some old news regarding dvd-r and dvd+r compatability

[jc399]

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=DVD%20Media%20Fo...bility%20Tests

DVD-R is
The Most Compatible DVD Format
Compatibility results: DVD-R=96.74% DVD+R=87.32%

CDR-Info, has determined that DVD-R is clearly the most compatible DVD recording format on the market. To assess the compatibility level of DVD Formats we created video content on a DVD writer using DVD-R/RW and +R/RW media. These discs were then played back in other DVD players and DVD-ROM drives –over a 1,000 combinations of drive, media and player were tested.

The content created on a DVD-R/RW writer using a write once DVD-R disc played back in virtually all (96.1 percent) of the DVD players and DVD-ROM drives used in the research. DVD+R discs played back in 87.6 percent of the devices tested.

Since the market for recording to DVD has developed, and different formats have emerged, consumers have been concerned about the compatibility of their DVD recording devices with DVD players and DVD-ROM drives. The findings suggest that for customers who wish to create content on a DVD writer and interchange this with other PC drives and consumer DVD players, DVD-R is the clear format of choice.

[tompika]

Thank you jc399 for finding the 2 months old cdrinfo article
that has been discussed about hundred times.

[jc399]

And thank you for pointing that out. Yet, as painful as the truth may be it sometimes needs repeating. This is particularly true in a sticky where I read the differences in player compatibility between dvd-r and dvd+r are infinitesimal (or should I say infinitecimal [sic]).

[tompika]

Really sad when newbies(on this forum) don't do any research before posting.


You want to prove the superiority of a format over an other one?
You like when the truth is being repeated?

Then I'll do some for you (as I've done it hundred times here but why would you know that):

1. I don't think the 96.74% vs 87.32% (they got with their 3 PC writer and 2 standalone recorder) is that bad.

2. I (and several others) burn the plus media on Ricoh based drives that can be set to write DVD-ROM (or minus) booktype that practically compatible with any player.
Does that sound better than 96.74%? Do I start bitching at DVD-R/W? No. Why do you?

You made your point - I made mine, lets not screw up defense's great media review with a plus-minus war.
PM me if you have any productive to say.

Peace, tompika

[cksmoooth]

My disks seem to burn fine but in some instances I notice pixelation or freezing/studdering issues towards the end of the movies. What is causing this?

One common misconception is to assume that, because a burn has completed successfully according to the burning software. the burn is a 100% good copy. This simply is not the case no matter what grade of media you use - my advice would be to always run a verification after the burn (for example tick the box in nero while burning) and you may encounter a couple of verification errors.

In most cases these will be one-byte differences (these may cause slight artifacts, but aren't really an issue) but inferior media could have many of these errors. The comp.exe utility in windows can help you check these errors.

In some cases, certain files (especially the main VOBs) will be unreadable according to the verification, even though the burn would ordinarily have claimed to be successful! The affected files will attempt to be read by DVD players, but may cause problems around the area of the film that the file was most affected.

The moral: always spend an extra 5-15 minutes verifying your burns, as this can be quicker than sitting through the movie even if you need to re-burn due to failure of verification.

[lordsmurf]

my advice would be to always run a verification after the burn

This does not always work. I've gotten verification failures when there was no error. And I've had bad burns pass the verification with flying colors. Because of this, I consider verification to be a waste of time. The best verification is to open files (if a data DVD) or play the movie and watch it (or at least skip to each chapter for a minute or so). And if the material is that important, burn several copies on top-quality media like Ritek, Maxell or Pioneer. Better safe than sorry.

And FWIW, I consider the DVD-R=96.74% vs DVD+R=87.32% information to be important, as I sometimes do work for other people. The test results vary from test to test, but the conclusion is always the same with -R having some sort of small lead above +R. Is it enough to call +R junk? Absolutely not, but the concern is there for those that want to worry. "Infinitecimal" was a bit of an exaggeration, just to get the point across, but the percentage is rather small and not something most people should concern themselves with. Some of us are just more uptight and want to fret over a 5% difference in compatibility. Let us.

[cksmoooth]

Hi lordsmurf,
I'm surprised that you have had such negative results with data verification - i have had no problems with that system of data integrity insurance. For vitally important data, i have burnt with verification and then double-checked with the windows comp.exe program and have not yet seen any discrepancies in the results.

I've gotten verification failures when there was no error.

As I say, any errors on high quality media will usually be barely one or two bytes on the whole disc - these would hardly be noticable in a video or audio stream unless you knew exactly what frames to check

I've had bad burns pass the verification with flying colors.

I've not encountered this myself in a hundred or so burnt discs. Bad burns have been bad burns, and i've been notified about it in verification. However, the only software I've been using is Nero, and I'm very pleased with what it's produced so far. The media type has always been DataSafe branded Ritek G04 media, which i consider the most compatible and reliable for my usage.

I would be interested in hearing more about what software has been giving you these verification discrepancies, especially if it is Nero.

[defense]

@LordSmurf..there is no doubt that the verification process may or may not work on specific media. I have personally had issues where I ran Kprobe and Nero Cd Speed on specific disks which not only went to 100%, but had fairly good results. I then found out "QUICKLY," fortunately, that there were issues with the disks. I could NOT rip the disks with DVD DECRYPTER OR ANY other ripper.

The tell tale sign is if you can actually RIP the disk after a burn. That's my sure proof way from now on because even if there is an issue with playback...I can simply re-rip the disk.

As far as the other issue of media compatility.....I've read other reports besides cdrinfo where the gap is closer. I don't think saying there is an "infitinitecimal" difference between the two formats was overexxageratting at all. The difference is extremely minute and take a look at any decent versatilve dvd player. How many can anyone list which play -R/RW and NOT +R/RW?

Even the last several versions of the PS2 play both formats flawlessly. The gap is very slim and it will continue to get even more narrow as standalone manufacturer's continue to make their standalone players more and more compatibile with both formats. Another thing to mention is that I have yet to find a standalone player that will play the - format and not the + format. However, I have found several standalones which won't play CERTAIN types of media...probably most due to the type of dye used.

The truth is that even if there were technically a 1% difference...and it favored one side or the other..people would still use that as an arguement against one or the other.

[lordsmurf]

I would be interested in hearing more about what software has been giving you these verification discrepancies, especially if it is Nero.

Nero 5.5.x.x.
I'm currently on 5.5.10.20, but I've had this issue on several earlier versions, and have seen it on friends using 5.5.10.28 and 5.5.10.3x and 5.5.10.4x versions. I've heard of RecordNow Max doing the same.

The truth is that even if there were technically a 1% difference...and it favored one side or the other..people would still use that as an arguement against one or the other.

True, true.

[jc399]

Really sad when newbies(on this forum) don't do any research before posting.


You want to prove the superiority of a format over an other one?
You like when the truth is being repeated?

Then I'll do some for you (as I've done it hundred times here but why would you know that):

1. I don't think the 96.74% vs 87.32% (they got with their 3 PC writer and 2 standalone recorder) is that bad.

2. I (and several others) burn the plus media on Ricoh based drives that can be set to write DVD-ROM (or minus) booktype that practically compatible with any player.
Does that sound better than 96.74%? Do I start bitching at DVD-R/W? No. Why do you?

You made your point - I made mine, lets not screw up defense's great media review with a plus-minus war.
PM me if you have any productive to say.

Peace, tompika

I don't know what your problem is but I never once claimed any sort of superiority of one format over another except with regard to player compatibility. I simply posted an article that confirms what most people already know - that dvd-r has a higher compatibility with set top players than dvd+r. If you can't accept a simple fact without without taking offense I think you have a serious problem. Had the results shown a different conclusion I would have been just as happy to post those. Quite frankly I could care less which format is better for the reason I can burn to both types of media. Unfortunately the plus media is less compatible and more expensive so I don't bother much with it.

With regard to your two comments, if I were making movies I would choose the one that plays on the most players (dvd-r) - not the one that is almost as compatible (dvd+r). Furthermore, if you are able to make more compatible burns by burning in a non-standard fashion on a ricoh based burner, good for you. Although you have yet to qualify this statement with an independent unbiased study of your own. In any event I fail to see what that has to do with the vast number of who aren't doing it that way or don't have a ricoh based burner. I would go so far as to say that this is completely irrelevant to the article I posted and which format is most compatible.

[justlearning]

Silly question? Why can't a dvd +or - be produced that would have the quality of the blank dvd 9s that hollywood is using for their movies?

[LanEvo7]

Because its impossible to burn a DVD 9. You want hollywood DVD quality, use two discs.

[tompika]

@jc399

1. New DVD-R/W fans read cdrinfos's test then start to shout that "DVD-R is the clear format of choice" (like you did)
2. New DVD+R/W fans read dvdplusrw.org's articles then start shouting how good that format is.

Yes, I get "serious problems" in both case.



If "most people already know" this article why do you think "it needs to be repeated" every other day?
(your words!)

"Plus media is more expensive" - just read your very first post to face what you get with cheapo medias

Bitsetting is not an "independent study of mine", its a commonly known thing.
(not by you of course)


Regards

[justlearning]

Ok, let me ask again, why cant the same quality of blank media be produced that hollywood uses for their movies; only in a dvd-5 size... so you can use them in your dvd writer

[Sifaga]

Im probably wrong and will be corrected but i thought the DVD9's are two DVD5's stuck together

[MOVIEGEEK]

Im probably wrong and will be corrected but i thought the DVD9's are two DVD5's stuck together

That's a DVD-10

[justlearning]

Let me rephrase again: I do not mean the size of the media should be the same as hollywood uses for their movies, i mean the quality of the media for home dvd writer should be the same quality as hollywood uses to make their dvds. Is their a reason why pc dvd writer media seem to have a lower quality, (incompatability,more errors, unplayable disk) than hollywood produced dvds have.

[Sifaga]

thanks moviegeek

sorry justlearning dont know

[lordsmurf]

Ok, let me ask again, why cant the same quality of blank media be produced that hollywood uses for their movies; only in a dvd-5 size... so you can use them in your dvd writer

"Hollywood" doesn't burn media.

"Real" discs are pressed metal, mechanically made media. The presses are precise. Burning is a sloppy method to recreate the process, using dyes that can have pits and grooves "burned" into the chemical, making an illusion of how a "real" disc would look and work.

That's another reason "Hollywood" has DVD-9 discs. They take two pressed layers and merge them, a process that cannot be recreated with burning, at least not now, and probably not for a long time, given the limits of burning technology.

If you compare a pressed media and a burned media under a microscope, you can see that the pressed media is fairly precise, while the burns are fairly erratic, and it's almost a miracle that burning works at all. They're going to have a hard time when Blu-Ray gets here, as the window for error has been made even more finite, and the 4x and 8x DVD burning is already pushing the envelope.

I guess that's another MISCONCEPTION ABOUT DVD MEDIA: pressed discs and burned discs are not the same in any regards.

[justlearning]

Thank you lord for your help So blanks for burning will never be as good as pressed media? Are all big title dvds pressed? Or are some copied?

[lordsmurf]

Thank you lord for your help So blanks for burning will never be as good as pressed media? Are all big title dvds pressed? Or are some copied?

The only non-presses that exist are promos, screeners, small-time releases (as in independent films produced in-house), and pretty much all home-made discs.

I've had some screeners on DVD-Authoring discs before, but even then, most of those are pressed too. I've bought a few small-time productions that were burned on DVD-General, direct from the producer or director or "studio" (more like a dozen people in a garage somewhere), typically students.

Burning in general costs more and is not as accurate as a press.

[jc399]

@jc399

1. New DVD-R/W fans read cdrinfos's test then start to shout that "DVD-R is the clear format of choice" (like you did)
2. New DVD+R/W fans read dvdplusrw.org's articles then start shouting how good that format is.

Yes, I get "serious problems" in both case.

Excuse me but unlike cdrinfo, dvdplusrw.org which is dedicated to promoting the dvd+r format is hardly an unbiased organization. Why don't you look at the player compatibility list on this website (as I have since well over a year ago) and judge for yourself?

If "most people already know" this article why do you think "it needs to be repeated" every other day?
(your words!)

Where did I say most people already know this article? I said most people already know dvd-r media is more compatible with set top players and it is.

"Plus media is more expensive" - just read your very first post to face what you get with cheapo medias

I experiment with new media all the time. Unlike the situation with dvd+r media, there is quite a lot of variety and much more to choose from. I have had a lot of luck with the vast majority of what I have bought. I can say after burning more than 2000-3000 disks I have a lot of experience with it. I find Lead Data and Optodisc to be quite good and can be had for well under $1. In fact, Lead Data can be had for under 80 cents a piece if you know where to go. Try finding dvd+r media for that price. You can't. Ritek is also quite good and I used to buy it all the time until they raised their prices. You can pay a lot of money for the dvd-r media as well but even within the same brand it is still less money for dvd-r media.

Bitsetting is not an "independent study of mine", its a commonly known thing.
(not by you of course)

Regards

I never said it was an independent study of yours. I said you never produced an independent study proving you get 100% compatibility as you claimed. Again, what you can or can't do only on a ricoh burner is completely irrelevant to the dvd+r as a whole. What part of that is hard to understand?

[tompika]

Excuse me but unlike cdrinfo, dvdplusrw.org which is dedicated to promoting the dvd+r format is hardly an unbiased organization.

Excuse me, but I was talking about cdrinfo's test (not cdrinfo.com!) which clearly stands by the minus format from the first word to to last one.

Again, what you can or can't do only on a ricoh burner is completely irrelevant to the dvd+r as a whole.

Since 80% of the 2.4xplus burners are ricoh based and 90% of the DVD+R medias are RICOHJPN and definetely very good quality, its clearly not.

AS I SAID I admitted that DVD-R had a bit better compatibility than DVD+R.
But you're gonna have to realize that is because those manufacturers did not implement the plus booktype in those players' firmware. The compatibility that I (and several others) experience clearly shows that.

you never produced an independent study proving you get 100% compatibility as you claimed.

You know what I was gonna do that after that study was released but as the flames calmed down I lost my interest in it.
If you want some proof PM thxkid, raggaaman, studebarc,....

I can say after burning more than 2000-3000 disks I have a lot of experience with it.

No doubt you must have a nice little business running. 3000 DVDR in a year...

PS: Whatever you say, be happy with your $0.70 1xPrincos and?/or your 96% compatibility - I'm happy with my $1.30 4xRitek and its 100% compatibility.
You'll be the first one I inform when I find an incompatible player.

And don't forget to do some forum search before posting two months old news!

Regards

[jc399]

AS I SAID I admitted that DVD-R had a bit better compatibility than DVD+R.

My point exactly! So why are you bothering me about this?

You know what I was gonna do that after that study was released but as the flames calmed down I lost my interest in it.
If you want some proof PM thxkid, raggaaman, studebarc,....

When did I ever say "you personally" should do this study? I simply asked you to prove your claims with an independent unbiased study. That usually means a study done by someone other than yourself - like one that has been published in a credible publication by knowledgeable people.

No doubt you must have a nice little business running. 3000 DVDR in a year...

PS: Whatever you say, be happy with your $0.70 1xPrincos and?/or your 96% compatibility - I'm happy with my $1.30 4xRitek and its 100% compatibility.
You'll be the first one I inform when I find an incompatible player.

Do you have a hard time reading or what? When did I ever say I burned 3000 disks in a years time and when did I say I buy $.70 1x princos?

And don't forget to do some forum search before posting two months old news!

Until someone dies and makes you the moderator I will post anything I please regardless of how many times it has been discussed before.

[jc399]

Excuse me, but I was talking about cdrinfo's test (not cdrinfo.com!) which clearly stands by the minus format from the first word to to last one.

And one more thing, just because you don't like what they say doesn't mean they are wrong. Since cdrinfo has no stake in the format I would tend to believe them long before I would believe the dvd+r consortium. Equal rights among formats isn't a civil rights issue, ya know.

[-jsl-]

jc399: This thread/FAQ is about media and not about some unreliable compatibility test made by Cdrinfo. You can not have read their article if you really believe their numbers because it's flawed in so many ways I don't know where to start. But it has already been discussed in several threads previously so I suggest you leave this thread alone and use the search function. BTW here are some links to other compatibility tests just to show how different results it can be depending on testing methods (and what you want to show...):

C'T: DVD-R 95 %, DVD+R 93 %, 95 % when burnt as DVD-ROM book type
DV Magazine: DVD-R 86 %, DVD+R 87 %
Intellikey: DVD-R 77/78 %, DVD+R 90/78 %

[tompika]

Well said -jsl-

Thanks God, the moderators (or administrator) separeted this CDRINFO compatibility "test" from defense's MEDIA sticky as it doesn't belong there.

[Baldrick]

Please post any comment about that article in this topic:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=169233&highlight=cdrinfo