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  1. Member
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    After bought a A05 and saw, as all, the problems, i thought as most of you that the new firmware in january could solve all our difficulties. I m affraid to have really bad news now.
    Look first that 4 citations.

    Citation 1 :

    After flashing my A04 to firmware 1.33 and finding out they wiped out compatibility with the cheaper media...
    Citation 2 :

    Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news but a lot of people i have spoken to with A05 drives have thye same problem. This is because pioneer in all their wisdom have decided to change the firmware on the new a05 drives so that cheap media cannot be burnt. This is so that disks from dvd-r manufacturers that do not pay royalties to pioneer to use their dvd-r standard do not work. Earlier versions of the A05 are ok but Pioneer recalled a lot of drives so that they could change the firmware.

    Citation 3 :

    Pioneer is aware of a number of disks on the market that do not conform to
    the DVD forum standards for DVD-R disks, Pioneer has never recommended the
    use of these disks and we can not support there use in our drives, We are
    investigation the problems that users are having using the Eproformance
    disks and all other DVD-R disks.
    We have found that a large number of disks that have the incorrect media ID
    codes on them will not work in our drives, this is a fault with the disks.
    Pioneer will be updating the firmware to add new media to the 2x and 4x
    lists within the firmware and we will also be update the firmware to
    improve the usability with correctly made disks.

    Richard Fraser
    Pioneer GB

    Citation 4 :

    they told me that all cheaper dvdr-media isnt gonna work with a05 as intended. that it writes in 2x with unusable result and that only a few cheap dvdr's work and then you are limited to 1x speed

    customer service guy advised me to buy an a04 with firmware 1.31 or buy expensive media


    Comment : It s now clear. The coming A05 firmware has no chance to solve our problem. Do i say my joy when you must know the cheaper and worse DVD-R is already 6£ for 1 1X in France! Who can buy more expensive Pioneer DVD-R at 12£ (1X and 1 only) ???
    Because Pioneer politic i already lost 8 disk.

    I m really affraid to have to install back my Plextor 12 10 32 to save time and money and drop A05 threw the window.
    Imagine if tomorrow Microsoft does the same and make crash your computer if you not use certified drivers?
    Because the only problem is ROYALTIES i m sure most of cheap DVD-R are ok like our CDR but all little companies did not pay Pioneer and i think they have no reason to pay! So Mr Richard Fraser lies, it s not a cheaper media fault.

    I even ask me this commercial choice to "censor" some media is really legal... I hope all victims of Pioneer new way of sell (because we discover that after buy and not before or we would not have bought AO5) can alert all friends, parents who wanted buy a writer for Christmas in time.

    To be clear i m NOT saying not buy Pioneer products BUT WAIT january to see if firmware change the things.
    But i m really affraid it ll be like for the A04 a bad surprise.

    Please post comment and better news if you have some. I need that because i lost all my money in this product
    And excuse me for my bad english (french and learnt german at school).
    Thanks all for this great board.
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  2. Big claims... would you be able to link to the original references?

    Regards.
    Michael Tam
    w: Morsels of Evidence
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  3. Member
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    Ouch i have not keep all but i ll do my best i understand you can need it.

    a) Forum in french (part in english)

    http://forum.rue-montgallet.com/forum2.php3?post=24578&cat=4&config=&interface=&cache=...rash=&subcat=2

    2) In english
    http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/14123

    3) English
    http://forum.firmware-flash.com/viewtopic.php?t=9217

    4) Some citation are coming from site in nederland (part in english). Not remeber well the name but you can find it by research about DVD-R or CDR media.

    5) In english
    http://www.mediaforums.net/forum/index.php

    Hope it help. But i think no secret i what i writed. It s only a selection of facts. I repeat i have nothing against Pioneer. But i m client and you can understand not happy. In France we say that for a merchand "the client is king". In this case , it s not what happen. We re "otage".
    I wait for january... cant say more.
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  4. Thank you...

    As I thought (from reading the English links anyway), it appears to be still in the rumour mill rather than hard policy from Pioneer's "mouth". It will be interesting to see what develops.

    Regards.
    Michael Tam
    w: Morsels of Evidence
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  5. For all those people who have said they dislike the Sony DRU-500a and were going to buy an A05/105 maybe they will change their mind?
    Panasonic DMR-ES45VS, keep those discs a burnin'
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  6. Member
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    I forgot to say i am a registered journalist working in computer press.
    Pioneer must be happy i am certified !
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  7. That dude is whacked, first he says he flashed the a05 with
    1.33 firmware? can't do that....then he starts talking bout
    the a04, thats a really goood drive, i cant say anything bad
    about it.....
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  8. Member
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    No No No
    read again please.
    It s a citation of a man who flashed the firmware of his A04 with the new 1.33 firmware made by Pioneer for A04.

    I know that AO4 works (do i say worked?) well.

    I only want show that problems with the AO5 (cheap media bad burnt) are now coming on the A04 too and by the same way, the firmware.

    If i understand well what i read in several place A04 and AO5 are products with a good hardware and it seems that it s a strategic choice to make AO4 AO5 work bad whith chip media.
    That s all.
    And i hope to be in error when i write that!
    Let s wait january for the answer.
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  9. Член BJ_M's Avatar
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    this bit i see about paying pioneer royalities - according to the people i spoke to at pioneer here, say it is crap and that no disk makers are paying them squat .. and that it was something that was posted on one forum and has now spread ..

    i am just repeating what i was told ..

    anyway back to burning with no problems on 104 's and 105's .
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  10. Member
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    I don't see what the problem is. Pioneer is only saying that it won't support DVD-R manufacturers who fail to comply with the DVD-R forum standards. These DVD-R manufacturers have two choices:
    1) They can comply with the forum standards, or
    2) They can be forced out of business.

    In fact, the sooner that these manufacturers are forced to select either option, the better off we consumers will be. Right now, the entire DVD-R world (and it is appearing that the DVD+R world is also) is "infected" with media that is both cheap and crap.

    (The fact that people in France have to pay 6 funny looking "L" or "E" thingies per disk is not an issue with Pioneer, but rather with their respective governments - have you ever heard the word "revolution"?)

    Although I don't 100% agree with Pioneer's decision to completely lock out the non-complient disks (like NERO's refusal to burn a DVD-Video that is not 100% DVD complient), I understand their reasoning. The closest thing to a royalty that Pioneer requires, is for the disk manufacturer to have passed some kind of quality assurance program to be enabled for 2X+ writes. This not only serves Pioneer's interests, but also the disk manufacturer's and the consumer's interests as well. In the long run, we all benefit.
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  11. Member ejai's Avatar
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    I agree with SLK001, many disks that are cheaply made are giving consumers lots of compatibility problems. Lots of cheap disks are failing to operate properly in different dvd players.

    I have found that using more expensive media such as TDK resolves many of these issues. My dvd players don't lock up, skip while playing and grind to a halt like they did when using some badly made cheap disks.

    I pay more for compliancy and less aggrevation. Pioneer is on the right track.

    ej
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  12. here's my opinion, and it is only an opinion.

    i think (and hope) market competition comes into play here, and it should apply to both media and writer manufacturers.

    if a media manufacturer makes bad media, consumers will start avoiding them in favor of alternatives with better compatibility. this is probably one reason people are always asking what media works with what drive (a04/a05/dru500a etc). there will always be a demand for cheap generic media that works "better" than other cheap generic media, whether or not either of them are fully "dvd-forum compliant".

    if pioneer continues to make drives that is even only perceived to work with fewer media than the sony, consumers will eventually move over to the sony. media standards, though important, may not be the single consideration. the question may not really be what is "compliant", but what can the other company do. why should i buy a drive that works will fewer and more expensive media, when i can get one that can safely work with a wider choice? and for around the same price?

    i believe standards are really important, but we are talking about commodity products here. i think most people are willing for forgo the need to be fully compliant as long as the media works for them. pioneer may insists that media must comply with dvd-forum standards, but as long as there is one other competitor that does not require this constraint, then i think you can easily see market forces favouring the one that apparently "gets the job done", at the right price, of course.

    i think that pioneer has no choice but must try to improve media compatibliity for their writers to remain competitive. the question that i'm wondering is "can they?" maybe firmware upgrades alone cannot address all the media troubles we've seen. well, i'll certainly be pissed
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  13. you are right i cannot find a 2 speed disk that works in the pioneer.

    disks that do not work on my pioneer

    Zero Defex 1x 2x
    Bulkpaq (Green)2x
    vivastar 1x 2x
    Bulk paq (Silver) 1x 2x

    I have found the Bulkpaq (purple) 1x works a treat
    Trax Data
    Fws
    if you know of any other makes please post name of disks

    claire
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  14. I constantly here people whining, "Oh they wont let me burn cheap media , oh tohose bastards Blah blah blah", but when they do get to burn it its nothing but "Burnt video on 5 (insert crappy brand name here) discs and none of them work or the video is choppy" You buy crap media you get crap results, what do you expect! You use some thing that cost more money and get some good result, the money becomes worth the end result. People who buy that cheap crap are basically saying they are alright with mediocre products, so the crap company stays and business to keep selling you crap. NO THANKS!, people like that are the reason there is so much bullshit products in the marketplace. Im not saying that everything with a higher price tag is better. But it is the case in some instances , especially this one. So if you insiston buying crap, then do everyone a favor and dont go crying later wondering whats wrong.
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  15. First of for all of the dink dinks that do not take the time to read, i find it ignorant and rude to talk Sh*t about someones knowledge without even reading and retaining the information he posted above, next i have noted to this forum months ago about pioneers firware issues and royalties, to keep your self up to pace with ALL your firmware issues and not just pioneer go to www.firmware-flash.com , these guys are up to date with specs and data as well as patches and fixes for several firmware issues ie. FLASHING DOWN @ 1.31, i personall was in contact with a pioneer engineer simon, to be exact, when i flashed up to v 1.32 with my ao4/104 and lost support for ritek media, ritek conforms to forum standards, in V 1.31 the had 2x support in ao4, in v 1.32 support was removed completly, and return with problems in v 1.33. This was due to there lack of paying royalties to pioneer not a quality issue, pioneer was fluided with calls in reguards to this and issued support in v 1.33. GO TO THE LINK ABOVE and check out the dvd+-R/RW section and keep up with all the news
    Hasta luego
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  16. Member
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    Some messages need an answer.

    SLK001 said
    1) They can comply with the forum standards, or
    2) They can be forced out of business.
    In fact, the sooner that these manufacturers are forced to select either option, the better off we consumers will be. Right now, the entire DVD-R world (and it is appearing that the DVD+R world is also) is "infected" with media that is both cheap and crap.


    Answer : problem is that Pioneer is judge and part. He suddely give himself th right to select for clients what is good and bad. Why not do the same for CDR, VHS ?
    I feel enough old to buy and use what i want.
    Whith this why no put a filter in drivers which corrupt DVDR if you burn "politically uncorrect stuff". Is only a money question. Pioneer simply gives an expensive protection non request. I think it exist too in Sicilia and remember a good movie with Marlon Brando.
    And the world is not "infected". It called concurrence and you have no obligation to buy those cheap DVDR. Never heard of freedom of choice?
    For the price yes it s around 12 $ (dollars the money of the british colony) in France. A new revolution? yes it s welcome
    A quality assurance program ? ok why not, even we really not need. But it needs to be independant from Pioneer or other compagny.


    Ejay said
    I agree with SLK001, many disks that are cheaply made are giving consumers lots of compatibility problems. Lots of cheap disks are failing to operate properly in different dvd players.

    Answer : Same love of censor in your words. I use only the player of my PC and i m and stay free to use what i want like you. Most DVDR were working perfect before "firmware bad joke". I only want keep the choice. Buy TDK if you want but let my use what i want too as before.

    Noobie said
    i think (and hope) market competition comes into play here, and it should apply to both media and writer manufacturers. ...

    Answer : YOU RIGHT on all but... In reality Pioneer (and other soon i think Sony) do that because they refuse competition and to reduce sell price.
    There was a war on CDR they loose it in the past and most of CDR sold are no-name, low price and working well.
    Computer world is actually in bad health because american market is going bad. DVD writing is the last market where money can be win actually and in 2003.
    In all sectors of economy i ll always be against monopolistic choices, because they always against evolution of products and against client by keeping artificial high prices.
    If they are bad DVD-R people know it quick but actually we re not able to make our choice because the firmware change even kill good one.

    And to finish on what said Thwiipp.
    You saw really to quick wht i and other said. We know that there are bad products on the market. Problem is that they were good even very good DVDR working at 1X or 2X and some of us only need that and not to pay for 1X-4X and suddenly they no more work well at 1X and 2X no because they change but because Pioneer want stop the competition to make money what is the only reason of all.
    Pioneer and a few giants want keep the cake for themselves.

    Pioneer show itself like the defender of the standard it makes me laugh because i know lots of chief-ingeneers in computer market (Pioneer yes!, but Canon, Mitsui, Sony too). It s a jungle and the only law is not respect the client but make money and kill concurrence especially if it breaks prices.
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  17. Member
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    Well, I don't have access to Pioneer's detailed balance sheet, so I can't say whether or not they are charging a royalty. All I can say is what I have heard. And, what would they be charging a royalty for? They are only a member of the DVD Forum and NOT the owner of the thing. Is it to "extort" money from vendors so that their media can be burned? I don't think so - Sony, Maxell, TDK, Mitsui, Mitsubishi Chemical Corp, Taiyo Yuden, et. al., would not stand still for this type of "business practice", which would doom Pioneer to only burning their own product - which would condemn them to failure.

    Are the "requirements" to be listed as a 2X product fair? I don't know the answer to this one, either, since I haven't seen the documentation. I do know, however, that every 2X disk that I have tried to burn, burned flawlessly (and played flawlessly).

    Is Ritek media being maligned? I don't know this either - all I know is that this board is full of complaints about this media.

    I would be upset if I had to pay $12 for my media and I only got coasters, so I understand your anger. (BTW, we haven't been an English colony for approximately 200 years!) As for revolution, I would enjoy watching the French people overthrow their current socialist government and restoring a free republic!
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  18. I agree with mage813. Pioneer cannot be justified. They allowed to burn Ritek before. That means Ritek has enough quality for pioneer writer and now they removed Ritek because Ritek didn't pay for royalty? Is this royalty for using DVD-R format or allowing the media in the list of pioneer writer?
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  19. what is this post based on i only see 1 post about someone saying what media is not working.

    I have a A05 and cheap media is working on 2 speed.
    i use princo
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  20. pioneer can do whatever they want, we customers cannot really prevent them from crippling their writers to fail on generic media. however, if competitors (such as sony, liteon, etc) start making drives that do better than pioneer's, i don't see how it can sustain this practice and still retain market leadership in the coming months.

    the sony dru500a has actually improved compatibility with generic media with their latest 1.0f firmware, i guess after much whining from customers. i hope it is a matter of time before pioneer follows suit.

    ultimately, people can always choose to buy expensive media to guarantee compatibility with whatever writer they opt to go with. but that is not the key issue here. if one believes that there will always be a good demand for generic media, then the winner will be the drive that works better with generic media. not all generic media is bad, and not all users want to play their dvd-rs on dvd players.

    i think the key here is what alternatives consumers have, in terms of both media and writers. but if all the competing companies collude to lock out certain media manufacturers, then we don't really have alternatives.. i doubt that is the current situation in this case.

    mage813, by concurrence, i assume you mean competition?
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  21. SLK said:

    (BTW, we haven't been an English colony for approximately 200 years!) As for revolution, I would enjoy watching the French people overthrow their current socialist government and restoring a free republic!
    SLK,

    Right wing President Jacques Chirac of the RPR party (not a socialist) has been in power in France since 1995. Since the election this year, the assembly nationale is also controlled by the right wing parties.

    To whose comments were you replying anyways?
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  22. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Thwiipp
    I constantly here people whining, "Oh they wont let me burn cheap media , oh tohose bastards Blah blah blah", but when they do get to burn it its nothing but "Burnt video on 5 (insert crappy brand name here) discs and none of them work or the video is choppy" You buy crap media you get crap results, what do you expect!
    Couldn't of said it better.

    I think one valid point is being missed here, no one is saying we should pay more for a disk if a lesser priced one works. The problem some of us are having is dvd player compatiblility. I found many problems with disks that I recorded using cheaper generic media. Yet when I switched to TDK every disk works fine on all the players that were giving me trouble.

    This alone was my reason for changing brands. Burning a disk was fine, playing it back was the problem. Also one of the earlier posts had stated that they used their computer to play back DVD-rs and have no problems with compatibility. That is great, but why should I be limited to my computer to view the disk that should be capable of being played in a standalone dvd player? Most people use standard dvd players not computer monitors for viewing movies. 8)
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  23. I think I may be the only person in this thread to praise Pioneer for what they are doing. But then, I've never been somebody to buy cheap media even for my CDR's. I use Kodak (still got some good GOLD 4X babies left), Taiyo Y and Mitsui. For my Pioneer A04 writer, I use mostly Verbatim DVD-R media.

    Look guys, DVD-R media has much smaller pits and extremely tight tolerances. Sh*t, what you could get away with on CDR isn't as easy with DVD-R media. Pioneer is just preventing headaches. They don't want a customer to call up and say his crappy Pioneer DVD writer can't burn on some cheap media that "Joe Bob" just bought - without massive errors. Pioneer really doesn't want to deal with people calling their burner crappy when in fact its the media that is crap. But in turn, they will take a little heat from users who do indeed want to try to get away with using the crap media. They are protecting you from yourself, even if you don't want their "protection."

    I can't speak to any validity regarding the "royalty" issue, but if you just look at CDR media as an analogy, you'll see the better CDR brands cost more than the Maxells and Riteks of the world too. It's very possible that better DVD-R media is simply more expensive to manufacture.

    I personally think its the best thing in the world to get rid of the crappy media. Burning at 1X is easy. 2X and 4X, while maintaining maximum reliability on DVD-R media, is quite a feat so I've read. That's the equivalent of 16-24X in the CDR world. Now, add a smaller laser on top of it.... You get the idea.

    [Rant off/]

    Robert
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  24. Member
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    Some corrections of my word (again sorry for my poor english).
    By "concurrence" i of course mean "competition".

    Hehehehe sorry for the joke about the colony but i saw some provocation in message.

    SLK your new post was great.

    A friend working in great company of PC building (i dont give name but like HP, Dell you see) just said me they have a firmware 1.10 Pioneer for AO5 !!!!I ll see that and confirm, i m really surprise and asking me if it s not error.

    For Kodak i ll be happy to have enough money to buy that. I think they around 20 $ for 1 DVD-R. And i think that if a marchand of DVD writer choose to select and limit the media which work with its product he had to say it clearly and to communicate about that. It s not fun to discover that after when money is lost.

    out subject.... but answer to message.
    Well as french i think our governement is more communist than socialist (60%+ of money you win goes to state threw taxes, and no pluralism of information/news on radio or TV) and if i remember well Communist party called to vote Chirac at last election (main daughter of President is trotskyst!!! yes in 2002).
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  25. Originally Posted by mage813
    A friend working in great company of PC building (i dont give name but like HP, Dell you see) just said me they have a firmware 1.10 Pioneer for AO5 !!!!I ll see that and confirm, i m really surprise and asking me if it s not error.
    any updates on your friend's new firmware? we are all anxiously waiting, like this
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  26. Originally Posted by Wetmonkey
    First of for all of the dink dinks that do not take the time to read, i find it ignorant and rude to talk Sh*t about someones knowledge without even reading and retaining the information he posted above, next i have noted to this forum months ago about pioneers firware issues and royalties, to keep your self up to pace with ALL your firmware issues and not just pioneer go to www.firmware-flash.com , these guys are up to date with specs and data as well as patches and fixes for several firmware issues ie. FLASHING DOWN @ 1.31, i personally was in contact with a pioneer engineer simon, to be exact, when i flashed up to v 1.32 with my ao4/104 and lost support for ritek media, ritek conforms to forum standards, in V 1.31 the had 2x support in ao4, in v 1.32 support was removed completly, and return with problems in v 1.33. This was due to there lack of paying royalties to pioneer not a quality issue, pioneer was flooded with calls in reguards to this and issued support in v 1.33. GO TO THE LINK ABOVE and check out the dvd+-R/RW section and keep up with all the news. BTY they also revmoved support for cmd media like ritek/primedisc.
    Hasta luego
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  27. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I'll praise Pioneer and scold all you naysayers on this site!

    Here's why:

    You could say there are 3 kinds of DVD burning groups...

    1. High-end companies-like Hollywood, Microsoft, corporations, etc.
    2. Educational/corporate/industrial and Prosumer companies and individuals.
    3. Individual consumers, students, etc.

    Group #1 doesn't worry about this because they only use a burner to make one-offs and tester discs. Once their master is gold, they make stamped discs at a replicator--they can afford it. When they do use a burner, it more likely is a Pioneer S101 or S201 (R for "Authoring"), because of MUCH better compatibility.

    Group #3 wants to get the cheapest burner and the cheapest media available. They are mainly doing DVD backups, Sat/Broadcast timeshifting, or home videos. Oh, yeah-POSSIBLY ripped/pirate downloads (sorry, but those that do-you know who you are ). They are burning only to satisfy the needs of their PARTICULAR burner/DVDROM/SetTop setup, or those of their close friends/relatives. Once they have a combination that works ENOUGH, they're done. Often they seem to gravitate towards DVD+R/W, so that shouldn't affect Pioneer and the DVD-R camp anyway.

    Group #2 is the middle group. They got a business with some but NOT a lot of resources. Their end users are companies and consumers who may or may not be as familiar with DVD usage and variabilities. You know what their main concern is? COMPATIBILITY. They can't often do replication 'cuz the number of dubs is too small. They can't afford a S101 or S201/303 burner 'cuz they are stratospherically expensive. What's next? DVD-R (yeah, now you know where I stand on the +R/-R war). Now, most -R burners, until recently, have been Pioneers. So there's not alot of variability in burners, but there is with burner proggies and especially with media. MEDIA MEDIA MEDIA! That's the ticket. If you burn correctly with a Pioneer, most of the playback problems can probably be attributed to CHEAP media. Guess what that means to Group #2? Less business.
    It comes down to this--incompatibilities due to cheap media breeds dissatisfaction with Noobie consumers, which breeds confusion about the viability of DVD-+R/W, which breeds LESS requests for business. Or to put it more bluntly:
    YOU CHEAPO MEDIA PEOPLE ARE GIVING DVD RECORDING A BAD NAME!
    I want prices to go down like the next guy, but I only want to put out a disc that I can be assured will provide a positive consumer experience. We can still have fierce competition between Kodak, Pioneer, TDK, Verbatim, etc. and the price will still go down, but without alot of the flakiness in player support!

    I can see the flames from here.......

    Scott
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    8) :P

    I use Princo DVD-Rs, $1 ea in my Panasonic E-30 and my Pacific digital 310 DVD-R/ram burnner. So far good results with the Princo in either. Record, copy and play just fine in all DVD players I have have and friends have, so far.

    I do want either a Pioneer or Sony DVD burnner for the RW support and the CD-Rw supoport in one drive.

    This is getting to sound more ike a $oap Opera! As the DVD turnes?

    J E
    JD tinkerer pushin' 60,

    A real Life Enemy of the State, see Fed case #01-40080, Detroit.

    Computers, Electronics, vintage Audio, Photography Film/digital/3D, N-Scale RR, ,

    AKA the "Infamouse Joe Walker" ,Join the Navy & see (1/2) the world.
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  29. Member
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    Compitition between Kodak, Pioneer, TDK, Verbatim? LOL
    It s a myth. Leaders of this compagnies are friends in RL and dont want kill the golden eggs chicken.
    Have you seen a price competition with their CDR? no never.
    Prices fall because no name products.
    Consumable is the tresor chest. It s same for printer. Most are low price now but look the prices of cartriges.
    Pioneer flood because clients angry about bad media? Dont know where because call to their services is at a special number very expensive.

    Not saw my friend connected for the 1.10 firmware question. I wait like all.

    And for the little story. In parfume world, products stay at high price not because production cost but because low price make clients think it s bad quality and buy less.
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    I think Pioneer should list what media it works with, but NO disable any brand of media. What if next week a Pioneer approved/enabled media started arriving with massive defects/failures? What then.

    What if ALL the Pis-on-eer approved media are not even on teh market in a year or so from now? Your DVD burnner will be little more than a boat anchor!

    I want/expect a DVD burnner that does NOT limit media in any way shape or form, that way if brand x works better than brand P 2 years from now, I will still be able to use my burnner.

    There is nothing more constant in Computers than CHANGE!

    JD in the colonies and his tupence (2 cents) worth.



    JD tinkerer pushin' 60,

    A real Life Enemy of the State, see Fed case #01-40080, Detroit.

    Computers, Electronics, vintage Audio, Photography Film/digital/3D, N-Scale RR, ,

    AKA the "Infamouse Joe Walker" ,Join the Navy & see (1/2) the world.
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