DVD+R/W will win the battle (2)

[ferraman]

jbrondum started the thread DVD+R/W will win the battle at:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=166439&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
He wrote:

Hey all,

Not to start a(nother) fight over which is or is not the right standard, but insider information from my neighbor, who is Product Manager at TEAC, tells me that there is no doubt the DVD+R/W will win the battle.
...these are his top 3 points.

1) Cheaper (OEM, Royalty, Production)
2) Faster (The technology behind DVD-R/W, means they can't keep up with the same speed)
3) "Decided" (...among most OEM manufactors)

So there you have it, don't come crying and say you didn't know

And in another post of this thread jbrondum wrote:

My neighbor works for TEAC in Montebello and is
not the Product Manager like I thought, but looking
at his business card; it says Division Manager - Data Storage Products Division
...but like I already said, take it or leave it.

vitualis loked the forum and his end of post was:

I could have stated (and would have) basically exactly the same thing if the original poster claimed that the Teac guy stated that the - format would eventually take over.

The difference is that it is very infrequent that someone starts a thread that is essentially nothing more than a personal opinion dressed up as "fact" for the "-" format stating that it will "win". For some reason, the "+" supports seem to feel obliged to do this repeatedly. IMHO, this is due to marketing/advertising but that is my opinion.

There is obviously no more point in this thread.

Both the "-" and "+" formats are quite good and are mostly equal in functionality. Most probably, neither will "win" and will both be there when the replacement technology comes along.

This thread will be locked.


Well, I'm not a engineer of Pioneer or Philips, but I have an opinion, and I think that I have the right to put in a thread of a "free" forum.
If you blocked a thread of opinions, you should block all the threads.
Do you know what's the word FORUM?
Please, search it in a Dictionary.
Do you know the word debate?
Please, search it in a Dictionary.
Do you know what's the word opinion?
Please, search it in a Dictionary.
Do you know what's the word democracy?
Please, search it in a Dictionary.

In my OPINION, you are blocking the thread you don't want...as the thread don't go up because nobody can write, the thread "disappear" in the next pages of the forum.
It's a good way to manipulate the info.

Well, as I can read the word forum here, I'm going to put my opinion.
(I want to put my opinion in the former thread, but I can't)

I think that all are winners, + and - owners, because +R/-R/+RW/-RW are DVD-Video and -ROM compatible. And the prices are dropping quickly.

But one format will be much more expensive when one format becomes whole dominant, the winner.

DVD+R/+RW is dominating the PC market
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story&doc_id=120651
And DVD-RAM is dominating the CE.

I think that CE is a bigger market, but the people removes its devices in lot of years. On the other hand PC users remove their devices in a little time.
In short time the PC market is more important than CE.
CE in long time is the most important.
Seeing:
http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113

I think that the post of jbrondum is real.

Regards.
ferraman.

[disturbed1]

2 huge flaws in the statement above

2) Faster (The technology behind DVD-R/W, means they can't keep up with the same speed)

DVD-R is already testing 8x burners. Ritek already has a certified 8x disc. Will hit market near year end.

3) "Decided" (...among most OEM manufactors)

Most is not two manufactors. HP and Dell are not the most.


Sony still used DVD-R only drives while they produced their first DVD dual format drives. Sony now includes it's dual drive, it's also a -R drive.

Apple uses DVD-R

Gateway uses DVD-R

IBM uses DVD-R

Out of the six major PC makers, only 2 use only DVD+R. 1 uses both, and 3 use only DVD-R.

Looks like most have decided to use DVD-R.


In the past, brick and mortar stores had a good selection of DVD+R/W media, slim on the DVD-R. After my recent trips to the local stores (Circuit City, Best Buy, CompUSA, Microcenter, Target, Walmart, Sam's Club), they all follow the same trend of stocking a better varity/quantity of DVD-R/W media compared to the current selection of DVD+R/W media. My local stores easily have twice the DVD-R brand selection.

Another fact is that DVD-R media outsells +R combined with +RW media 4 to 1. DVD-RAM out sells DVD+R, and/or DVD+RW media (those are world wide figures).

The article from TWICE is flawed. There was already one correction made ( Long URL ). The current (as of June 26, 2003) dvd recordalbe drive sales leader is Panasonic with 70% or the world wide market.

[vitualis]

In my OPINION, you are blocking the thread you don't want...as the thread don't go up because nobody can write, the thread "disappear" in the next pages of the forum.
It's a good way to manipulate the info.

There is no manipulation of the information. The thread has served it's useful purpose. The original author's opinion has been noted and I did not lock it because I disagreed with it. If I did, I could have locked it at the beginning. It was locked because these threads as always had already degenerated in a flamewar.

As I stated, all useful information on that thread had been already posted and any additional posts were predictably why one tech "sucks" or why somebody else "sucks" believing something, etc.

As for your insinuation of "manipulating" info, this is a bulletin board. Threads have a natural atresion. One could equally argue that you are manipulating the forum by putting this topic back up to the top. Obviously, this is a silly arguement.

Otherwise, please read the AUP here: https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124514

But one format will be much more expensive when one format becomes whole dominant, the winner.

This is not fact. This is simply your belief and that is fine. As I have highlighted before MemoryStick is still with us despite being slower, far more expensive and bigger than the alternatives. Price (or any other single factor) is not everything. In any case, the + drives and media are hardly much "cheaper" than the - drives and in many cases it is the other way around. Does that mean that "-" drives will win? No.

I have have stated multiple times, I don't think either drive will "win" in a meaningful way.

DVD+R/+RW is dominating the PC market
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story&doc_id=120651
And DVD-RAM is dominating the CE.

I dispute your figures. The DVDRHelp forum poll would seem to indicate otherwise too (-R/W drives are more popular) and most of the audience here are Americans where the + drives are doing supposedly doing quite well.

I think that the post of jbrondum is real.

I don't doubt it is, but I don't agree with his interpretation. I also don't agree with some of his purported facts.

Again my interpretation is that NEITHER drive will "win" in the sense of complete domination of the recordable DVD market BEFORE the replacement tech.

If you have more opinions to post, then go right ahead. However, if you post opinions that happen to be unqualified or post erroneous facts, don't be surprised if someone else corrects you and posts their own opinions / interpretation. If you want a debate, then go right ahead. Many members have an interest in this area. If you want a democracy, then (you live in the US right?) perhaps you should have a look at your own country's political processes first... ). In any case, "freedom of speech" doesn't mean anarchy and it doesn't mean that you can say anything and get away with it.

However, if this thread develops into another flamewar, don't hesitate for a moment that either I or one of the other moderators will lock this thread.

P.S. I note that in your profile, that of the two posts you have made, both have been on RESTARTING pro +R/RW flamewar threads. I will ignore that for now and assume that it simply means that you don't understand what a flamewar is. I suggest that you take a dose of your own medicine and search for the meaning of flamewar. I have taken the liberty of doing the search for you and there is a definition here: http://www.walthowe.com/glossary/f.html

Regards.

[flip69]

What a stupid post.

I use accu -r's. Have burned over 500 with no problems.

[KDH]

Most is not two manufactors. HP and Dell are not the most.


Sony still used DVD-R only drives while they produced their first DVD dual format drives. Sony now includes it's dual drive, it's also a -R drive.

Apple uses DVD-R

Gateway uses DVD-R

IBM uses DVD-R

Out of the six major PC makers, only 2 use only DVD+R. 1 uses both, and 3 use only DVD-R.

Looks like most have decided to use DVD-R.


Another fact is that DVD-R media outsells +R combined with +RW media 4 to 1. DVD-RAM out sells DVD+R, and/or DVD+RW media (those are world wide figures).

The current (as of June 26, 2003) dvd recordalbe drive sales leader is Panasonic with 70% or the world wide market.

Any chance of some URLs for the above statistics/facts??
Worldwide recordable drive figures as of 26 June 2003 would be a good start!

The worlds PC sales in the first quarter of 2003 are at

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jhtml?containerId=pr2003_04_17_152306

showing that in fact only IBM in the top 5 ship desktops with DVD-R drives(Toshiba are wholly producing notebooks with very few DVDR drives at present in this market)
Dell and HP/Compaq have a huge market share both in USA(and ARE THE MOSTat 51.3%!) and worldwide(33.1%).Fujitsu Siemens also fit +RW only drives to their PC's

So most do use +RW?

Gateways sales performance is very poor
"Gateway – With seasonally weak consumer purchases in the first quarter, Gateway continued to suffer from aggressive price competition in the U.S. market. While the company managed growth of 3% in the fourth quarter, shipments once again declined by nearly 22% year-on-year. The company has closed stores and faced layoffs to cut expenses, but continues to lose ground. "

Apple I believe only have about 4% of the US market(sorry I can't provide a URL for this "Fact"-maybe someone could show us?)


KDH

[KDH]

I dispute your figures. The DVDRHelp forum poll would seem to indicate otherwise too (-R/W drives are more popular) and most of the audience here are Americans where the + drives are doing supposedly doing quite well.

Are 660 votes on this forum more statistically relevant than the resources and methods of NPDTechworld ( www.npdtechworld.com ) ??

CDFreaks are currently conducting a new poll that is following "which PC drive you most recently purchased" which will possibly provide a much better idea of what the current market is, rather than show the historic lead that -RW will have as they have been around longer?

Early days for this poll-at the moment- only 44 votes.Shows CDR drives are still be purchased in greater numbers than dvdr drives.

see
http://www.cdfreaks.com/poll/21

KDH

[dcsos]

OKAY KDH buy your PLUS ONLY DRIVES

The BluRay manufacturers will be supporting MINUS, not PLUS in the BLURAY device

so when you come over with all those PLUS DISCS you BURNED and CAN'T PLAY BACK any MORE
I'll transfer them to MINUS format so you can see them again!

I hope you'd do the same for me If minus fails instead!
http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/bdzs77/

[txpharoah]

Computer sales figures don't mean a thing, as not every single PC shipped from any single company comes equipped with DVD recorders, and the only reason companies like HP and Dell sell so many PCs is because of the corporate/business/university sector, none of which incorporate DVD recorders (or even CD recorders) in the systems.

You would need a full sales report of all DVD recorder sales/production from 2000, worldwide, and without any variables, and without ANY ties to ANY company that produces the recorders. As of now, that does NOT exist.

Why? Because, as of yet, NOBODY CARES! The information makes no difference to anybody. We just know there are THREE formats (-R,-RAM,+R), and they all sell well, so we all continue to use them. (It's no different than Burger King vs McDonald's vs Jack In The Box - all are here to stay, no matter who may have a bigger market share in which location for which audience.)

Ya'll just like to bicker. For no reason.

[KDH]

Computer sales figures don't mean a thing, as not every single PC shipped from any single company comes equipped with DVD recorders, and the only reason companies like HP and Dell sell so many PCs is because of the corporate/business/university sector, none of which incorporate DVD recorders (or even CD recorders) in the systems.

"During February, 19.2 percent of PCs sold at retail came with DVD-recording drives, and the pace is accelerating, according to NPDTechworld. In December, the figure was 12.3 percent and in February 2002 it was 2.25 percent."
taken from
http://news.com.com/2100-1042-995341.html

I agree with much of what you said as the above figure is "sold at retail"

Is NPDTechworld tied to any company?

The number of DVD drives in existence is probably still in -RW favor?
Enthusiasts of DVD recording(and the most likely visitors to this site)are likely to be early adopters with -RW drives?and are likely to continue to use -R?
As txpharoah(I think on another thread) has said before, +RW may prove to be the main "mass market " format.

The fact that Sony published details of their Bluray product on a Japanese site and neglected to mention +RW(which has negligible market share in Japan) is meaningless-( I wasn't telling people to buy + only drives in the thread above-only posting market share data-but I'll take up dcsos's offer if I can't use DVD+R in Bluray!)

KDH

[txpharoah]

As txpharoah(I think on another thread) has said before, +RW may prove to be the main "mass market " format.

Yeah, that's becoming the consumer format in the U.S. But it is far from being the "winning run" or "final touchdown" in this supposed war. It's just the audience of that format. So consumers see more of it because of marketing.

Your tyical DVD+R buyer is the normal "Ma and Pa Kettle and family" or the "non-video" or the "younger" user. They market a DVD+R device sort of like AOL markets the Internet. Most hobbyists and business and pros tend to buy the -R format because of compatibility issues, no matter how small and ignore the marketing (as we ID it for what it is - marketing).

The +R marketing reminds me of Chevy and Ford. Not sure of where they stand now, but I do remember back when Ford advertised ALL THE TIME in every medium, yet Chevy sold more and was the truck of choice. It doesn't mean one outsold the other or killed off the other, as both still exist. But it serves as a good example of the marketing, and potential (meaning not yet happened) failings of such marketing tactics (being the anti-format).

[bugster]

LoL.

I really don't understand why people start these format war threads, or why people participate in them (including me!), unless of course its just for the sake of a good argument and an excuse to let of some steam.

No-one knows for certain which format will 'win', or even if there will ever be a clear cut 'winner'. All us mere mortals can do is make our purchase based on what little truth we can extract from the marketing and statistics thrown around by those with a vested financial interest in this busines. Technical superiority doesn't come into it.

We won't know who the 'winner' is until all the 'losers' have droppped out of the race.

[Northstar]

Well im going to be buying a multidrive soon so makes no difference to me who wins or who dosent win.

I have quite a few blank + dvds laying about at home so you can be certain i'll just be using the + side at first, i will purchase some blank 'minus' dvds too so i'll be able to test myself first hand which is the 'better' format.

As for the + side i have never had a problem with it so am swayed towards that side till i do a more through test with backing up my ps2 stuff to both formats and see which is the better.

All in all i wont care too much as i'll have the best of both worlds.

PS By the way i sold my older Richo 2.4x + only drive cause im upgrading to 4x multi (when the place im buying my drive from have some in stock that is).

[tompika]

The BluRay manufacturers will be supporting MINUS, not PLUS in the BLURAY device

so when you come over with all those PLUS DISCS you BURNED and CAN'T PLAY BACK any MORE
I'll transfer them to MINUS format so you can see them again!

Are you sure dcsos? You must know lot about that.
I would like to ask you how many players you have tested with properly burned plus media?

My plus burner is not supposed to play minus disc. But i does.
My DVD-ROM player is not supposed to play plus media. Plays anything.
My standalone couldn`t play RW. It does with the booktype changed.
My neighbor`s old player couldn`t read any writable media till I gave him the DVD+R/Ws that I always make as DVD-ROM.

I made four test disc (DVD+R/W) Two of them have DVD-ROM booktype the others are plain. I always carry them in my laptop case and when I get the chance I try to play them on settop players in different stores.
The ones have DVD-ROM booktype always delivered so far.

This BLU-RAY-DONT-PLAY-NOTHING-BUT-MINUS is just your idea.
I think you and that Danish guy (started the last war thread) make a really good couple to argue.
These are firsthand experiences, I don`t care about any Wall Street market BS.

And I`m going to drink a beer now.....

[atb]

ANY MOD out there? please lock this thread!

WE ALL KNOW DUAL-FORMAT or MULTI-FORMAT will win the WAR! NOR the DVD+R or DVD-R even DVD-RAM single format could win!


STOP POSTING THIS KIND OF TOPPIC THAT WASTE FORUM'S RESOURCE!!!

[CloudBurst]

Personally I do not understand what this whole war thing is about...DVD+RW only has a slight advantage in data backup (not movies but rather using it like a seperate "partition" (Mt. Ranier?)). Being as this is the case the playing field is even for what people do in this forum...i.e movie editing/backing up. So here is a clue...the format that will win this "war" is the format that sells the cheapest media on average. So basically everyone is just wasting their breath...wow that was just 2 minutes of my life completely wasted... :P

[dcsos]

I just had to laugh because I see so much anger in your post

Are you sure dcsos? You must know lot about that.
I would like to ask you how many players you have tested with properly burned plus media?

At least one more than you is my answer, tho'
your first point i take issue withis the idea of "properly burned media"
I only burn media properly (I hope)....otherwise toss the disc out..

Second, Just one blu-ray from JAPAN in NEW YORK, the DRIVE I DON'T OWN but saw long enough (tho' it wasn't hooked to the screen at the time) say NO DISC and eject such "properly burned plus media" or what I would call a DVD that I burned.
(I guess I can't call it a DVD cause the "+" makers didn't share their format with the DVD FORUM)

did you even follow the link to the picture of the settop I put it in?

To be honest the sony man said it will support DVD+R by the time we folks get our hands on it..but I was just looking for another way to attack the fella who started this atrocious topic with the idea that one format
or the other was BETTER!!!

[indolikaa]

I am amazed at the amount of intellectual resources that are wasted on these format wars threads. This is more fun that a cheap whore on dollar night!

YOU ARE ALL WRONG. DVD-X WILL WIN THE FORMAT WAR!

I'm sure you haven't heard about this format, but let me give you the skinny. It's supported by an oligarchy of America's most powerful political lobbying force. The DVD-X format is a consortium of the RIAA, MPAA, and the 9th Circuit US Court of Appeals. This revolutionary new format will be adopted in the United States, and shoved down the throats of any country that wishes to continue trade with the United States. We are America. We are the only Superpower. Respect our f*****' authori-ta!

The 'X' in DVD-X stands for Explode. As in, the disc explodes 48 hours after being recorded. If you record copyrighted material, it explodes. If you recorded non-copyrighted material, it explodes anyway. Just what the hell are you doing using your creative juices in the first place?! You're not qualified to produce your own material! That's what Hollywood is for. You know, it's that kind of selfishness that forced Wynona Ryder to cut back on her back waxings. Shame on you!

DVD-X. It's coming. Deal with it.

[tompika]

I only burn media properly

Yes you definitely do

But there is this little difference between yours and mine.
I`m able to change the booktype. And it makes a difference, believe me.
Could you try such disc in your in your beloved blueray, please.
So thank you for your offer but I wont need you to backup my movies as they appeared to be playable in any player so far.

did you even follow the link to the picture of the settop I put it in?

Yes, I did

The BluRay manufacturers will be supporting MINUS, not PLUS in the BLURAY device

...and then...

To be honest the sony man said it will support DVD+R

It`s nice to be HONEST sometimes.

I was just looking for another way to attack the fella

There you go. Why dont you go to the gym instead...

who started this atrocious topic with the idea that one format
or the other was BETTER!!!

...coz we all know these fellas are BULL$HITTING

[Faustus]

+ - Blueray if they burn movies one media you can get for a decent price, or perform the way you want them to perform who really cares.

If plus wins tomarrow heres what I will do.

1. Keep using my - until media gets either had to find or too expensive.
2. Pick up a now ULTRA cheap +RW burner and switch
3. Go right back to being completely content one I find a good cheap media to use with it

Its useless to argue this point, please its not worth the time. Nor the hard feelings it creates. Both burn.

I'm going to lock this topic now, please don't restart it again unless you have something constructive to add to the debate. NOT just to get another shot in.