How do you want your HD-DVD

[jntaylor63]

http://www.eet.com/sys/news/OEG20031113S0028


Looks like the DVD Forum may pick a standard for HD-DVD by end of year.

Pretty much down to two sides:

A.) MPEG2 with bigger disks and higher bitrate. (i.e. Blu-Ray)
B.) Same DVD disk, different codec (MPEG4, H.264, WM9)

So, which would you pick? Me, I'm thinking that a new codec would best best. Why?

1.) Movie makers can use the same hardware to press the new HD-DVD's. They will only new encoder software.

2.) DVD set-tops will only need new chips to decode.

3.) DVD is a Proven media. (Blu-Ray is still beta.)

4.) Prolong our PC-DVD players and burners.

5.) Items 1 to 4 should be cheaper for you & I and get the HD-DVD out to market faster!

6.) More support for DivX?

True MPEG2 today can do Hi-Def, but if you can get the same quality at a lower rate, why not. H.264 has shown that it can produce D1 quality at 1.5 mbs vs. 4 mbs at MPEG2 D1. I have read that the cable companies are looking at H.264 for hif-def. (No way they can do it with a cable line plus internet with MPEG2!)

I'don't think that Blu-Ray is bad. It looks great for data storage and the last bullet to kill VCR's. But I think that the above logic is the best for the consumer. In the end, it will be the Hollywood giants on the DVD Forum seats who will make the standard. (But please not WM9, Bill is in our lives too much as it is.)

JNT.



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[Jimmykicker]

I'm a total newbie on this topic, but am looking for some answers. As I understand it, the higher the compression rate, the lower the quality. To keep quality, I have always dealt with MPEG-2 streams. In fact, I have never seen a MPEG-4 stream played with any codec that looked even near as good as an MPEG-2. Now if this is the case, why would you want to use the same DVD disks now, but with different codecs? Aren't you just losing all that quality that you wanted to retain?

[jntaylor63]

Lower bit rates does not mean lower quality.

Encode a 720x480 clip with MPEG2@4000 vs 720X480 with MPEG1@5000

(If MPEG1 were better, would we not all see it on our DVD's.)

The point is that with a better codec, you can get a lower or equal rate with equal or better quality.

[ZippyP.]

If MPEG1 were better, would we not all see it on our DVD's.

Mpeg1 and 2 at the same resolution and bitrate will look the same. We don't have mpeg2 on DVD's because it is a "better" looking, we have it because Mpeg2 has more features.

From a different thread:

The real advantage of MPEG2 over MPEG1 isn't file size or quaility it's the features it supports: interlaced source, multiple audio streams, multiple angles, anamorphic video, selectable subtitles (or subscreens which allow), fully interactive menus, etc.

[ZippyP.]

the higher the compression rate, the lower the quality.

That's a general rule when you're talking about a particular codec. When comparing between codecs then some are more efficient than others and can have the same quality with smaller file sizes. If you have not seen mpeg4 looking any good it's because the bitrate was set too low. It's the same for mpeg2, set the bitrate too low and it looks bad as well.

A 1 CD divx can be pretty good, certainly much better than can be achieved with mpeg1 or mpeg2 of the same size.

[jntaylor63]

ZippyP,

You make a good point both about Mpeg1&2 and about Mpeg4 quality.

But, from the posts here about VP6 and EVD:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185538

it looks like the DVD Forum is not looking at MPEG4. Looks more like it will be Blu-Ray:

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/4627.cfm

So that means more hardware to replace. I understand that upgrading is part of the lifecycle, but when you can leverage current hardware to keep costs down, why not?

I think I'm going to go an HTPC solution. With that I can upgrade with codec installs and as little hardware as possible. (Rather than trashing all of it down the road.)

[Jimmykicker]

So what is the best mpeg4 encoding program in everybody's opinion?? I heard a little about on2's vp6, but haven't ever used it....and are there any that can honestly make an mpeg4 look as good as a DVD...

[FulciLives]

I've done MPEG-4 DivX DVD back-ups at 640x480 and they can look very nearly as good as the original DVD if you use a high enough bitrate. Of course the actual bitrate needed to achieve this is different with every source but just about any DVD source (very clean source) will look good at say 1500kbps

That is roughly a 2-CD size DivX (about 1400MB) but usually you only see lower quality 1-CD DivX on the 'net and of course they don't look as good as a 1-CD DivX is usually under 1000kbps which ... even for DivX ... is too low if you are shooting for 640x480

So I think MPEG-4 would be fine for HDD but I still question if a dual layer DVD is big enough for HDD even using MPEG-4

I mean if you need to use roughly 1500kbps for 640x480 to look good then a much higher bitrate would be needed for the higher HD resolutions and although MPEG-4 will always use less compression than MPEG-2 I still think that a dual layer DVD may not "cut it" size wise.

So for HD DVD I think I would rather wait longer and have a better solution i.e., Blue-Ray

HOWEVER ... having said that ... I would like to see more stand alone DVD players have DivX/MPEG-4 playback. A single layer DVD recordable can easily handle at the very least 2 whole movies if not 3 when using DivX with quality that would be damn close to a very high bitrate MPEG-2 backup.

However if dual layer DVD burners and discs do come out then I see even less need of DivX/MPEG-4 since a dual layer disc will finally give us that encode our own stuff (like VHS/TV captures) the ability to use very high bitrates thus getting around macroblocking and over compression etc. while still being able to get at least 2 hours (or more) on a single DVD.

It will be great to be able to use a CBR of 8000kbps and PCM audio and still fit 2 hours on a single disc

- John "FulciLives" Coleman