DV converter I recommend DAC-100, Datavideo, cost 170 bucks. Same quality as Canopus for less (exception:does not capture pure B&W sources).

[lordsmurf]

My top suggestion is the ATI All In Wonder card lineup, especially the newer Theatre 200 chips (found in 9000 PRO, 9700, 9800, VE, a few more, check the box) ... only real drawback to this card is it can be a bitch to install

the Hauppauge 250 if absolutely against ATI, it has some problems though with compliancy on MPEG streams, so be aware of that, not the most friendly of cards, but not bad at all

and then Canopus ADVC-100 (although it's overpriced and only does DV), maybe the DataVideo DAC-100 to save a few bucks. And I don't like DV compression. MPEG capture can be a problem, just cross your fingers when installing and using MainConcept 1.4

You could swing by the Fry's Plano or Garland store and grab a TDK indiCAPTURE ... I'm curious how well those work. It looks to have potential. Does USB2.0 capture full res MPEG-2 interlaced ... I'd test myself, but no 2.0 USB here, don't want to install cards for testing anymore

If you want great quality MPEG capture, I'd seriously look at the ATI .. I think any "quality problems" you saw were the signal or the computer monitor showing the signal for its true form (remember, can't see it in tv set)

You could always look at the Canopus MPEG-PRO, bhphotovideo.com may come close to the $400 price, as the Canopus MSRP is like $600

If you look for used cards on eBay, you may be able to pickup the Matrox RT2500 for $300-400 .. a card that once fetched $2000 when new.

I'd pretty much pooh-pooh anything else.

[MrMungus]

Mr.Mungus. Good work. The ADS capture seems much fuzzier. Is this the case (beside bleeding colors)? For those who look for analog-DV converter I recommend DAC-100, Datavideo, cost 170 bucks. Same quality as Canopus for less (exception:does not capture pure B&W sources).

Yeah, that might be an issue, too. I added these two from the PVR-250 above:

http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/02pvr250-vbr4-6.jpg
http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/03pvr250-vbr4-6.jpg

which are much better than the ADS.

Someone else might be able to explain why.

Hmm...maybe I should have kept my Hauppauge card. :P

[MrMungus]

I'd test myself, but no 2.0 USB here, don't want to install cards for testing anymore

Come on. I got a USB 2.0 card for $14.95 at the Garland store.

[MrMungus]

You could always look at the Canopus MPEG-PRO, bhphotovideo.com may come close to the $400 price, as the Canopus MSRP is like $600

If you look for used cards on eBay, you may be able to pickup the Matrox RT2500 for $300-400 .. a card that once fetched $2000 when new.

Do you think the more expensive cards are really worth the extra expense? What do they do that the cheaper ones don't?

[proxyx99]

I wonder if TDK indiCAPTURE is a rebranded Dazzle box or they have developped it by themselves (which I seriously doubt due to "0" history in this area). MrMungus how would you describe ADS InstantDVD2 performance and quality (sharpness-detail, bleeding, noise, artifacts)?

[SatStorm]

Latest Asus Tuner Cards, has those new excellent 10bit chips. Combine them with mainconcept 1.4.1, a fast CPU (~2GHz) and the right drivers and you have excellent results, no macrovision problems and true capture on any framesize you wish.

For NTSC users, latest ATI cards are a good deal.

The best of all are the Matrox cards. But there are expensive...

[MrMungus]

I wonder if TDK indiCAPTURE is a rebranded Dazzle box or they have developped it by themselves (which I seriously doubt due to "0" history in this area). MrMungus how would you describe ADS InstantDVD2 performance and quality (sharpness-detail, bleeding, noise, artifacts)?

Bleeding is a problem on really bright/contrasty areas as shown above and there does seem to be more noise and artifacts than the PVR-250 or capture via Firewire to MPEG-2. The odd part is that the ADS cap shown above is about 8mbps while the PVR-250 cap was set to 4-6 Mbps and averages about 4Mbps.

[Faustus]

Mr.Mungus. Good work. The ADS capture seems much fuzzier. Is this the case (beside bleeding colors)? For those who look for analog-DV converter I recommend DAC-100, Datavideo, cost 170 bucks. Same quality as Canopus for less (exception:does not capture pure B&W sources).

Yeah, that might be an issue, too. I added these two from the PVR-250 above:

http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/02pvr250-vbr4-6.jpg
http://www.wiredvideo.com/tools/03pvr250-vbr4-6.jpg

which are much better than the ADS.

Someone else might be able to explain why.

Hmm...maybe I should have kept my Hauppauge card. :P

The software in quesiton that I was using was Snapstream PVR (or whatever its called this week) and it didn't look half that good no matter what I did, but then I tried it with the default software and that didn't look so hot either. I dunno maybe I'm crazy, or maybe I just have bad luck.

[MrMungus]

The software in quesiton that I was using was Snapstream PVR (or whatever its called this week) and it didn't look half that good no matter what I did, but then I tried it with the default software and that didn't look so hot either. I dunno maybe I'm crazy, or maybe I just have bad luck.

Well, why not just get one, test it, and return it if it doesn't work out for you?