Capturing Animation...is the pefect capture possible?

[Coluph]

I have been trying for quite some time to convert cartoons from video tapes to some other format, such as VCD, SVCD and DVD that will play in a stand alone player. I have the picture and capture near perfect but there is something that I am just not able to fix no matter what I do, and I'm beginning to think it might be impossible. Hopefully someone here can prove me wrong.

Current Hardware:
Asus AGPV3800U (Asus version of the All in wonder card)
Pentium III - 800 with Genuine Intel Motherboard (can't remember chipset)
448 RAM
Windows Me - for capturing the original file only. The Asus card does not capture properly under Windows XP or 2000. (crashes virtualdub, or gets useless fps rate in other software)
Windows XP - for running filters/encoding/writing the disk


The problem:
The finished product looks beautiful, no artifacting, combing, dropped frames, sound in perfect synch etc except for one thing...
If you get a scene that tends to be scrolling or panning, you get this horrible uneven jitter or jerkyness. You only notice this on animated sequences, live action you hardly notice it, and I think this must have something to do with the deinterlacing.

Is there any way to overcome this or is this just the nature of the format and I'm going to have to live with it?

Process I am using to make videos:

Capture using virtualdub in Windows Me, various resolutions depending on the output of the format. I usually go one resolution higher than what I am going to use as the finished product. (ie 640x480 if I'm doing a VCD) I am using the Asus ASV High Quality codec. Using other codec's tends to drop frames with this card and there is no visible difference in picture quality, nor do using different codecs make the problem go away.

Once it is captured I load into Windows XP, and run virtual dub again, with my filters:
The best results I've managed to get are using;
Deinterlace MAP
Smart Smoother
Null Transform
Warp Sharpener

I encode into the MPEG4 Microsoft codec as an inbetween file...(I use it becaues it works...huffy gives me scary results at times (reversed colour, wierd gamma problems etc, and VirtualDub complains about the Panasonic DV codec and won't load the file)
After the filters have been run I go over to TMPEG to encode to mpeg 1 or 2, using the noise filter, and sound filters. I let Tmpeg resize the resolution to whatever it needs to make a complient file for Nero.

Am I doing something wrong? Will different capturing hardware make a difference? I've been pondering over either getting something that does DV Conversion like the Canopus DV1394, or just giving up on the computer and getting a Panasonic DVD-Recorder, but I don't know if I will get any better results from either of these options. I've noticed even on some pre-recorded commercial DVD's of older shows do this too (allthoguh not to the extent mine do) so I'm wondering if there is anything that can actually be done about this.


The encoding also takes absolutely forever...any suggestions to speed it up a bit? 25 mins of video will take up to 16 hours and with 400 video tapes to encode this is going to take years to do at this rate.

Looking for any suggestions people can offer.

On a side note, I find that when I write VCD's, some disks won't play very well in my JVC DVD player (recent model) RW's have a horrible time, CDR's usually work but I've had a few that stop working after a month or two and you get blockiness as if it can't read the disk...would this be the media I'm using...something wrong with my burner, or somethign wrong with my DVD player. Burning at slower speeds seems to be the best but these new drives won't burn at 1X anymore. Any ideas? Slowest I can write is 4x.

Help!

[lordsmurf]

The jerkiness is caused by your lack of maintaining the interlace. It's that simple. Capture interlaced. Encode interlaced. Never capture deinterlaced and do not use deinterlace filters.

My site, www.lordsmurf.com, was created specifically for cartoon collectors, and specializes in ATI cards. I've got a large update planned for tonight, and a large portion (if not all of the site) shall be up by the weekend.

[nickerous]

I had the exact same problem. I capture in 30 fps and was told that animation is in 24 fps. Inverse Telecine in TMPGEnc took it out by converting it to 24 fps

[lordsmurf]

I had the exact same problem. I capture in 30 fps and was told that animation is in 24 fps. Inverse Telecine in TMPGEnc took it out by converting it to 24 fps

Absolutely not. Animation requires interlace to stay fluid with movement. IVTC may mask some of it, but that's still not the true fix.

[Bilal]

try capturing at a lower resolution

[Coluph]

Hmmm checking the settings on the Asus card....I don't think it can capture at anything other than progressive. If I don't use some kind of inverse telecine or deinterlace, I get a horrible combing effect whenever something moves which makes it look even worse.

I've tried the inverse telecine and it seems better, but I'm not sure if this is it or not (my DVD player hates CDRW's for some reason) and it's hard to tell on the computer.

This is what I've done this time

capture 640x480 vdub asus codec
set frame rate to inverse telecine in vdub
filter vdub
null transform (crop)
smart smoother
warp sharp

compression huffyyuv

recompress in tmpeg for mpeg 1/2
noise filter
source is detected as progressive by tmpeg

looking at the ati card (just a tv wonder card mind you) it looks like it has the ability to capture at 640x240. The asus card as far as I know won't/can't do that, so I'm still a bit at a loss as to how to keep it interlaced without getting nasty side effects.

[whatever]

Have you tried swapping the fields?

[lordsmurf]

You are unlucky enough to have that one combo of OS/card/drivers/MMC that inverts the field information during MPEG capture. You need to run the file through TMPGEnc real quick (use same MPEG settings as were used when you captured) and set the field order to TOP FIELD in order to correct the file.

The combing effect is caused by improper playback of the field order.

[bugster]

I can't help with your quality issues but I may be able to speed up your process a little.

Instead of running the filters in vdub and saving out a new copy of the avi with huffy or some other codec, why not frameserve direct to Tmpgenc at this stage.

Also TmpGenc's noise filter, although it produces good results, is notoriously slow. There must be a decent noise filter for vdub around somewhere that is faster.

[FOO]

You could also flip the field order with restream
which is faster than re-encoding. You probably
have to watch on the TV to notice.

[mic_]

I encode into the MPEG4 Microsoft codec as an inbetween file...

Please, don't..
A much better solution is to use Virtualdub's frameserver to create a bogus avi file which TMPGEnc can read, and hence compress to (s)vcd without any intermediate compression.

[Coluph]

OK, I think I'm getting closer...its getting better.

I'm a bit confused what to do with restream, or tmpeg to fix the top field problem.

My capturing device doesn't capture in Mpeg2 (or Mpeg1 for that matter), so I can't load the files I've captured directly into Tmpeg. I get AVI files. I've tried numerous other codecs (mpeg4, huffy, picvideo) and get dropped frames. The only one I can use is the Asus ASV codec that came with the card or it doesn't work right. The CPU isn't bogged down and the hard drive is a 7200 RPM so I don't think the computer is the issue. Everything is defragged nothing else running etc. I'm getting close to giving up on this card completely.


Is it time to just go get a new capturing system? This card is seeming to be more trouble than it's worth...I've wasted too many hours trying to fiddle with it and get it to work right.

Any suggestions on something that works properly that doesn't require the degree of tweaking to get something decent. It's too bad someone doesn't make an out of the box product that does this kind of thing.

[FOO]

OK you have a mpeg with (suspected) wrong field order.
open it in restream and change the field order check box and write it
back out.

Now is it fixed yes , no ? Is that so hard ?

[Coluph]

I'm still 'fiddling' with things and feel I'm getting nowhere...and more confused and frustrated than anything. I feel this is all a matter of getting the 'settings' right in the software but I can't seem to get a straight answer as to what the right combination is...everyrone has a different idea.

test 1

vdub - warp sharp
frameserve to
tmpeg
-ntsc
-force everything interlace
-noise filter

result - smooth noisey video - unacceptable...anywhere it's an interlaced frame you can clearly see it...looks like crap.

test 2
vdub - map deinterlace
smart smoother
warp sharp
frameserve to
tmpeg
-ntsc film
-noise filter

result - smoothness is ok, but not perfect - clean picture - close but not quite

Is there a guide out there that says how to do this if you cannot capture directly to mpeg? Using this combination of software/hardware? I'm sure someone must have figured out by now how to do this properly, and can save me the pain and suffering of trying every combination until I get the right one which is taking me months.

Is the asus capture card junk? I don't see a way to make it capture in progressive or interlace...there is no setting for it....you get what you get. The only settings you have is the size and frames per second. That is it.

I've put both files up as examples of what the problem is. Please send me a private message if you think you know how to fix it. They are 20 megs each so I don't want to make the link too public.

I'm ready to go and buy the 'working' hardware combination if someone can give me a process to do it and an example to prove it works. I want something that looks like a DVD, not something captured out of the computer. (which is exactly what it looks like now)

What is 'field order' Restream doesn't do anything (makes it worse) and I can't run it quickly through tmpeg because my original file is not an mpeg file. (running it throguh tmpeg takes hours)

I'm trying to find guides but anything that looks close gives me a broken link.

Sorry to sound a little grumpy...words can't describe how frustrating this is getting.

[lordsmurf]

I spend 12 hours coding PHP that still doesn't work properly. I fully understand how you feel.

That aside, I don't know much about the ASUS "all in wonder" cards, and I suspect they are quite a bit different from the actual ATI AIW Radeon cards.

I'd suggest a 7500 ATI AIW Radeon. They're about $125. Maybe a 9000 or 9700 if you want "high performance" computer graphics chip for video games, but you'll pay for it ($200-$350).

I won't touch VDub or AVIsynth or frameserving. My guides at lordsmurf.com are exactly what I do myself, and I have flawless results.

[FOO]

Are you aware that you can see interlacing on your
computer but not on your TV ?
Maybe Test1 was a success

I will assure you that you don't want to de-interlace
if you intend to watch on a TV.

[Coluph]

I played both vesions on the tv...and still can see the noise when I'm leavving it at interlaced...I'm starting to wonder if it's the capture card's inability to capture in an interlaced mode...only will do progressive? looking at screenshots...the BT based cards appear to have an ability to set it to an interlaced mode whcih I can't do on my card....does this make sense?

[Coluph]

I think I may have found it

I dug through my box of hardware and found an old (really really old) noname capture card that has a bt828 chip on it. The asus card uses something else...I forget what, so alot of the features available in some software do not work with it.

I did a capture with this card using the huffy codec, and I was able to set the resolution to a variant of 240...so interlace would not be an issue. I captured at 640 x 240, encoded it, did not touch anything having to do with interlacing telecine anything....bingo...no combing no noise, no duplicated half drawn frames etc.

I compared it to the best capture I did with the other card, using the map deinterlace...the results were allmost indistinguishable between the two unless you went frame by frame. The map deinterlace you could see where the filter removed the interlacing from the frame...very faint but it was there...on the other capture...you just didn't see it. Both were just as clear so I guess it comes down to it being best to capture at the resolution the source material is at and let the encoder deal with resizing it to the right resolution for the finished product..in the case of the test it was SVCD where it put it to 480x480

The kicker...they still aren't as smooth as the video tape source...maybe I'm just being too picky now.... For those of you who've been doing alot of this...is this normal? I've noticed with a few commercial DVD's (ie the sonic the hedgehog series) it's noticeable even there. Futurama it doesn't do it though...this show must be from a digital source...

I guess the plus is this old card has some opensource drivers someone has written for it that work in XP. I think I picked this card up for $10 somewhere about 5 years ago...but it's doing what it's supposed to apparently....

[lordsmurf]

You MUST have interlaced to keep it smooth. That's all there is to it. That requires 352x480 or greater resolution.

If your capture is deinterlaced, but you do not see blended fields, then that means you're dropping a field, which is just as bad. You should notice stair-stepping on curves lines and diagonals. Terrible in animation, not too bad for live-action, but still not great.

Deiterlace is the devil of video.

[Coluph]

Well after some more fiddling...I think I found out what my problem was...The problem was using Virtual Dub...If I just go straight to Tmpeg...problem solved.

I discovered after some further trial and error, that in order to get rid of the combing scan line effect, the mpeg file must be encoded with 3:2 pulldown (inverse telecine) Tmpeg will do this for you but if you run the video with filters through virtual dub first...it messes up the fields and it can't do it properly resulting in jerky noisey video. As much as I like all the nifty filters in vdub, I guess I can't use them...after trying it...I probably don't need them...on a TV you can hardly tell the difference anyway. (Captured Sonic X from my digital cable box this morning direct to PC and then to DVD...worked well)

Looks like it's on to tweaking the encoding now. I'll take that to another area of the forums...want to stay on topic.

I do have a few questions though...one...how many episodes should I be able to get on 1 DVD?

Also LordSmurf is there any way I can get a copy of your tmpeg how to for encoding... I saw it once but all the links to it on this site are coming up dead and I don't see it active on your site yet. Can you email me a copy of it by any chance?

[DrWafer]

lordsmurf has given the reason and the solution to this problem.

i ll explain about PAL.
tv sets expect 50 frames per second to give fluid motion.
captured video consists of 50 fields=25 interlaced frames.
DVD player produce 50 frames out of 25 interlaced frames(makes every field a frame)
so if you deinterlace your captured video you simply remove one every second field so its no possible for dvd player to produce 50 fps

read here and you`ll find all the answers:
http://www.100fps.com/