VCD/SVCD/CVD none look great what am I doing wrong

[hardwork12]

This is what the problem is:

I tried CVD, SCVD and VCD encodings. They all have the same problem and has to deal with what looks like ghosting around images making the detail horrible. This is easiest to see If one looks around white characters like in the beginning credits of a movie. Around the letters it looks ghosty or maybe out of focus looking better describes it. When watching a movie the same defect causes very poor image quality most obvious when looking at faces (not closeups) the deatail is poor. Maybe this is what some call macroblocks I don't know but if it is how do I reduce it?

On My TV I can only play standard VCD's but I have encoded VCD at 3000 and 4000 kbits/sec and does get better when viewed on my PC but the image quality is still quite bad however.

Here is how I generated my CD's:

Smartriper to rip a DVD (eliminate my capture card from the problem)
DVD2AVI (frameserve to TMPGEnc).

VCD TMPGEnc VCD NTSC all default (352x240)
VCD TMPGEnc unlocked VCD NTSC and set bitrate to 3000 and 4000

SVCD TMPGEnc SVCD NTSC All defaults (480x480)

CVD TMPGEnc using the best settings I know how. Just a slight modification of Kwag's XCVD template. (352x480)

The VCD I tested on my TV was burned using both Nero and easyVCD. Put onto a CD-rw and CD-r. Looked the same on the TV as on the PC except magnified (the TV is a 53 inch). DVD player hooked up with component video.

Now I know the CVD's and SCVD's are interlaced and maybe that is why they do not look very good on my PC but the picture quality issue I described is the same for these interlaced formats so it does not seem that it is the interlacing making th PC image bad.

What am I doing wrong? Are there filters I need to be applying that I am not using?

EDIT: I took a look at the VCD NTSC sample on the tools page. I burned the CUE file using easyVCD and ran fine. The examples show the same problem that I am getting to some degree. Hard to tell if it is as bad. The mountain video is hard to see the problem as there is not much localized detail (like faces and words) but the general picture is somewhat degraded. The southpark clip is not all that telling either but definitely shows the issue around the eyes and mouths of the characters. Cartoons seem better in general but I think that since they are very much solid color they are not bitrate hogs (just a guess). Is what I see normal for VCD then and am expecting too much from it?

[the_macman]

I'm not sure how much blockiness you get considering you're using a DVD source, but it might be you have too much expectations from a VCD.

I'm personally using CBR 2520k with CCE when ripping from DVD to CVD and it produces excellent results. Afterall, on a normal DVD you get about 500k average, CVD is 1/2 D1, so, simple math = 2500k for the CVD encode.

Haven't really tried TMPGenc to encode a CVD, but would expect it to produce similar results.

Please also note that for CVD you should close GOPs and use a GOP structure of max 15 (PAL) or 18 (NTSC).

I'm also curious on what dvd player do you play your 400k VCDs as my Pioneer DV-444 certainly won't play any VCDs above 2600k?!

Hope this helps.

[macleod]

THis probably isnt the solution you are looking for, but it will tell you if you are doing anything wrong (everything that I have seen from your post shows you are doing things correctly), is download and use DVD2SVCD(freeware). After some quick clicking around, try to rip a DVD (it will turn it into a CVD) and see how that looks on your TV. If it looks like all of mine (which are fantastic) that will at least tell you that some part of your process is flawed or if the expectation is too high(?). Look in the tools section and download it (there is also DVD2VCD, which is also available.

If you do not have a copy of CCE 2.50(encoder), you can use TMPGENC and do multipass VBR, set the motion part to highest. Report back what happened and I will see if I or anyone else can help you.

with a 53 inch TV, you might as well forget VCD as the resolution and bit rate are going to produce bad results. On my 27" screen, it looks passible, I can only imagine how bad it must look on double the screen size. I have heard that on screens that size that DVD's will show blockiness, so it might be an expectation thing?? Let us know

[SingSing]

Go to a local library, and borrow a factory make VCD.
Play it and find out is the problem in the playback equipment
or encoding issues.

[hardwork12]

THANKS ALL. some great information here

the_macman

Please also note that for CVD you should close GOPs and use a GOP structure of max 15 (PAL) or 18 (NTSC).

I'm also curious on what dvd player do you play your 400k VCDs as my Pioneer DV-444 certainly won't play any VCDs above 2600k?!

For my CVD's I set them at Max Frame per GOP at 18 is this the same as close GOP at 18 that you recommend.?

I did not write too well I guess I have to stop staying up til 3:00am:

On My TV I can only play standard VCD's but I have encoded VCD at 3000 and 4000 kbits/sec and does get better when viewed on my PC but the image quality is still quite bad however.

What i meant was that I can only play "standard VCD" on my TV which is 1152Khz. The 3000 and 4000 I ran on my PC DVD player using PowerDVD (maybe not a good test But I thought since this format is not interlaced it was representative).

macleod


Maybe it is the big TV I will try it using the picture in picture format that brings the image down to approx a 27' TV. DVD's look superb in all respects (DVD player is the toshiba SD1200). Will try the DVD2VCD great idea will report back on that. Dowloaded DVD2SVCD could not find DVD2VCD. Could not figure out how to make a VCD using DVD2SVCD but the note there states that it does handle VCD

SingSing

In the USA I doubt I can find a VCD in the library or stores. Great idea will have to give a look but will definitely try DVD2VCD as macloed recommened that may hold the answer as well.

ALL:

All of my viewing has been centered around VCD since that is the only format I can play on my TV. My expectation for VCD just may be too high. My CVD and SCVD may look good enough but have to get a new DVD player so that will be this weekend somehow. Maybe that is the problem mostly and VCD is just not good enough for me. Viewing the CVD and SVCD with PowerDVD on my PC I guess is not a good test of these formats. Is this correct, I hope?

The answer to this may shed alot of light on my lack of understanding as to what to expect. For CVD what bitrate would be needed to give me at least standard VHS quality picture? I would be satisfied with that. I expected VCD to be VHS quality so this may be the issue here for me.

[the_macman]

In terms of video and audio quality, CVD is in between VCD 2.0 and DVD. It is using variable bitrate (VBR) MPEG-2 video up to 2.6 Mbps and either 1 or 2 MPEG-2 Layer II stereo audio streams.

Read SatStorm's article at the link below to see how CVD compares to VHS and S-VHS.

http://www.vcdhelp.com/forum/userguides/98177.php

[macleod]

macleod


Maybe it is the big TV I will try it using the picture in picture format that brings the image down to approx a 27' TV. DVD's look superb in all respects (DVD player is the toshiba SD1200). Will try the DVD2VCD great idea will report back on that. Dowloaded DVD2SVCD could not find DVD2VCD. Could not figure out how to make a VCD using DVD2SVCD but the note there states that it does handle VCD

The site for DVD2SVCD is: http://www.dvd2svcd.org/

The site for EASY VCD is: http://www.eazyvcd.tk/

You had mentioned in another part of your post about wanting to making VCD's and them being VHS quality. Other members may disagree, but I think you will be very dissatisifed with the results on a VCD. VCD bit rate is 1150, CVD bitrate is around 2500, and DVD can be 5-9000 or so. Just using the numbers, VCd quality is not going to be great (unless you are using a 9" screen ) I have a 27" inch TV and VCD's look "OK". The quality is less than a SP commercially made VHS tape, but better than a 10 year old EP(6 hour) tape. If you are wanting to get closer to DVD quality, I can't recommend CVD enough. SatStorm's CVD comparision really puts in in perspective to explain the different formats and why CVD makes sense.

[DJRumpy]

Just a question. When you frameserved to TMPGenc, did you use 'Force Film'?

You also need to be careful with TMPGenc, as the 'easy click filters' can be hard to resist for the initiate. They also tend to overly soften your MPEG, or blur it to reduce macroblocking. Both of which could be factor with your problem. What options are you using for TMPGenc under 'Video', 'Advanced', 'GOP', and 'Quantize Matrix'?

[hardwork12]

DJRumpy

I made sure that Force Film was not selected. I guess i don't know though is that the correct thing to do. I did not use force Film because I thought it would reduce my FPS rate from 29.97 to 24 but not sure on this.

UPDATE to ALL: I am definitely going to go the way of CVD I am convinced. I have a 10% off coupon at Besy Buy and will pick up a Philips DVD724AT this weekend and hope like the reports that is will play the CVD's and give it a go. I have til Jan 12th to return will get a GIFT receipt. Then I will try some XVCD, SVCD, XSVCD, CVD, XCVD to test the unit and also to see if I have learned how to do all these formats.

Some have stated that this unit has trouble with DVD-RW and maybe in 6 months or so I will get a DVD burner. This is also why I feel you are all correct and CVD is for me (with GOP at 18 NTSC). Think I got that right. Not sure where to post this so I will do it here. If someone out there, I am in the USA, could Burn a test DVD-RW I would appreciate it and of course pay for it Hope this is OK to ask here.

EDIT: I will report back here when I test the CVD. That should help tremendously can't wait. Will be a few days though leaving to watch my my daughter play college Ice Hockey and win of course . Appreciate all the help!!!

[hardwork12]

Hockey games delayed due to weather so I got a chance to see if the Philips DVD724 can run all the formats. This brought up a bunch of question/issues. YES it seems to work quite well so now I need to make sure my encodings are done correctly. I am going to start another post as it seems that I can run CVD now just not hooked up to my TV yet have to dig into the entertainment center to try that.

[SingSing]

Just a question. When you frameserved to TMPGenc, did you use 'Force Film'?

I do always use "force film" in DVD2AVI. If I don't use the option, and just always encode to NTSC film rate.

Will this work and give me sharper image ( no, i don't means that store )?

[DJRumpy]

Using Force Film simply ignores the pulldown flags in the source material, causing DVD2AVI to display,or serve it up in it's native 23.976 frame per second format. Leaving the option OFF when it should be ON, causes DVD2AVI to telecine the material to 29.976 Frames per second, much like your home player would. This makes your encoded file larger, and takes up more bitrate for the additional 5.994 frames per second.

Refer to the DVD2AVI section here
http://www.vcdhelp.com/mpeg2tovcd.htm
to determine if you should use the Force Film option. If your source is progressive, or film, then you save much needed bitrate for image quality, instead of wasting it on the extra 6 frames.