Using combination of ADVC-100 and TBC-1000 for VHS -> DV

[hhamzeh]

Hi all,
I use a JVC S-VHS VCR (without TBC) and Canopus ADVC-100 DV convertor to capture my VHS tapes and then put them on DVD. Some people suggest the use of a TBC for better quality and getting Audio and video in sync. The ADVC-100 would keep the A/V in sync and I am positive that for a good source of VHS, the TBC does not improve the quality much. Instead, I think more device you put between the conversion path, the quality get more worse. However, for the Older tapes, I am wondering if TBC can help? If anybody has experience/information with combining ADVC-100 and TBC-1000, I would appreciate it if he shares the result of combining these two with me. Any information such as how differet is the resulst with or without using TBC-1000 for older tapes. I just want to evaluate if it is worth to pay at least $300 for TBC. Thanks.

[Metaluna]

One way you can tell if you need a TBC is to look at straight vertical lines in the captured video. If lines that are supposed to be straight seem wavy or jagged, then a TBC might help. I have a JVC VCR with built in TBC and noise filtering (a 9911U), and it does remove some of the waviness from vertical lines. The noise filter also has a small but noticeable effect. Of course, anything you put in the signal path will add a small amount of degradation, so you will have to decide on a tape-by-tape basis if the effect of the TBC is worth the small amount of degradation it will cause.

[hhamzeh]

Thanks for the input.

[hhamzeh]

Any other idea?

[vhelp]

hi hhamzeh..

I have the TBC-100 model. I've tested this toy out ages ago, and based
on my observations..

* for newer type recordings to VHS tapes, ie, Store bought movies or
...TV show you just recorded today.. the monies spent on this device would
...have proved pointless - a complete waist!!

However, through in an OLDER tape, that' sbe through the ages of ware
and tare, and you have have some improvements noticable when using
a TBC.

Infact, adding a TBC to a newer source (store movies etc) would probably
make things worse or as they were - un-noticable.. again, waist of monies
in that scenario.

But, just to make it clear, a TBC does not enhance or make better looking
output. It just re-conditons the source stream to something more legible
for your capturing device to swallow, w/out choaking

Now, it's ben my expeirence, that the SIMA, SEM-CM model does a pretty
decent job helping out the final quality of the source. And, I can only say
that it does, but w/ out dramatizing w/ exageration. It helps, but not
serciously noticeable - except during your encoding. It may help a little
there.. just a little. And, for $49 or less, it didn't hurt me to buy and try.
Only really useful w/ Analog capturing, not DV. DV is a slitely different
color space, and I've noticed that its not much help there. But, I haven't
really theroally tested this out w/ DV ie, ADVC-100.
.
.
EDIT: sed-cm..
In past posts, I've said that the colors are or seem to be more richer. I
would have to stick by that statement. For Analog capturing, and using
uncompressed (no codecs ie, huffy or anything else) to see some maybe
noticable difference in the source. I always felt that the colors were a bit
more richer, but I could have ben too excited at the time

I think that's about it.
-vhelp

[txpharoah]

Cheap JVC SVHS VCRs can sometime do more harm than good. If it's a 2x00 or 3x00 model, try a non-SVHS VCR and test it out. A TBC won't fix everything, just a lot. It'll do more, especially the datavideo TBC-1000, than any card or cheap built-in (note: doesn't apply to JVC TBC/DNR - the DNR makes the difference). The Canopus card isn't that great, but that aside, the TBC will surely do something noticeable for you.

[jar5000]

I've got to agree with V-help. I asked a local Video guru about a TBC for my VHS to DVD transfers and he pointed me in the same direction. When I asked about purchasing an expensive TBC he advised that a TBC would not be cost effective compared to the limeted amount it would help for improving picture quality for the kinds of transfers I was doing. Instead he advised me to pick up a Sima box at Best Buy for 39$ and do a comparison between the two while using my ADVC100. I used one of my worst VHS tapes to cap with and without the Sima and I honestly did notice a difference between the two. The VHS capped with the Sima had much richer colors as well as a more "stable" video stream as opposed to the one without. In fact, the first 10 minutes of the tape wouldnt even cap without the Sima. This may be an isolated case, but I am happy with the 39bucks I spent as opposed to the hundreds I would have layed down for a TBC.

[hhamzeh]

Thank you all,

Hi vhelp and Jar 5000,

1- Could you please compare the qualily obtained from TBC-100/TBC-1000 and SIMA box? regardless of their price, how do you rank them?

2- As I mentioned before, I use ADVC-100 to convert from analog to digital which is well known for keeping the audio and video in sync. If I use a TBC or SIMA box (between VCR and ADVC-100), does not it make the A/V out of sync before it enters ADVC-100?

3- It makes sense that a TBC or SIMA box can have a negative effect/results on a very good VHS/S-VHS source. Do you guys have any experience on using these devices with a very good source?

Thank you very much. hhamzeh

[troyvcd1]

Why dont you try to use avisynth and one of its filters. I heard convolution3d and peachsmoother can do wonders for a noisy video. Plus their all free.

[vhelp]

@ hhamzeh..

I didn't realize you posted question ta me
.
.
sorry, I've ben busy researching an app I'm designing - having problems.
Anyways..

I haven't therally tested the ADVC-100 w/ my SIMA SED-CM unit lately.
Those tests I DID do were a while back when I first got the ADVC-100.
Now, based on my memory, I didn't notice much of anything (improvement
wise) when I hooked up my SIMA and the ADVC-100.

The ADVC-100, on it's own, does does a flawless job. I don't go passing these
gizmos a bad source though. So, my testings aren't as complete (from
that perspective) as you might wish I just don't have any real BAD vhs
sources.

At the moment, I can't really give a "ranking" value. I wish I could, but I'm
really busy w/ other issues, and my mind isn't ready for testing these items
at this time. Sorry.

Maybe some day, when I'm not so busy, I'll try some of these items out
-vhelp

[DaveS]

two questions:

1. ok, I found the sima box

http://www.simacorp.com/products/item.ep.html?session=36b28067844347b0eff9024488d68996&id=386

based on the price I wouldn't think its a TBC...what then does it do? the manual doesn't say. does it do anything I can't do on my pc after capturing?

2. txpharoah - I'm just wondering whether you could elaborate on the comment re cheap JVC VHS...someone gave me an svhs tape to put on dvd so the only SVHS player circuit city had was a $100 JVC (HR-S2901U fwiw). I thought it was cheap b/c it was made in china (not necessarily low quality, just cheap) and b/c this product is very mature & my guess is that all of the cost has now been taken out of the components & there's probably only 1 chip inside the box w/ a set of video heads & a cheap motor/power supply. Anyway, this is a cheapo consumer product but I am wondering about what you said (and whether I should bring back this unit before my 30 days is up). I don't want to put the $ into a super $$ SVHS machine (do they even exist) but am wondering whether I should even use this thing.

I would think it would still give me the svhs resolution w/ s-video out and thought I would use the s-video signal even for my regular vhs tapes which might be worth the $100 itself(?). Anyway if you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate what you have to say.

[txpharoah]

The JVC SVHS machines are great... if you get the right one.

The 2x00 and 3x00 machines are bad, die quickly, and tend to eat tapes. They are glorified VCRs. They are good for recording only. The 3x00 is MUCH better than the 2x00.

The 4x00 and 5x00 are alright, thought the 5x00 is known to easily eat tapes. Decent for playback, great for recording/editing.

The 7x00 and 9x00 machines are best, and are true workhorse machines, WAY AHEAD and WAY DIFFERENT than the lower models. Almost perfect on everything they do. These comes with built-in TBC/DNR filters.

JVC is not flawless, but the average user (heck, even an advanced user) probably won't come into that situation (certain kind of video degradation of VHS can cause bad output, worse than a regular VHS VCR!). Not common.

A SIMA is sort of a pseudo-TBC, not a real TBC.

[jar5000]

Dave,


I can't compare the Sima box with a TBC because I've never used a true TBC. Like I had said, I was advised to not shell out the big bucks on a TBC and try a Sima box first.

The ADVC100 has done an excellent job for me on its own (far better than my horrible ATI AIW experience) but I still had 2 "bad" VHS tapes that would not cap and it was not do to Macrovision. The ADVC100s Macrovision removal trick works everytime. I tried 3 different VCRs hoping it would be the VCRs and not the tapes and still no luck. That is when I started inquiring about a TBC. Well, as you know, I bought the Sima instead. I hooked it up before the ADVC100 and now both "bad" tapes capped flawlessly. I have since used the Sima box on every cap and I am happy with the reuslts.

[dcsos]

The trick is to see how many video lines the dropout (the worst one you have) takes up on the tape, and buy a time base corrector with a window above this theshold. The best TBC's are referred to a full frame synchronizers because they can fix the maximum ,,,,a full frame of video missing from the tape..

So, as the dropouts pass on the tape, the TBC instead puts out a "LAST GOOD SIGNAL" be it a part of a line or a full line missing..

The sima is a proc amp or processing amplifier. It strenthens the test signal accompanying every frame of video, but has little ability to fix the actual damaged part of the screen (picture repair is minimal)
What it does is remove the possiblity that a dropout would de-stabilize the signal momentarily

[radar1200gs]

Hi, first of all apologies for bumping this thread up, but it contained some interesting information.

Am I right in assuming that the Sima SED-CM referred to in this thread is just a simple video stabiliser/enhancer? or does it do more?

I'm Australian, and can't seem to find anyone here who would stock one (google search). There is a product in the link below that appears to be it rebadged (Data Video Copy Box).

http://www.videoguys.com.au/vg2002/accesories/audio_video.htm
Pricing is $150 Australian

There are plenty of composite video only stabilizer/enhancers out there, not so many with S-Video terminals (I have a S-VHS VCR, see info in profile - the built in image stabilizer does not seem to do much). I have noticed a drastic increase in capture quality since purchasing the S-VHS VCR and would not entertain the thought of using a composite only stabiliser/enhancer or TBC.

I'm also considering the unit in the link below, it is a fair bit more expensive than the Sima look-alike - are there any advantages to it compared to the other one?

http://www.pcx.com.au/asp/VCD_DIY_VFil.asp
Pricing is $295 Australian

I have three main uses for my capturing equipment:

recording TV programs to VCD for playback in my DVD player (probably will not benefit from image stabilizer/TBC).

converting very old VHS tapes (some date back to 1982) to VCD (possibly also rerecording in S-VHS).

Converting VHS movies I have purchased to VCD format (I only have a 4:3 aspect ratio TV and dislike the letterboxing on DVD releases, so I prefer to convert VHS to VCD instead). Before anyone gets off of their bikes, I only convert movies I have personally purchased and only for personal use. In Australia this is considered fair usage (you have the right to make and use a backup).

I use pinnacle driver V5.50 and Virtual VCR V2.6.9.6252 to capture.
I capture to HuffYUV, PCM, 25 FPS.

When recording TV AV sync is perfect. When recording Video I have to set Audio as the master stream and then run the avi through virtualdub (Video frame rate control, change so video and audio durations match, full processing of both video/audio streams) to get synchronised video/audio.

I'm hoping a video stabiliser/enhancer will eliminate the VHS sync problems (can be very bad on old or worn tapes) without the expense of a TBC ($475 for the Internal (PCI) DataVideo TBC 100).