How Good Is The TBC on The E30/E50 Units?

[Teshia]

I'm interested in buying an E30 or E50 unit. One of the features I really like about these is that they have built in TBCs so I don't lose a generation capturing from VHS.

I have an out-of-print VHS tape that I'm specifically buying this recorder for - I need to capture it so I can edit the capture on my PC (my capture card just can't handle capturing at DVD resolution). It apparently has Macrovision protection, but I think the signal must be very low. I've tried capturing the tape before on my PC as a VCD and noticed almost no gain or difference in the picture. Now when the E30/E50 units capture and encounter Macrovision, do they just pump up the gain like most VCRs or do they toss up messages that say things like "I won't record, I see Macrovision protection"?

I'm also asking about this because my video capture card in my PC does this (Matrox G-400), sometimes for things that have no Macrovision protection at all, but are just in bad condition. As a result, many G-400 owners had to use anti-Macrovision hacks just to get their cards to record home movies that were in bad shape.

Rest assured, this isn't a question about whether these units will crack Macrovision, just HOW they react to Macrovision protection when they encounter it. I'm not trying to pirate a tape, just backup an out-of-print tape I own that isn't available anymore on VHS/DVD.

[Bix]

It gives you a "cannot record" message if you try copying a tape w/ Macrovision. This can be beaten by a Sima copymaster, of course.

[classfour]

The time based corrector does stabilize the video stream to a degree. However, I have found (with an E20) that Panasonic's sensitivity to CGMS is very high. Many movies will fail to "back up" to an E20 even with a Sima Copy Master (or Sima Color Corrector) in line. I currently use a $20 video stabilizer (purchased on ebay - connections reversed) AND then a Sima Copy Master to defeat the CGMS on many VHS tapes. It still fails on occasion - the Sima failed 90% of the time, and only seemed to work successfully on old, old VHS tapes.

The Panasonic has enabled me to shrink wrap many an old VHS tape and store them.

Credit Panasonic for building what is probably the most MV and CGMS sensitive machine that I've seen.

[pluche]

Using a stand alone full frame TBC solves all those problems, including copy protection - example: Datavideo TBC 1000 (+- 300 usd)

[Teshia]

"It gives you a "cannot record" message if you try copying a tape w/ Macrovision."

...

"Credit Panasonic for building what is probably the most MV and CGMS sensitive machine that I've seen."

But is it so sensitive that it gives a "cannot record" message for old tapes in bad condition WITHOUT Macrovision? Such as home movies from the mid 80s?

[zanos]

Anyone here have a TBC in their vcr? Alot of times it will correct problems in the picture but with some tapes it creates new problems in the picture as well. Is this still the case when the TBC is in the dvd recorder as opposed to the vcr?

[ejai]

I own an E-30 and bought a Datavideo TBC 1000 and was not very happy with the end results. First of all the TBC in both units clash reguarly, yes the TBC in the Datavideo stops the macrovision but you lose sharpness. Also I noticed jitters on some video tape recordings when both units are connected. If I recorded using the E-30 9 only the video would look fine, yet with the addition of the TBC 1000 the video shows signs of jitter.

I have found a TBC unit that is GREAT and also has sharpness, color, tint, contrast and brightness controls on it. It works perfectly with the E-30 and I am able to control sharpness and brightness along with other features I mentioned. The macrovision problem is gone for good. The unit I am talking about is the AVT-8710.

This unit fits in the palm of your hand and is extremely powerful. It works like a champ. I am able to create copies from dvd, tapes cable and direct tv without any quality loss whats so ever. The AVT-8710 costs around $179 but believe me it's worth every penny.

[mkelley]

Well, just to toss in some more fodder -- I have the E20 (bought about a year ago) and it just laughs at Macrovision -- or any other problem. Indeed, no matter what condition the tapes are in (even very old bad Beta tapes that produce a signal that my broadcast quality NLE suite can't lock onto) record just fine on the Panny.

I'm talking a signal that collapses, loses sync, whatever. I had given up copying many of these because, as I said, my broadcast suite just couldn't get an adequate lock (despite having a $3K TBC). But the Panny just said -- "Give me whatever you got" and kept on recording.

Maybe they've changed things with the E30/E50, although people are reporitng problems here with the E20. Mine's the DMR-E20, sold in America (NTSC, obviously) with component out but not in. If nothing more it was worth it to salvage tapes I thought I'd never be able to transfer again.

The interesting thing is it seems to strengthen the signal even just passing through (I guess the TBC is pass-through) because taking the component signal out I can even copy DVDs through it, and it also enables me to use a Hollywood bridge into our firewire machine and copy MV tapes there as well.

I'm going to keep it until it just falls apart.

[ejai]

Hey mkelley,

I had out of sync problems with the computer capture devices and decided to try a standalone. I have to admit that the E-30 is a blessing as far as that goes. I've never experienced one out-of-sync issue since I purchased this machine.

I have hundreds of old vhs tapes and some in very poor condition. I've never had one problem concerning sync with this device. Also I've read that the e-30 has improved in video quality concerning macro blocks. If you decide to try another model I would advise getting the e-50, only because of the black level bug in the e-30 ( even though I have a work around).

ej

[kwag]

I have the Panasonic DME-E20, and I bought this: http://www.dvnation.com/dve.html
I can't complain. I can backup any of my VHS tapes with MacroVision without a problem. It will even copy any DVD, with no matter what copy protection it generates. The VHS copies made with the E20 look better than the original VHS tapes, because of the internal TBC stabilizer.

-kwag

[pluche]

As mentionned before I use Datavideo TBC 1000 , both with Panasonic DMR E20 and E50 (PAL - Europe) with excellent results, no jitter or whatsoever;
However: I replaced the external power source from the TBC-1000 by a better/heavier one; that 's something I learned from the days I had a Panasonic video mixing tool

[ejai]

Most people will not notice or care that the video made by the e-30 and below are lighter than the originals. I spoke to a tech at Panasonic who states that the black level bug is no longer a problem in the e-50 and higher.

I am very picky and will notice the slightest difference. I do agree that the e-30 makes most tapes look better than the original. For those out there that are picky and want as close to the orginal copies they can get, you should purchase the e-50 or higher.

Like I said earlier I found a work around that makes me happy, but if I knew what I know now I would of waited until the brightness problem was fixed.

[kwag]

Most people will not notice or care that the video made by the e-30 and below are lighter than the originals. I spoke to a tech at Panasonic who states that the black level bug is no longer a problem in the e-50 and higher.

Do you know if this is a hardware problem, or can the E-20's firmware be upgraded (if it's a firmware related issue)
I've searched the net trying to find that, but no luck.

-kwag

[FulciLives]

Most people will not notice or care that the video made by the e-30 and below are lighter than the originals. I spoke to a tech at Panasonic who states that the black level bug is no longer a problem in the e-50 and higher.

Do you know if this is a hardware problem, or can the E-20's firmware be upgraded (if it's a firmware related issue)
I've searched the net trying to find that, but no luck.

-kwag

This was a BIG issue over at the AVS FORUM board and Panasonic would not admit that there was a problem until GUESS WHAT ... the DMR-E50 came out and now they admit that it is correct. I've followed most of the threads on this over at the avs forum board and it does not appear that it can be fixed with firmware for Panasonic never released one. Might be worth checking in with them though about the issue.

Also please note that the DVD-R will look normal when played back on the original recorder ... only when you play it back on another DVD player does the difference become apparent ... but again not all DVD players show the difference.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Barnabas]

Most people will not notice or care that the video made by the e-30 and below are lighter than the originals. I spoke to a tech at Panasonic who states that the black level bug is no longer a problem in the e-50 and higher.

Do you know if this is a hardware problem, or can the E-20's firmware be upgraded (if it's a firmware related issue)
I've searched the net trying to find that, but no luck.

-kwag

Did you ever find any firmware for this or any other Panasonic recorder?

[kwag]

Did you ever find any firmware for this or any other Panasonic recorder?

No, and I think the complete DMR series is not firmware upgradeable. However, I just recently bought the DMR-E80H, because it has all the features of the E20 plus progressive output, and I can record 106 hours, because the E80 has a hard drive. I've made several tests with the E20 and the E80, and as far as quality, they are identical. It's the same internal TBC on both machines. About the "lighter" issue, I don't know, because I can't really tell the difference between the E-20 and the E80

-kwag

[ejai]

To test the lightness and darkness issue you must record something using both machines and then play them back on a seperate dvd player (not the recorders you recorded them with).

You should see a difference, the e20 will be lighter.

ej