which tv card is the best?

[xsbs52x]

i am interested in buying a new tv tuner card. i want something that will give me a nice picture while watching tv. i want something that can do mpeg1/mpeg2 AND raw avi capture. i want an svideo in. i dont really care if the card has a radio tuner, but that would be nice. the only card i have seen that can do all that is the hauppauge wintv pvr pci model 880. i have been leaning toward this card but i was wondering if any one could suggest another one. also, what is your prefferred company for tv cards? thanks.

[Ufit]

Ive got ASUS TV Tuner and havent seen better image quality.
It is 10bit newest technology so it may not work with bt8xx old soft.
But works with all the most popular progs WinDVR, PowerVCR, iuVCR
VirtVCR, VirtualDub. Newer had hardware problems with it.
I recommend for good quality capture.

Ufit

[xsbs52x]

does the ASUS tuner card do both raw avi capture and mpeg1/mpeg2 capture? i saw that it does mpeg1 and 2 on their website but it didnt mention anything about avi. also, it didnt seem to have s video input. can you tell me if it does those things? also i did not see any price on the web site. how much does one cost?

[txpharoah]

What you want is an ATI ALL IN WONDER RADEON.

[xsbs52x]

but does the ati all in wonder radeon do both mpeg1/2 and raw avi captures?

[txpharoah]

but does the ati all in wonder radeon do both mpeg1/2 and raw avi captures?

MPEG1, MPEG2, RAW AVI, AVI with Codecs (MJPEG, Divx, Huffy), WMV, and I think that's about it.

The 7500 cards are about $125. The 9x00 cards are anywhere from $200-400.

[xsbs52x]

does it have s video input? does it have a yellow rca jack input? how does the image quality of the all in wonder compare to the hauppauge? from what i understand, the hauppauge wintv pvr is really meant for capturing video...what about the all in wonder? judging by the name "all in wonder" it sounds as thought that card does other things besides being a tv tuner....is that true? what makes you think the all in wonder is better than the hauppauge card? after all, hauppauge is the kind of tv tuners.

[txpharoah]

does it have s video input? does it have a yellow rca jack input? how does the image quality of the all in wonder compare to the hauppauge? from what i understand, the hauppauge wintv pvr is really meant for capturing video...what about the all in wonder? judging by the name "all in wonder" it sounds as thought that card does other things besides being a tv tuner....is that true? what makes you think the all in wonder is better than the hauppauge card? after all, hauppauge is the kind of tv tuners.

ATI All In Wonder took three great products, the Radeon graphics boards and the tv tuners and the video capture, and put them together on one monster-sized, powerful board. It is not "harmed" because of it, regardless of the useless prattle you may hear from those that have never used one.

The ATI AIW Radeons have DV-I (AGP model) with VGA adapters, VGA (for PCI models), s-video (in and out), and RCA (in and out). The audio uses an internal AUX channel, wired to your soundcard. Any decent soundcard will work, though SoundBlaster is known to be the best combo with ATI cards.

The ATI cards were designed to capture and work better than your dual-card setup (as PCI capture devices must still cooperate with the AGP/PCI video card, and it's not always easy).

The Hauppauge output is not always accepted as standard video, and the proprietary software is not that great. The ATI software works well, but even if you decide you hate it, you can use other software in its place. The same cannot be said about the Hauppauge.

The ATI AIW Radeons use hardware-assisted MPEG encoding (based on Ligos GoMotion), not pure software or pure hardware, but any decent CPU can handle the load (maybe 25%, up to 50% if you use heavy realtime filtering).

Outside of a Matrox or a Canopus dvstorm, this is my card of choice. It has power, and it does whatever I want.

[xsbs52x]

you said it is a video card also. i have a geforce 2. if i prefer to use my geforce2 instead of the integrated graphics card, would i be able to do that? or is the all in wonders graphics card better? also i have an integrated sound card so would that still work with the card? you said a sound blaster is prefferred so im wondering if mine will still be able to do it. also, im not sure what you mean by you cant use other software with hauppauge. do you mean if i wanted to watch tv using other software, i could do it with the all in wonder but not with the hauppauge?
isnt it true that the hauppauge wintv pvr pci card also uses hardware assisted mpeg encoding?

i was wondering if you knew a website that would show me a picture of the card itself and all of its inputs and outputs. i would like to see how they crammed all of those ports in there.

considering what i am looking for (mpeg1/2 and avi capture, s vid input, rca input, high quality picture, price range of not more than $300 dollars), can you suggest which model would be best for me?

by the way i have a 1.6 ghz P4 so that should be fast enough for this, right?

[xsbs52x]

anyone?

[gmatov]

xsbs,
I would assume that ati.com would be the site to go to, and enter the device you are interested in.
txpharoah,
Is it really the best card? I mean, it is a 300 buck card(I know, you get what you pay for). I am playing withn an MSI card, haven't figured out whether it is the card or if I have glitches in my 'puter. Caps from tape are not as good as I expected, but the source is less than perfect. ( My youngest's Wedding video, not a pirated DVD or something. We have other means to get DVD material than watching and taping.)
It does, however, have all the settings for Full DVD down to MPEG4. But, I'm getting glitches, stop action, voice in sync, but stutter steps.
I would sure like to know if it is the card or my system.

[jdegelde]

I have a pinnacle pctv studio card and it sucks ass. I used to have an ati card which had excellent quality but there was a conflict between it and my new nvidia video card ( coincidence Huh) anyway I would steer clear of pinnacle products in this area (in any area for that matter) and go with the ati all in wonder package.

[txpharoah]

@xsbs52x
Ditch the old GX2 card. The ATI, especially newer 9x00 ones, are better. The onboard sound will probably cause you headaches, no matter which card you go for. A cheap SB card is only $30.

@gmatov
Is the ATI better? Well, could be. But it may be the system. Or worse, a combination of factors. The best you can do is try it. Buy a card from a local store (that doesn't charge restock fees on returns), and slap one in and try it out.

And be dirty about it too. If it works, good. But feel free to take the ATI card back to the store it came from if you find a better deal online. Don't tell them it's bad if they ask, just that you decided video was too hard, or something that doesn't make them think the card is junk. You'd only be lying to a guy that makes $5 an hour and plays video games in his spare time. So what?

Honestly, from the errors you describe, it sounds like dropped frames.

[xsbs52x]

i have been to ati.com many times and their site does not give me all of the info im looking for. txpharoah seems to know his stuff so id rather ask him for more specific details about it than searching for hours and hours for what i need to know. txpharoah: when u say gx2 do u mean my geforce2? and by the way the onboard sound is not causing any problems with the hauppauge i have now and its like 4 or 5 years old.

[gmatov]

XS,
Of course tx knows his stuff. I wouldn't pose him a ? if I thought he didn't.
However, I don't know how he's going to answer you on the in/outputs of the card w/out showing you a pic.
I went to ATI a while ago, found the card, and am confused myself, as to the connectors. The pic shows video in, video out, cable connector, DVI-I out.
Further in the manual (find it here: http://mirror.ati.com/support/manualpdf/AW9000Pr.pdf )
it shows a variety of adapters, some of which I assume come with it, some they tell you to buy. This PDF is the 9000 manual.
Next time you hit one of the stores, pick up a box, I think the card is shown on the back. I remember looking at one and wondering what the hell kinda cabling is this? "Course, with the flexible cable, you can at least see what port you're trying to connect to without pulling the machine away from the wall and standing on your head.
Tex, you've pret'near got me convinced to buy one. The VooDoo 3000 in my main box is 4 years old or so, only 16 meg, bought it for the TV out. Tried an ATI, 128 or something, locked my machine up tight, got this instead. The manual above says get rid of some drivers, install some others. Pretty sure the paperwork with the ATI didn't tell me that, but I don't read manuals much, either, except as a last resort. Gonna have to give one a try, if I can find one reasonable (read: cheap).

[bpjenn]

I highly recommend the ATI All-in-Wonder Radeon too. I been using these cards for many years. I've tried many of the others and always go back to the All-in-Wonder-nothing beats them. Don't waste your money on anything else.

[txpharoah]

@ gmatov and xsbs52x ... in response to both this thread and some PMs...

Just looking at the back of the card itself, you see a "VIDEO IN" and "VIDEO OUT" and either a DV-I (on AGP) or VGA (for PCI) cables.

Now that's misleading... The VIDEO IN and VIDEO OUT are actually slots for bundled cables.

The VIDEO IN is for the purple breakout box, which has s-video and all 3 RCA cables (left/right audio and video).

The VIDEO OUT is for the bundled cables about a foot long. It has SPDIF (as an RCA), stereo mini out, s-video out, and RCA video out. You can either split the SPDIF or the stereo mini back into stereo RCA, but you'll have to buy that converted wire yourself for about $5 from Radio Shack.

You should ALWAYS connect your ATI card to the audio card internally. Don't follow the instruction and plugin the output into the soundcard input. You are wasting a cable and mucking up dual-output options. Go buy a AUX audio cable for all of $1 at a computer parts store. It's the same cable used between your CD player and soundcard internally. I stole mine from there, as I never listen to CD audio (MP3 anyone?).

Now on to options. You've got 3 VERSIONS of what you can buy. Retail, OEM Full, and OEM Card-Only. My 7200 was retail back in 2001. My 7500 was OEM Full early this year. The retail and OEM Full all come with the wires needed.

On eBay, the seller pcdirectsource routinely sells older ATI AIW Radeon cards. This auction here shows both of these cables on either side of the card. I've sent several people to him in the past. FYI: That's probably a 7200 card, not a "7000". Not bad if you want to save a few bucks, but again, the AGP is better and you get what you pay for.

You MUST use the ATI graphics card when capturing from it. So no hybrid cards. Use your other card as a secondary and switch monitors if you've got to do it that badly. Or get two monitors and using the functions of the OS, run multiple displays. You can even use a tv monitor as a dual display, but I've not gotten than to work for me yet. You can use it as a sole display, and record digital out to VHS or pay it on the tv (that's how I use the ATI Tivo function for football games, rigged to a VCR with a coax running from the office to the living room).

And the ATI AIW Radeons use hybrid hardware-assisted MPEG encoding based off Ligos GoMotion used in PVR (as in not FULL software or FULL hardware). Only the MMC takes advantage of this. The new 9800 has more MPEG hardware in it, making it more expensive. You'll get what you pay for. But I have the 7200 and 7500 cards, and I'm happy with them. No need for the 9800, at least to me. I'd jump to a Matrox RTX100 or Canopus MPEG Pro MVR before I'd go to the 9800.

It can also capture raw AVI and codec-based formats like HuffyUV, MJPEG, Divx, and WMV.

I think that covers it, as well as a few questions I thought would be next... anything else you want to know about the ATI card?

As far as GX2, yes, for some reason GX was used somewhere as an abbreviation for GeForce, and it stuck with me. And on the onboard soundcard functioning fine with your Hauppauge, it may just be your soundcard is better than the typical VIA POS these days. What is it exactly? It may just be a better card, or it may be that you got lucky, or it may be you've just not noticed it yet if it does cause problems.

[Metaluna]

you said it is a video card also. i have a geforce 2. if i prefer to use my geforce2 instead of the integrated graphics card, would i be able to do that? or is the all in wonders graphics card better?

[...]

i was wondering if you knew a website that would show me a picture of the card itself and all of its inputs and outputs. i would like to see how they crammed all of those ports in there.

considering what i am looking for (mpeg1/2 and avi capture, s vid input, rca input, high quality picture, price range of not more than $300 dollars), can you suggest which model would be best for me?

The AIW cards fit in your AGP slot so you wouldn't be able to use the geforce 2 alongside it. They do also have graphics on board, which are very high quality. Depending on how much you want to spend, you can get one that has much better graphics than a geforce 2 (which I think would be about equivalent to an All-in-Wonder 7500 or so). As for websites with pictures, try http://www.Newegg.com. They always have some good product photos of everything they sell. They actually take pictures of the boards themselves so you can see all the connectors, etc.

For example, for $365 you can get an All-In-Wonder 9700 Pro from Newegg, which will also be one of the fastest 3D graphics cards available. You are mostly paying for the 3D graphics though. I don't know if the video capabilities are significantly better than, say, an AIW 7500, which is $126 from the same source.

[txpharoah]

The AIW cards fit in your AGP slot so you wouldn't be able to use the geforce 2 alongside it.

The older ATI AIW 7200 card are PCI too. I don't suggest it, but keeping the GX2 card and adding a ATI 7200 is possible.

POSSIBLE! NOT SUGGESTED!

You'd be happier just replacing it. Headaches otherwise. And again, the ATI is probably better if not the same.

[gmatov]

txpharoah,
So, what's your recommendation? I've been to Pricewatch, and I'm seeing the 9000 Pro for say 60 bucks and up. Now, some categories say "AIW", others don't. Are they, actually, AIWs, or not? Is the 9000 series any good, or was it a transition piece with problems?
At those prices I'd be willing to try one. I'd have to go a little more, however, as I very rarely buy OEM. I've benn shat on too often, buying things in a static bag. I'd prefer the 3 year mfg's warranty on this card, even at the relatively low prices.
BTW, the same is listed at BB for 200.
Also, some are listed at 200Mhz DDRRAM, some as 275. Well, w/out going back, maybe the 200 was SDRAM. As I'm not a gamer (Solitaire is about the extent of it ) will the faster RAM help in capture? I don't know whether on board RAM is even involved.
If you have the time, might you take a gander, see which would be the best buy on PWatch?
Oh, yes. The PDF I referred to above shows all the breakout boxes. This manual doesn't show the 4 pin connector from the PSU, as one of the others did. I'm assuming the one I did see had a power connector for the onboard cooling fan.

[FulciLives]

txpharoah,
So, what's your recommendation? I've been to Pricewatch, and I'm seeing the 9000 Pro for say 60 bucks and up. Now, some categories say "AIW", others don't. Are they, actually, AIWs, or not? Is the 9000 series any good, or was it a transition piece with problems?

Not all ATI cards are AIW. They still make just regular video cards as well as tuner only cards as well as the AIW cards. So the $60 9000 Pro you saw is probably not an AIW unless it said so but damn that sure seems like a cheap price for an All-In-Wonder card.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[txpharoah]

All cards since the 7200 have been DDR RAM. Mine both have 32MD DDR. I think more would help, but no more than 64MB. The rest is wasted on captures. It's for video games. My gaming experience is also limited to solitaire and maybe an online game like Bejeweled (a kind of Tetris).

I'd say get either the cheapest (AGP 7200/7500) or the best (9800). Whatever it is, makes sure it is an ATI ALL IN WONDER RADEON. Those are the key words.

The 9000 chips for capturing are supposed to be better, but I haven't seen it. Only the 9800 is truly any better, dropping CPU load altogether by about half (though my demo was on a faster system, so it may have been less of a drop than that).

Between 7200 and 9700, you're only really paying for the graphics card. The capturing hardware is pretty much the same. The only reason I have a 7500 is because I couldn't find a 7200 in stock at the time, and I was impatient. Outside of the numbers on the box, and the driver ID in the control panels, it's the same card to me.

If you think more RAM may help, maybe go for 8500 or higher, but I don't see too much difference.

[gmatov]

Fulci,
Yeah, the price is low, but I'm getting a headache, clickin', readin', viewing, and the specs aren't what the ATI site shows. They're showing me dual head, but single S-video, and the PDFs I viewed show 2 S-videos, in and out, some making no mention of a breakout box. I'm not done looking, yet. If I find one at my price, I'll let you know.

Tex,
Hey, I asked you about the RAM, I've got no idea. 64's enough, fine, thanks.
Another thing is the OEMs seem to be giving a 3 year warranty, as does the boxed version. As the boxed is 50 or so higher, I'm wondering if the OEM comes with the BO boxes.
I'll look for a 72-7500 series. Think it will be more than adequate.
Thanks, again.

[cyclejim]

@ gmatov and xsbs52x ... in response to both this thread and some PMs...

You should ALWAYS connect your ATI card to the audio card internally. Don't follow the instruction and plugin the output into the soundcard input. You are wasting a cable and mucking up dual-output options. Go buy a AUX audio cable for all of $1 at a computer parts store. It's the same cable used between your CD player and soundcard internally. I stole mine from there, as I never listen to CD audio (MP3 anyone?).

.

If you are using Windows XP, you may not need to connect a cable at all internally. XP sends digital audio over the PCI bus. For example, I can play CDs in my CD Rom drive without any internal (or external) cables attached to my sound card and I get digital audio. I do not know if this would work the same for the ALL In Wonder captures but its worth trying.

[txpharoah]

If you are using Windows XP, you may not need to connect a cable at all internally. XP sends digital audio over the PCI bus. For example, I can play CDs in my CD Rom drive without any internal (or external) cables attached to my sound card and I get digital audio. I do not know if this would work the same for the ALL In Wonder captures but its worth trying.

I do the same thing with my music CDs (on the odd time I actually have one) - remember I took my AUX cable away from it. But no, that won't work for the ATI card. You need to use the cable I suggested, or do what the book says (not the best compared to what I've said to do).

[xsbs52x]

you keep saying that the 7200 and the 7500 and all those up to but excluding the 9800 are the same. thats not entirely true. the one that i have my eye on is the 8500DV. it has 2 firewire ports on it. the only major differences between the cards are their inputs and outputs. it seems like all of the AIWs have mpeg1/2 and avi support.

by this point i realize that getting rid of my "GX2" is the way to go, but im wondering if it is worth paying 200 bucks on cdw.com for it just for firewire (i dont have any firewire stuff, but it could come in handy in the future and people i know have firewire stuff and i could help them with it) and simplicityof it. im not worried about the preformance of the graphics card, most of the AIWs are obviously better then the GX2, plus that doesnt even matter because i too play solitare and thats about it.

You should ALWAYS connect your ATI card to the audio card internally. Don't follow the instruction and plugin the output into the soundcard input. You are wasting a cable and mucking up dual-output options. Go buy a AUX audio cable for all of $1 at a computer parts store. It's the same cable used between your CD player and soundcard internally. I stole mine from there, as I never listen to CD audio (MP3 anyone?).

OT: I am glad I saw your post. When I installed my AIW 7500 last week, I saw the port, and I thought hummmm should I hook it up to my sound card? I did not because it did not say it in the manual... Now I see a one line blurb about it in the manual... So I am going to crak it open and change it. Now what do you mean by "mucking up dual-output options"?

BTW I really bought my card pretty much based on your posts only... My first 2 projects went great, the last one is giving me problems, but that's because I am doing something wrong...

[txpharoah]

Now what do you mean by "mucking up dual-output options"?

The outside connection can cause sync issues too, but I forgot to say it earlier.

If done properly, you can capture AND output to tv at the same time. To the common user, it serves no purpose. To those of us that may make VHS copies AND view realtime on the tv monitor AND capture all at once ALL at the same, keeping your wires open is a bonus. Using the audio out cable for capturing would prevent a realtime preview on a tv and/or VCR.

At any rate, less wires, and less chance of sync issues. My second card's output bundle is an a box of unused computer parts. I never use the secondary system for output, just capture and playback.

Keep looking at lordsmurf.com. He's supposed to be coming out with a new site dedicated to MPEG capturing and video/audio restoration, along with a whole bunch of other stuff he was telling me about. It'll support the ATI cards the most, though he said he'll use PowerVCR for non-ATI cards. At any rate, I've helped him when asked, and it should be good when done - what I provided wasn't always simple information, that's for sure, so it should be a good site. Maybe that site will help you out on your project, when it's done that is.

[gmatov]

If done properly, you can capture AND output to tv at the same time. To the common user, it serves no purpose. To those of us that may make VHS copies AND view realtime on the tv monitor AND capture all at once ALL at the same, keeping your wires open is a bonus. Using the audio out cable for capturing would prevent a realtime preview on a tv and/or VCR.

Tex,
You can do both at the same time? Watching doesn't count, unless what you are watching is what you are capping.
How do you make a VHS copy and do a capture at the same time?
Sems to me like you are capping both, the VHS and whatever the other source is, be it cable, DVD, whatever. Surely, this overloads the machine?
Unless you are saying you can play a previous capture out to the VCR, and capture a TV program, or whatever, at the same time. I know play back is not so CPU intensive as capturing, so probably feasible.
Since I have separate cards, now, I have thought of playing Out with TV Out, and capping with TV In to the capture card. But, man, that has got to take some resources.

[txpharoah]

You honestly have to see it to know exactly how it is setup and what I'm doing with it. I've got lots of equipment in this room, and lots of options how to wire things together and use it.